Can those that reject the Gospel in this life still receive Celestial Glory?

[LDS Guy 1986]

If you go through a new temple open house walkthrough they will openly tell you all of this information. So, if the temple endowment is the most up to date revelation concerning the plan of salvation, why is it explained that we progress through the kingdoms rather than be assigned to one permanently?

Did I ever say we are "assigned" kingdoms? Did I ever use the word assign period?

We inherit the kingdom that we are rewarded for our works. The problem is if we fail to do what is required of us in this life (which accepting the restored Gospel, if it is available in our lifetime, is the first requirement, since you cannot have faith in Christ if you do not accept his Gospel) we cannot receive the Celestial Glory.

You are not discussing as per the requirements of this forum, you are simply denying not discussing, and you are making personal comments (that I need to think things over). I would kindly request that you refrain from this please.

[Rob Osborn]

Did I ever say we are "assigned" kingdoms? Did I ever use the word assign period?

We inherit the kingdom that we are rewarded for our works. The problem is if we fail to do what is required of us in this life (which accepting the restored Gospel, if it is available in our lifetime, is the first requirement, since you cannot have faith in Christ if you do not accept his Gospel) we cannot receive the Celestial Glory.

You are not discussing as per the requirements of this forum, you are simply denying not discussing, and you are making personal comments (that I need to think things over). I would kindly request that you refrain from this please.

All I am getting at here is that the gospel is more simple than we think it to be. I am trying to get you to see the simpleness of it and some of the problems with how our current view currently stands.

Do you not find it at least interesting that the church has no official statement on whether or not a person can progress tot he celestial kingdom?

Take the Book of Mormon for example. It speaks rather plainly about the plan of salvation. A very thorough understanding of the plan of salvation as found in the BoM leaves one with two options only- salvation in the kingdom of God in heaven or into the lake of fire and brimstone. In the Revelation of St. John the Divine he speaks rather plainly also about only two states in the end- either in the lake of fire and brimstone or in the Holy city where both Christ and the Father dwell (celestial kingdom).

This coupled with the temple revelations concerning the true meaning of the 3 kingdoms leaves us truly wondering what section 76 really means. There are about a dozen anomalies in section 76 I can point out to you if you want. I have studied this a lot and have found a set of rather unique approaches to the section.

[zerinus]

If you do not accept that the revelations declares who inherits what glory, how can you accept the revelation?

Let me clarify again, this revelation only declares who inherits what so we are are fore warned of the consequences of our actions on Earth, these accusations of litmus tests or judging others is simple deflection to avoid saying you accept of reject this revelation IMO, either the revelations is correct and the qualifications for inheriting the different kingdoms are assigned by it, or it is false.

Trying to continually say the revelation isn't a standard to judge other's by is a moot point since this discussion has nothing to do with judgement.

The answer to that was given in post #46. No need to repeat it again.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Do you not find it at least interesting that the church has no official statement on whether or not a person can progress tot he celestial kingdom?

The Church does have an official statement D&C 76, unless reject the D&C as doctrine?

[LDS Guy 1986]

There are about a dozen anomalies in section 76 I can point out to you if you want. I have studied this a lot and have found a set of rather unique approaches to the section.

Seeing that I am here to discuss, it is obvious I would prefer to have a discussion instead of having someone state a some thing that can't be discussed, and expect me to know what they believe.

[mnn727]

Scripture and the Prophets have been very clear on this.

No, there are no 2nd chances at the Gospel - only HONEST First chances.

Did the person who rejected the gospel here really have an honest chance to hear/learn/accept it? Only God can judge that.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Scripture and the Prophets have been very clear on this.

No, there are no 2nd chances at the Gospel - only HONEST First chances.

Did the person who rejected the gospel here really have an honest chance to hear/learn/accept it? Only God can judge that.

I agree, you explained everything I feel but in more consisely and clearer than I could!

