Are Mormons Really Christian?

[Hughes]

Does anybody else find it interesting that he puts the Creeds first, above everything else?

If you read the link, that is the order on Wikipedia. I didn't alter it.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

On each point of orthodoxy?

Really?

Is it your position that "orthodox" Christianity denies (inter alia) the divinity of the Father, the sonship of Christ and the efficacy of the Atonement?

Wow. Orthodox Christianity must be even more apostate than I thought.

Hence the expression, "Invincible ignorance."

Earth to Hughes! Earth to Hughes! Come in Hughes! The lights are on; is anyone home?

Listen carefully, Hughes: The Saints are not "changing the definition of Christian, in the historic sense."

What we are doing is relying upon "the definition of Christian, in the historic sense."

And if you weren't so triumphantly ignorant, you'd know that; and knowing it, you'd be able to avoid embarrassing yourself so comprehensively.

If you knew anything at all about what you so ignorantly pontificate about, you'd know that the ad hoc theological tests you've cobbled together in a dishonest attempt to define us out of Christianity were never considered to be definitive of the "historic" meaning of the word "Christian."

They may or may not be legitimate methods for determining something called "orthodoxy;" but Hughes, if you understand anything at all about how language works, then you understand that modifiers like "orthodox" necessarily denote subsets of the whole.

It doesn't matter if you want to deny that we are (by your lights) "orthodox"; the fact is that "orthodox Christianity" must of necessity be something less than all of Christianity. Just like "male Americans" are something less than all Americans.

Now I seriously suggest you read the book I linked to -- it's online, and it's free -- before you embarrass yourself further. The lame arguments you're appealing to are comprehensively dealt with therein.

Regards,

Pahoran

What a delightful post. I simply had a great time reading it. I could not have said what you said any better either.

[mfbukowski]

She says that God treats us as individuals and no one should think that they have to follow her particular path. She made clear that she was not proselytizing or acting as a missionary for her church, in writing this book. She says, that she has read hundreds of ND experiences and not one of them are the same, which she explained was because God treats us as individuals and speaks to us on our own level of understanding.

Incidentally and for the record on this particular thread- I think that this is totally true, and is why it is that different people get different answers as to what path they should be on. I know that the LDS church IS in fact the "one true path" but it took me long enough to get here, thorough enough study and work, to know that I could not have found these truths without having taken several religious turns to get here- ALL of which I believe were absolutely necessary for me to eventually wind up where God wanted me all along- right here in the LDS church.

When I look back on my life, I see him leading me through twists and turns on the highway I needed to travel to get here- and every twist was necessary.

I think we need to learn that principle, especially for our discourse on this board, that others could very well be correct that they are where God wants them to be (for now) even though we disagree on doctrine and dogma, and that we need to listen better to others and not "pigeonhole" them as "anti's" because they express opinions critical to our doctrine. I have myself been critical of other doctrines I used to hold myself, and I think that is a tendency we all have once we have changed habits, to be overly critical of those who still have our old habits or beliefs. And that's just not right!

I had a phone conversation with someone on this very thread yesterday (you know who you are) which did not go all that well, but at least I think I learned that principle from that conversation. Also, I will resume that conversation with you any time you like- I left you a message to that effect-

But the bottom line is that I pledge to try to do better in listening to individual positions and understanding that regardless of whether or not you consider me a "Christian", I will do my best to try to understand you as a unique person on your own personal walk with the Lord, and make the assumption that you know what you are doing and are indeed being led by the Lord to make your own unique relationship with Him.

My avatar used to be Popeye with his can of spinach, ready to take on and clean-up, or so I thought, any fight. I am trying to stay away from the spinach!

I need to join AA (Arguers Anonymous) !!

[todd520]

My point here is that saying I believe in Christ is not sufficient to gain entry to the group chrsitian.

Just as being a believer in democracy is not sufficient to proclaim I am a republican. Yes it is a starting point that will mean I have commonalities with a republican, but if I have strong pro-abortion or pro gay marriage beliefs I need to accept that I am actually more likely a democrat. (this is obviously an over simplification to express the principal.)

