Can those that reject the Gospel in this life still receive Celestial Glory?

[Jeff K.]

In the end it is our own spirit of truth that will condemn us. If we honestly don't understand what we are offered, and the spirit never truly touches us then we of course will eventually be well informed as to the truth of the matter and given an honest choice. Even when a missionary is before us testifying with the spirit of truth, but we remain untouched. There is still opportunity to choose.

However if we have been touched by the spirit of truth, and the Holy Ghost has born witness to us that the words are true. Our percentages as to still having a choice drop precipitously.

[zerinus]

As I have said before the big question is what is rejection, how would you define rejecting the restored Gospel?

Perhaps a definition can be gleaned from this verse:

D&C 84

:

41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and

altogether turneth therefrom

, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.

I think the difficulty is not so much in finding a definition, as in detecting if someone has fulfilled it. A definition is not that difficult to arrive at. If we stick closely to the wording of the scriptures, a reliable definition can be formulated. But can that definition be used reliably as a litmus test to see if someone has fulfilled the condition or not, that is what I believe we may not be in a position to achieve, except perhaps by a special mandate from the Lord.

We may be able to use that definition to warn others of the consequences of their actions; but determining who has fulfilled it and who hasn't, or who has gone beyond the point of no return and who hasn't, is another matter.

[Rob Osborn]

Now this is an obviously taking the verse out of context, you know that the Lord is referring to those who have reached the age of accountability here. Also Section 137 covers this since a child cannot have a knowledge of the Gospel so they can receive it in the spirit world and still attain Celestial Glory.

This also applies to the mentally handicapped and those who died without ever hearing the message of the restored Gospel.

This is clearly presented in previous posts.

I am not so sure I am taking it out of context. If you read the verses on the terrestrial it describes several groups. First are those who die without law. This group cannot be judged by the law because they never lived with the law. When they are dead they go back and reside with God in paradise. The next group it describes are those who were under law, meaning that they were under the law of sin's penalties. These souls are those who went to spirit prison and were taught the gospel there. The other group are those who were not valiant in their testimony of Christ. These include members of the church who broke covenants or were not obedient in God's commandments.

So, from reading those scriptures it describes at least 3 different groups. Of particular interest is the first group- those who died without law. Here is what the BoM has to say about those who die without law-

22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing

[Rob Osborn]

I agree that HF would never set us up for failure nor would he punish us for others sins, I don't believe this is what the question is asking.

What it is asking is if someone rejects the restored Gospel there entire life, can they receive Celestial Glory.

I feel that D&C 76 and D&C 137, clearly say no, that rejection of Christ in this life, which is to reject his Gospel means one can never enter Celestial Glory, they can only receive Terrestrial Glory.

The "reject Christ in this life but accept him after", "Those deceived by the cleverness of men" from 76 and "Those who died without a knowledge" in 137 all seem to point that if you hear the message of the restored Gospel in this life and reject it you can never receive a fullness of joy. This is also consistent with the teachings in the BoM that this life is our time to prepare to meet our God.

I feel that Baptism for the Dead and the other proxy ordinances combined with those who receive the gospel in the Spirit World, is not a second chance to accept the Gospel you rejected in this life and enter Celestial Glory, like some suggest. It appears to me if you go by the scriptures that it is meant only for those who never had access to the restored gospel in there lifetime, now of course how does one really know if parents or grandparents ever heard the message of the restored Gospel, if they passed away when you were young or before you were born?

Section 138 is pretty specific in saying that preaching the gospel to the spirits in prison is exactly for those who rejected it in mortality and fro those who had no knowledge of it. It is also specific in saying that after they have paid their penalty (those who rejected it in mortality) and accepted the ordinances of the temple they can be released from that spirit prison. This has paramount meaning here. For instance- why must all the dead repent, be baptized and recieve all the ordinances of the temple in order to be released from that prison? There are none excluded- none exempt from this command in order to be released. If we go back to section 76 we gain a clue as to why this is. Read-

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us

[LDS Guy 1986]

Section 138 is pretty specific in saying that preaching the gospel to the spirits in prison is exactly for those who rejected it in mortality and fro those who had no knowledge of it. It is also specific in saying that after they have paid their penalty (those who rejected it in mortality) and accepted the ordinances of the temple they can be released from that spirit prison. This has paramount meaning here. For instance- why must all the dead repent, be baptized and recieve all the ordinances of the temple in order to be released from that prison? There are none excluded- none exempt from this command in order to be released. If we go back to section 76 we gain a clue as to why this is. Read-

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us

[ERayR]

In another thread an interesting topic can up, can those who reject Jesus Christ and his restored Gospel in this world receive exaltation through accepting it in the Spirit World?