[Rob Osborn]

Seeing that I am here to discuss, it is obvious I would prefer to have a discussion instead of having someone state a some thing that can't be discussed, and expect me to know what they believe.

Let's look at Section 76 a little deeper then.

The first thing is why the section was even given. Section 76 is in answer to this verse-

17 And shall come forth; they who have done good in the resurrection of the just; and they who have done evil, in the resurrection of the unjust.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:17)

So what we are looking for is both the unjust/ungodly and the just/godly. Verses 40-49 explain both of these groups. The first group are the just- those who have been washed clean through the atonement by obedience to the gospel. The second group are the ungodly- those who are not redeemed and instead go down to hell. It is important to realize that these are the "only" two groups spoken of at judgment. Now another clue-

Verse 50 starts by speaking of all of the just- all those previously spoken of in verses 40-43.

50 And again we bear record

[LDS Guy 1986]

Let's look at Section 76 a little deeper then.

The first thing is why the section was even given. Section 76 is in answer to this verse-

17 And shall come forth; they who have done good in the resurrection of the just; and they who have done evil, in the resurrection of the unjust.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:17)

So what we are looking for is both the unjust/ungodly and the just/godly. Verses 40-49 explain both of these groups. The first group are the just- those who have been washed clean through the atonement by obedience to the gospel. The second group are the ungodly- those who are not redeemed and instead go down to hell. It is important to realize that these are the "only" two groups spoken of at judgment. Now another clue-

Verse 50 starts by speaking of all of the just- all those previously spoken of in verses 40-43.

50 And again we bear record

[Mark Beesley]

Like I have repeatedly said I am trying to set criteria for judging other people . . .

First off Christians don't judge people only Christ judges people.

(Does this mean Mormon's really aren't Christians???)

[BCSpace]

This is how I feel also, a lifetime of rejection of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a rejection of the Restored Gospel and disqualifies someone from attaining Celestial Glory, they can only attain Terrestrial Glory as outlined in the scriptures. I never thought that this would be such a divided issue but it appears from the unscientific poll I conducted that it is a very split issue.

Well I think part of the problem is that many have grown up with the idea that the Celestial is for LDS, the Terrestial is for good nonLDS people, the Telestial is for the wicked redeemed from hell. Even worse, some seem to have the notion that a nonLDS person (or ancient equivalent) can still inherit the Celestial. But a more careful reading of D&C 76 actually seems to show that only LDS will inherit the Celestial AND the Terrestial. Good Christians and other good nonLDS people will inherit the Telestial along with the wicked redeemed from hell (D&C 76:99-101). I'd say the reason for that is because by not accepting the Gospel as preached by the LDS Church, one has not improved one's estate and spiritually are no more advanced than those who spent a stint being punished in hell for their wickedness.

[Mark Beesley]

Well I think part of the problem is that many have grown up with the idea that the Celestial is for LDS, the Terrestial is for good nonLDS people, the Telestial is for the wicked redeemed from hell. Even worse, some seem to have the notion that a nonLDS person (or ancient equivalent) can still inherit the Celestial. But a more careful reading of D&C 76 actually seems to show that only LDS will inherit the Celestial AND the Terrestial. Good Christians and other good nonLDS people will inherit the Telestial along with the wicked redeemed from hell (D&C 76:99-101). I'd say the reason for that is because by not accepting the Gospel as preached by the LDS Church, one has not improved one's estate and spiritually are no more advanced than those who spent a stint being punished in hell for their wickedness.

Was Joseph Smith's brother, Alvin, LDS?

[LDS Guy 1986]

Was Joseph Smith's brother, Alvin, LDS?

Yes he is! He died without a knowledge of the restored Gospel (since it never existed in his lifetime) and was allowed to be taught the gospel in thespirit world and to accept his proxy ordiances performed in the temple. When he did this he converted to the Church and entered parodist from sprit world. See D&C 138 for a full explanation of this doctrine.

Rememer that Joseph's vision was of the future, not the present, but because of the bison we know that Alvin accepted the Gospel and became LDS in the spirit world and accepted his ordiances. I too have strong promptings from the sprirt that my Grandfather has accepted the restored Gospel he never heard in life and is waiting for me to do his temple work for him!

Thursday I will be baptized and confirmed for him! I am very excited! I know that we will be together again for eternity in celestial glory if I stay worthy of that reward.

[Mark Beesley]

Yes he is! He died without a knowledge of the restored Gospel (since it never existed in his lifetime) and was allowed to be taught the gospel in thespirit world and to accept his proxy ordiances performed in the temple. When he did this he converted to the Church and entered parodist from sprit world. See D&C 138 for a full explanation of this doctrine.

I like how everything is so cut and dried for you, and careful analysis becomes only a hinderance.

Rememer that Joseph's vision was of the future, not the present . . .

CFR (That means Call For Reference.) On what language are relying to conclude that Joseph Smith's vision was of the future?

D&C Section 137:6 says that Joseph Smith "marveled how it was that [Alvin] had obtained an inheritance in [the Celestial] kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins" He does not say "would obtain", but rather "had obtained." Sounds like a present state of being, not a future state of being, no?

Really, my question to BCSpace goes more to whether or not we can consider a person who accepts the Gospel after death a "Latter-day Saint." And what about Adam and Abraham? They were not Latter-day Saints. Sloppy language in arguments makes for poor arguments.

Thursday I will be baptized and confirmed for him! I am very excited! I know that we will be together again for eternity in celestial glory if I stay worthy of that reward.

Congratulations. It will be a special experience. My wife and I recently did work for her deceased father, grandparents and great-grandparents.

[BCSpace]

Was Joseph Smith's brother, Alvin, LDS?

Yes. He accepted the gospel in the afterlife.

[Mark Beesley]

Yes. He accepted the gospel in the afterlife.

Good analysis . . .

[BCSpace]

CFR (That means Call For Reference.) On what language are relying to conclude that Joseph Smith's vision was of the future?

D&C Section 137:6 says that Joseph Smith "marveled how it was that [Alvin] had obtained an inheritance in [the Celestial] kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins" He does not say "would obtain", but rather "had obtained." Sounds like a present state of being, not a future state of being, no?

Do you think he was resurrected then? If not, then it is a vision of the future or of a future promise of exaltation which is possible in LDS doctrine.

Really, my question to BCSpace goes more to whether or not we can consider a person who accepts the Gospel after death a "Latter-day Saint."

Yes. Perhaps I did not communicate that very well. I also included the "ancient equivalent"; Israelites, early (not yet apostate) Christians, etc. The Church is the same Church be it heavenly or earthly or given some other appellation

And what about Adam and Abraham? They were not Latter-day Saints.

Yes of course they were "LDS". It is the same Church.

Sloppy language in arguments makes for poor arguments.

My argument so far has been airtight for a number of years (a challenge to anyone to make me defend it).

Good analysis . . .

You can raise your eyes heavenward all you want, but unless you consider us swine, cast your pearls if you dare.....

[Rob Osborn]

Most of this is confusing because it mentions every verse except D&C 76:71-75, for all this to make sense one must cut and paste a lot, and ignore that all the scriptures including D&C 76 teach that we only have this life to prepare for eternity. This who didn't have access to the fullness of the gospel in this life can recieve it in the next if they would of received it should they've tarried until the fullness of the Gospel was available to them. Your explanation leaves more questions than answers in my opinion and goes far, far, away from all scriptures that the LDS Church accepts. This is not inspired revelation so I must stay with the revelation of God which says we have tuisnlife to prepare for eternity. There is further learning and progression in the spirit world but that is dependent on the needed preparations of mortal life.