I feel that D&C 76: 71-75 is clear of this topic, " . . .we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament. Behold, these are they who died without law; And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh; Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men."

What are your thoughts?

Can people reject Christ there whole mortal life, accept him in the spirit world and recieve Celestial Glory?

Or are they only able to receive Terrestrial Glory?

Yes.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I am not so sure I am taking it out of context. If you read the verses on the terrestrial it describes several groups. First are those who die without law. This group cannot be judged by the law because they never lived with the law. When they are dead they go back and reside with God in paradise. The next group it describes are those who were under law, meaning that they were under the law of sin's penalties. These souls are those who went to spirit prison and were taught the gospel there. The other group are those who were not valiant in their testimony of Christ. These include members of the church who broke covenants or were not obedient in God's commandments.

So, from reading those scriptures it describes at least 3 different groups. Of particular interest is the first group- those who died without law. Here is what the BoM has to say about those who die without law-

22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing

[SilverKnight]

As I said in the other thread, I absolutely believe that anyone can repent, in this life or the next, and ultimately be exalted.

There is no 'time limit' on repentance due to the nature of the atonement, eternal progression, and the concept of an omnibenevolent God.

Here are some quotes supporting this idea:

I am not a strict constructionalist, believing that we seal our eternal progress by what we do here. It is my belief that God will save all of His children that he can: and while, if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the same status, so to speak, as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, the unrighteous will have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they, too, may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God, have climbed to those eternities that are to come

-J. Reuben Clark, Church News, 23 April 1960, p. 3

It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress; and thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God’s living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase

-James E. Talmage, The Articles of Faith [1899 edition] pp. 420-421

Some years ago I was in Washington, D.C., with President Harold B. Lee. Early one morning he called me to come into his hotel room. He was sitting in his robe reading Gospel Doctrine, by President Joseph F. Smith, and he said, Listen to this!

Jesus had not finished his work when his body was slain, neither did he finish it after his resurrection from the dead; although he had accomplished the purpose for which he then came to the earth, he had not fulfilled all his work. And when will he? Not until he has redeemed and saved every son and daughter of our father Adam that have been or ever will be born upon this earth to the end of time, except the sons of perdition. That is his mission. We will not finish our work until we have saved ourselves, and then not until we shall have saved all depending upon us; for we are to become saviors upon Mount Zion, as well as Christ. We are called to this mission.

There is never a time,the Prophet Joseph Smith taught,when the spirit is too old to approach God. All are within the reach of pardoning mercy, who have not committed the unpardonable sin.

Boyd K. Packer, The Brilliant Morning of Forgiveness, Ensign, Nov. 1995

[LDS Guy 1986]

As I said in the other thread, I absolutely believe that anyone can repent, in this life or the next, and ultimately be exalted.

There is no 'time limit' on repentance due to the nature of the atonement, eternal progression, and the concept of an omnibenevolent God.

Here are some quotes supporting this idea:

None of this is doctrine though, the scriptures are very clear on the status of those who reject the restored Gospel in this life. Now if any of these beliefs (and in each case they are listed as beliefs not doctrine) were accepted as revelation by the proper process I would say you have a reasonable argument. They are not though and this means IMO that revelation trumps beliefs of apostles and prophets.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Yes.

Yes, they can or yes they can't?

Also if you don't mind why do you feel this way?

[LDS Guy 1986]

As I said in the other thread, I absolutely believe that anyone can repent, in this life or the next, and ultimately be exalted.

There is no 'time limit' on repentance due to the nature of the atonement, eternal progression, and the concept of an omnibenevolent God.

Here are some quotes supporting this idea:

You last quote says all who have not commited the unpardonable sin can be saved.

The unpardonable sins are murder and denying the holy ghost.

Now the Holy Ghost witnesses the the Gospel is true and if one rejects that witness then they are also rejecting the Holy Ghost as well as the Restored Gospel. Which wools mean they can't be allowed into the celestial kingdom.

[SilverKnight]

None of this is doctrine though, the scriptures are very clear on the status of those who reject the restored Gospel in this life.

Then the scriptures are wrong.

Now if any of these beliefs (and in each case they are listed as beliefs not doctrine) were accepted as revelation by the proper process I would say you have a reasonable argument.

Again, in my opinion the modern mormon thought, including the sermons of latter day leaders, and the personal beliefs of the members themselves, constitute mormon doctrine - and always take precedence over scripture. The more ancient the scripture is - the less relevant it is. Modern revelation trumps past revelation every time.

They are not though and this means IMO that revelation trumps beliefs of apostles and prophets.

The line between revelation and personal beliefs of prophets is finer than you think.

[SilverKnight]

You last quote says all who have not commited the unpardonable sin can be saved.

The unpardonable sins are murder and denying the holy ghost.