To me the endowment ceremony as I understand it represents the three phases of life pre mortal and Mortal life(Telestial Room), spirit world life (Terrestrial Room) and Eternal Life (Celestial Room). I have yet to be endows so I can't comment on the ceremony no would I because of it's sacred nature. It seems a dangerous to want to replace almost 6,000 years of scripture recorded by dozens of inspired men that all say this is the only time we have to prepare to meet our maker, with such radical theology base solely on the opinion of men.

Also I have a problem with using and ordiance to redefine the truth of the scriptures, ordiances are symbols not revelation of truth. The progression from room to room, seems to me to better represent our progression from premortal to mortal to spirit to eternity, or to serve as a reminder of what we can inherit.

I feel that trying to impose this on the endowment is like the Catholics that believe the bread and wine becomes blood and flesh in your stomach. Your imposing faith in symbols and this is dangerous to do least we start following idols.

As I read this all I can think of is the story in the Book of Mormon where te people were taught that they can live however they want, and God will simply beat them a little bit then let them into heaven (celestial glory). I can not accost such teachings as true is contradicts the Holy Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Peatl of Great Price as I know them. Such a believe in my opinion cannot be right, I understand you accept this but your need for complex and confusing explanations to explain the simple and straight forward words of the Lord in D&C 76:71-75 makes me believe that this cannot be right.

All things being equal the simplest answer is usually correct. This is far to complex for me to begin to decipher.

I wish you well with your journey but I am and will remain skeptical of teachings that contradict the scriptures.

To touch briefly on the temple on last time. The wording is very specific in the temple and it specifically states that the world room is made to represent our actual world we now live in. there is no mistaking that fact. Also specific is that it is clearly explained that the world in which we now live in is the telestial kingdom. I understand you not wanting to discuss this in any more detail, but those are the facts concerning the world room, there is no mistake in the wording.

As for this life the time to prepare, let me bring up two separate scriptures that entirely contradict each other- one in the BoM and the other in the D&C-

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

(Book of Mormon | Alma 34:33 - 35)

From reading these verses it seems very clear that repentance after death is wholly impossible and that Satan will seal you his for all eternity. It says no labor can be performed after death. Labors are specific to meaning ordinances and making covenants. Now let's read in the D&C where it entirely contradicts this point of view-

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 138:31 - 34)

Not only do these verses say it is possible to repent after death, it also says that labors can be performed after death and that Satan doesn't really seal you his. So, now it appears that our scriptures do not mesh, why is this? It is because the BoM prophet was speaking his opinions on the matter and not speaking the literal truth. This tells us something important about the scriptures. It tells us that revelation comes line upon line and that sometimes prophets get things wrong.

How else does one explain the two sets of scriptures?

[LDS Guy 1986]

I like how everything is so cut and dried for you, and careful analysis becomes only a hinderance.

CFR (That means Call For Reference.) On what language are relying to conclude that Joseph Smith's vision was of the future?

D&C Section 137:6 says that Joseph Smith "marveled how it was that [Alvin] had obtained an inheritance in [the Celestial] kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins" He does not say "would obtain", but rather "had obtained." Sounds like a present state of being, not a future state of being, no?

Really, my question to BCSpace goes more to whether or not we can consider a person who accepts the Gospel after death a "Latter-day Saint." And what about Adam and Abraham? They were not Latter-day Saints. Sloppy language in arguments makes for poor arguments.

Congratulations. It will be a special experience. My wife and I recently did work for her deceased father, grandparents and great-grandparents.

The standard interpretation tells us that the vision is of future events, this is taught in the gospel principals manual I believe, when I get home I can look it up unless someone beats me too it.

Abraham and Adam are not Latter-day Saints, they are ancient Saints or early saints. Latter-day Saints refers to saints from this dispensation. The followers of Christ from all dispensations are simply the Saints.

As far as you accusation that I am too black and white. I take it as more of a complement, I consider everything that is not outside the scriptures as possible, anything that conflicts with the fullness of the gospel I acknowledge, based on it's merits, but do not accept as truth.

There is a lot of decipt in the world, the deciver had many forms and he loves to snare men in his lies. I am always skeptical of change, change needs to happen slowly and in a controlled manner after testing the idea (or pondering it) leads you to believe through the Holy Ghost that it is the correct thing to do.

Change is good but change is also the perfect opertunity for Satan to sneak some falsehoods in as well!

[Mark Beesley]

The standard interpretation tells us that the vision is of future events, this is taught in the gospel principals manual I believe, when I get home I can look it up unless someone beats me too it.

Why wait until you get home? Download the Gospel Library App on your iPhone 4 and, voil

[LDS Guy 1986]

To touch briefly on the temple on last time. The wording is very specific in the temple and it specifically states that the world room is made to represent our actual world we now live in. there is no mistaking that fact. Also specific is that it is clearly explained that the world in which we now live in is the telestial kingdom. I understand you not wanting to discuss this in any more detail, but those are the facts concerning the world room, there is no mistake in the wording.

As for this life the time to prepare, let me bring up two separate scriptures that entirely contradict each other- one in the BoM and the other in the D&C-

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

(Book of Mormon | Alma 34:33 - 35)

From reading these verses it seems very clear that repentance after death is wholly impossible and that Satan will seal you his for all eternity. It says no labor can be performed after death. Labors are specific to meaning ordinances and making covenants. Now let's read in the D&C where it entirely contradicts this point of view-

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 138:31 - 34)

Not only do these verses say it is possible to repent after death, it also says that labors can be performed after death and that Satan doesn't really seal you his. So, now it appears that our scriptures do not mesh, why is this? It is because the BoM prophet was speaking his opinions on the matter and not speaking the literal truth. This tells us something important about the scriptures. It tells us that revelation comes line upon line and that sometimes prophets get things wrong.

How else does one explain the two sets of scriptures?

This is too easy, Alma is taking to those with a knowledge of the fullness of the Gospel, they only have this life to prepare. Once this life is over they can still accept the gospel in the next life and inherit terrestrial glory but never celestial glory. If they reject Christ and his gospel in both the spirit world and in life they inherit telestial glory. D&C 76 explains this clearly, D&C 76 pertains to those who come live and have the fullness of the gospel presented to them to accept or reject, in my opinion, the definition of accepting or rejecting the Gospel is unclear and ultimately it is Christ decision who accepted and who rejected.

For those and only, those who lived there entire life without access to the fullness of the Gosple (in this dispensation the restored Gospel) they qualify for being able to recieve and accept the gospel in the next life as described in D&C 138. They can accept proxy ordiances done on there behalf by there desendents in temples to recieve celestial glory. They can do this because they never had the fullness of the Gospel to accept or reject in there lifetimes. Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ being just and merciful, cannot punish someone for something they had no contol over, if the fullness of the Gospel wasn't available to them they have a chance to accept it after death.

If you have the fullness of the gospel available in your lifetime then you do not qualify since you had the chance to accept or reject it, in this lifetime. Those who can accept it in this lifetime must do so, you cannot procrastinate the day of your salvation if you have access to the fullness of the Gospel and the priesthood to have the saving ordiances performed.

The same applies to those who died without ever being able to be sealed or endowed in this life even though they were baptized and members of the Church, because they could not make it to a temple to be sealed. If they couldn't reach the temple becuase they couldn't afford to go or there health was too poor, ect, then they can have there remaining ordiances performed by proxy to accept in the spirit world.

President Woodruff performed a proxy baptism for a old friend of his who heard and accepted the restored gospel (and actually knew that it was comming through a dream he had) but died of old age before an elder could get to him to perform his baptism and conformation. Since his lack of odriances is no fault of his own, he can recieve proxy ordiances and still attain celestial glory.

If you do not accept the Gospel or do not have the proper ordiances performed when you have access to them there is no second chance.