Now the Holy Ghost witnesses the the Gospel is true and if one rejects that witness then they are also rejecting the Holy Ghost as well as the Restored Gospel. Which wools mean they can't be allowed into the celestial kingdom.

You have very flawed understanding of what it means to deny the holy ghost as it relates to the unpardonable sin:

Denial of the Holy Ghost

Denying the Holy Ghost requires more than a typical hardening of the heart to Holy Ghost[6] and the testimony that comes through faith alone. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that in order to sin against the Holy Ghost, a person "must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened to him, and to deny the Plan of Salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it." [7] When this statement is compared to Paul's description of the unpardonable sin in Hebrews 6:4-6 and Doctrine and Covenants 76:35, one can get a sense of the extensive knowledge required to commit the sin of denying the Holy Ghost. It requires a special knowledge, beyond faith, that the Savior is real, that he is the Son of God, etc. By rejecting him after having this sure knowledge, it is as if we would actually crucify the Savior again, which would be to shed the most innocent of blood. [8] after having the most explicit knowledge. This is where those who sin against the Holy Ghost differ from the Roman soldiers, who crucified the Savior. Their belief in his divinity, if in fact they did believe, would have been based on faith; the knowledge required to deny the Holy Ghost appears to be an actual knowledge of the reality and divinity of the Savior. The nature of the extensive knowledge required to deny the testimony of the Holy Ghost is such that few obtain such a testimony in their probationary state.

[LDSToronto]

Rejecting the prophets is not the same as rejecting the gospel. Oliver Cowdery ultimately rejected that Jospeh Smith was a prophet of God, he and many others came to believe that Jospeh was a fallen prophet.

...

Rejecting a Prophet, is not the same as rejecting Christ!

LDS Guy, you aren't so bad after all.

H.

[Rob Osborn]

None of this is doctrine though, the scriptures are very clear on the status of those who reject the restored Gospel in this life. Now if any of these beliefs (and in each case they are listed as beliefs not doctrine) were accepted as revelation by the proper process I would say you have a reasonable argument. They are not though and this means IMO that revelation trumps beliefs of apostles and prophets.

Lets go with what you said about revelation then. The temple endowment ceremony is the most current revelation we have regarding the plan of salvation. The church teaches officially that the endowment is the plan of salvation. Here are some excerts from the LDS Manual "Endowed from on High: Temple preparation seminar teacher's manual"-

Begin the lesson by explaining that the temple is a spiritual school that helps us learn more about the purpose of life and the plan of salvation.

President Gordon B. Hinckley said that the temple

[LDS Guy 1986]

Perhaps a definition can be gleaned from this verse:

D&C 84

:

41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and

altogether turneth therefrom

, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.

I think the difficulty is not so much in finding a definition, as in detecting if someone has fulfilled it. A definition is not that difficult to arrive at. If we stick closely to the wording of the scriptures, a reliable definition can be formulated. But can that definition be used reliably as a litmus test to see if someone has fulfilled the condition or not, that is what I believe we may not be in a position to achieve, except perhaps by a special mandate from the Lord.

We may be able to use that definition to warn others of the consequences of their actions; but determining who has fulfilled it and who hasn't, or who has gone beyond the point of no return and who hasn't, is another matter.

This is not a rejection of the Gospel but a rejection of your covenants.

Like I have repeatedly said I am trying to set criteria for judging other people, just see what people think about D&C 76:71-75 and D&C 137

[Calm]

Then the scriptures are wrong....

Again, in my opinion the modern mormon thought, including the sermons of latter day leaders, and the personal beliefs of the members themselves, constitute mormon doctrine - and always take precedence over scripture. The more ancient the scripture is - the less relevant it is. Modern revelation trumps past revelation every time.

And there there is the fact that it's usually interpretation of scripture to begin with that we are discussing no matter how definite someone is that their interpretation is the only reasonable or accurate one (and in this case I am including LDS Guy 1986 and anyone else who might state that the correct interpretation of scriptures must be a very specific one).

I would agree with your position for the most part, after all God has said we are being taught line upon line and one of our articles of faith states that there are many things yet to be revealed (and thus many things have been revealed since ancient scriptures have been recorded) and last, LDS doctrine has never included a statement about the inerrancy of scriptures. Anyone who claims that scriptures can never be wrong is ignoring a very basic belief of LDS about how scripture is produced through mortal agency and therefore may have errors...as stated quite a few times by those who wrote the scriptures themselves.

[LDS Guy 1986]

And there there is the fact that it's usually interpretation of scripture to begin with that we are discussing no matter how definite someone is that their interpretation is the only reasonable or accurate one (and in this case I am including LDS Guy 1986 and anyone else who might state that the correct interpretation of scriptures must be a very specific one).