Really ordiances for the dead isn't a second chance for those who recieve the ordiances, it is there first chance since they didn't har access to the ordiances and/or the fullness of the gospel in there lifetime.

Trying to justify procrastinating salvation or rejection of the Restored Gospel and Jesus Christ in this life is a mockery of Christ and the atonement in my opinion.

There is not contradtiction in the two verses if you do not take them outbid context. D&C 138 only applies to those who had no access to the Gospel and/or the ordiances of salvation. If you have access to the Restored Gospel and the ordiances of salvation then you cannot qualify for D&C 138 and fall into D&C 76 and Alma 34:33-35.

This complements the teachings of the OT, NT, BoM, D&C, and PoGP, these multiple testaments of this provide convincing evidenc that this is a true teaching.

What is presented in your position conflicts with the OT, NT, BoM, D&C, and PoGP, in my opinion this tells me it is not based in truth.

If there was any contextual evidence to support your position I could give it some weight (I still wouldn't accept it since it has little weight compared to the mountian of weight for the literal writing of D&C 67) the only thing that could make me accept you position is a revelation of the Lord given through his 15 Apostles (with a unanimous decision) and sustained by the membership in General Conference, as we have done to vet revelation since the early days of the Church. Even then it would take much prayer and fasting to accept such a revelation that conflicts so much with all the standard works, but I have faith that if it is the will of the Lord that the Holy Ghost will confirm that the revelation is truth.

This what the the scriptures, teachings of the modern prophets, and the Holy Ghost tell me is truth. There is nothing short of a bonifide revelation to the living prophet that can make me doubt this doctrine.

The proof is in the pudding as they say, IMO

[LDS Guy 1986]

Why wait until you get home? Download the Gospel Library App on your iPhone 4 and, voil

[Mark Beesley]

To touch briefly on the temple on last time. The wording is very specific in the temple and it specifically states that the world room is made to represent our actual world we now live in. there is no mistaking that fact. Also specific is that it is clearly explained that the world in which we now live in is the telestial kingdom. I understand you not wanting to discuss this in any more detail, but those are the facts concerning the world room, there is no mistake in the wording.

Some 25-30 years ago, when I was an Elder's Quorum, one of the Elders raised the question of "Kingdom Jumping" in a quorum meeting. Back then I knew more than I know now and promptly shot down the idea as non-scriptural. During the ensuing years as I have studied, pondered, and attended the temple, I have had to accept that I don't know as much as I used to.

One scripture in particular lends itself quite nicely to those who want to read ambiguities into the scriptures, and that is D&C 19:6-12. What these verses have taught me is that the Lord tells us what is best for us, in a way that should provoke us to righteousness. It also tells us that the scriptures are not always entirely clear. For example, the Lord says in verse 6, "Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment." Yet, 2 Nephi 19:16 says,

And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end.

It seems like Nephi was trying to teach us that the torment has no end.

Today, if I were Elder's Quorum President and the same question were raised, my response would be, "I don't know, but I suggest you live your life as though there were no such possibility."

[Mark Beesley]

I said I believed it was in Gospel Principals, if it isn't then I am mistaken about that but I am pretty sure that it is a teaching of the Church, found in on offical manual.Your sarcasm and hostility is still childish. If seems you have still not learned that someone disagreeing with you is not grounds for such inappropriate behavior, it is also in direct conflict with the teachings of Jesus Christ. I ask you to refrain from such outburst in the forum per the rules we all accept to post here.

For being a veteran of Iraq, you sure are touchy. But you're right. I should be less sarcastic. I apologize.

(But you're still wrong about what happened on the Mount of Transfiguration.)

[LDS Guy 1986]

.Today, if I were Elder's Quorum President and the same question were raised, my response would be, "I don't know, but I suggest you live your life as though there were no such possibility."

This is a great and wise response, a wonderful contribution to the thread.

Thank you for sharing this!