I would agree with your position for the most part, after all God has said we are being taught line upon line and one of our articles of faith states that there are many things yet to be revealed (and thus many things have been revealed since ancient scriptures have been recorded) and last, LDS doctrine has never included a statement about the inerrancy of scriptures. Anyone who claims that scriptures can never be wrong is ignoring a very basic belief of LDS about how scripture is produced through mortal agency and therefore may have errors...as stated quite a few times by those who wrote the scriptures themselves.

I agree that scripture isn't inerrant but unless we recieve new revelation we go with what we have. The opinions of men cannot override the revelations of God, until there is offical revelation saying D&C was in error and that those who reject the Gospel in this life can recieve celestial glory.

The verse is clear and precise, it is revelation and it makes sense and complements the rest of the scriptures. I highly doubt (but accept that it is possible) for the OT, NT, BoM, and D&C to all be inncorrect on an issue.

[Rob Osborn]

I agree that scripture isn't inerrant but unless we recieve new revelation we go with what we have. The opinions of men cannot override the revelations of God, until there is offical revelation saying D&C was in error and that those who reject the Gospel in this life can recieve celestial glory.

The verse is clear and precise, it is revelation and it makes sense and complements the rest of the scriptures. I highly doubt (but accept that it is possible) for the OT, NT, BoM, and D&C to all be inncorrect on an issue.

So what do we do about the temple endowment ceremony that adds to our knowledge about the three kingdoms and our progression through each one?

[LDS Guy 1986]

So what do we do about the temple endowment ceremony that adds to our knowledge about the three kingdoms and our progression through each one?

I don't understand what you are asking?

The temple endowment ceremony was received by revelation as far as I know, I have yet to receive my endowment, so I cannot comment on it much.

[zerinus]

Like I have repeatedly said I am trying to set criteria for judging other people, just see what people think about D&C 76:71-75 and D&C 137

The answer to that I should have thought was obvious enough. The said revelations teach there are certain conditions that need to be met before someone qualifies for entering either one of the three kingdoms of glory; and if he does not fulfill the required conditions he will not get there. So I don't know exactly what was the purpose of your question.

[LDS Guy 1986]

The answer to that I should have thought was obvious enough. The said revelations teach there are certain conditions that need to be met before someone qualifies for entering either one of the three kingdoms of glory; and if he does not fulfill the required conditions he will not get there. So I don't know exactly what was the purpose of your question.

The purpose is why do you or do not accept the revelation of who inherits the Terrestrial Kingdom from D&C 76:74-75, "Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men."

We receive a testimony of Jesus through accepting the restored Gospel, so if people reject the restored Gospel in this life they cannot receive a testimony in the flesh and inherit Terrestrial Glory. This is the condition set up by D&C 76:74-75.

I have found that some people reject this revelation, for various reasons I just want to know why you do or do not reject this revelation?

[zerinus]

The purpose is why do you or do not accept the revelation of who inherits the Terrestrial Kingdom from D&C 76:74-75, "Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men."

We receive a testimony of Jesus through accepting the restored Gospel, so if people reject the restored Gospel in this life they cannot receive a testimony in the flesh and inherit Terrestrial Glory. This is the condition set up by D&C 76:74-75.

I have found that some people reject this revelation, for various reasons I just want to know why you do or do not reject this revelation?

I don't reject the revelation. I only reject using it as a litmus test to determine who goes where.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I don't reject the revelation. I only reject using it as a litmus test to determine who goes where.

If you do not accept that the revelations declares who inherits what glory, how can you accept the revelation?

Let me clarify again, this revelation only declares who inherits what so we are are fore warned of the consequences of our actions on Earth, these accusations of litmus tests or judging others is simple deflection to avoid saying you accept of reject this revelation IMO, either the revelations is correct and the qualifications for inheriting the different kingdoms are assigned by it, or it is false.

Trying to continually say the revelation isn't a standard to judge other's by is a moot point since this discussion has nothing to do with judgement.

[Rob Osborn]

I don't understand what you are asking?

The temple endowment ceremony was received by revelation as far as I know, I have yet to receive my endowment, so I cannot comment on it much.

Well, it is not secret or anything- pretty common knowledge to all who go on an open house walkthrough of a temple. The endowment ceremony takes place going through three rooms. You start out in the world room. Here in this room you learn that our current world is the telestial kingdom. In this room you make certain and specific covenants. Then from there you go into the next room called the terrestrial kingdom room. There you learn more and make more specific covenants. Then from there you are presented at the veil and then enter into the celestial kingdom room.

If you go through a new temple open house walkthrough they will openly tell you all of this information. So, if the temple endowment is the most up to date revelation concerning the plan of salvation, why is it explained that we progress through the kingdoms rather than be assigned to one permanently?

Think about that for a bit, it may change your perceptions.