Two people who both believe in Christ share common belief on that point. It does not mean that they both ought to be called Christian.

Mikey, your analogy is so flawed it made me laugh.

Someone who believes in democracy and acts accordingly should be called democratic,

and then they could also belong to one of the many 'democratic' denominations,

such as the Dem party, Rep party, Green party, Libertarian party, etc.

However, just because one party uses the term Democratic in their name, doesn't mean they have exclusive rights to what the word represents.

Why didn't you clarify the true definition of Christian? You sort of left us hanging by only excluding selected people

[coolrok7]

(citizen28- post # 140)

Fromthe beginnings of the church up through the turn of the century and beyond,Mormons went to great lengths to distinguish themselves from Protestantism andother forms of mainstream Christianity (for obvious reasons), and it

[wcapurro]

I generally conclude that if someone says they are a Christian, then that's what they are. They could be lying I suppose, but then that's their problem, not mine. I consider myself a Christian even though I don't believe Christ walked on water, turned it into wine or rose from the dead. Nor do I accept that he died for my sins or is my one and only savior. Most of my Christian friends would say I don't qualify. But who are they to say?

[Anijen]

I generally conclude that if someone says they are a Christian, then that's what they are.

I agree I think it is funny (much entertainment) when someone else tells another what he/she believes.

John~ I am Christian.

Bob~ No you are not.

John~ I'm not? I think I should know.

Bob~ Your Mormon. Mormons aren't Christian.

John~ What? Were not? Hmm, I've been going to church all my life and was taught about Christ each Sunday. I am a follower of Christ.

Bob~ Listen, your not a Christian, I know because my pastor told me.

John~ Oh. I guess you and your pastor know my beliefs better than I do. Sigh...

[Hughes]

It is a teaching of the Mormon Church that Lucifer is identified as the

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

It is a teaching of the Mormon Church that Lucifer is identified as the

[coolrok7]

Boom ,winning.

It is in the bible that is the problem you need to deal with. Consult the book of Job.

BTW no one has denied that we teach that Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers.

While it might not be denied when the issue is raised, I don

[mfbukowski]

BTW no one has denied that we teach that Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers.

True- we teach that all of God's children are brothers and sisters, but of course Satan went astray. I see nothing wrong with the idea. Jesus is our brother, Satan is our brother, you and I are brothers.

In fact, I think the Bible implies it. It says God is the "father of spirits".

Anyone who has a spirit therefore, has God as the father of his spirit.

Do Lucifer and Jesus have spirits?

If they do, they must be brothers. We believe they do, therefore, we believe they must be brothers. Pretty straightforward stuff.

Where's that guy who used to post around here who thought that "Lucifer" and Christ were the same person? We do not believe that of course- but the Bible can be interpreted in many ways.

[mfbukowski]

Coolrok7

The bottom line here is that YES we have doctrines which are not included in the Bible, because we believe that revelation is not complete and is on-going.

We believe that none of the doctrines we do have are in conflict with the Bible- just that the bible is not complete, and that there are additional ordinances required, like the endowment, to reach the Celestial Kingdom.

You believe that the Bible is complete and the inerrant word of God (I am speaking for you at this point- that is my bleief about your beliefs which I freely acknowledge may be inaccurate)

I think the bottom line disagreement between us is that question- whether or not the Bible ends revelation from God or not, and whether or not Joseph was a prophet.

You believe he was a false "prophet", and I think he was a true prophet.

I further believe that there is no possible way to resolve this question except by appeal to testimony. I base my beliefs on my testimony that the LDS church is the truest church on the earth today, and you disagree.

I don't think there can be any resolution to that conflict.

[Sargon]

Rather than have LDS defend their position, in that they believe they are Christians. I would ask of LDS and anyone else who want's to participate in this rather difficult question.

Who isn't a Christian?

I'm jumping into this discussion really late.

My favorite definition for "Christian" is: "Anyone who has the man Jesus Christ at the very center of their theology."

This definition is deliberately broad, an "open tent" sort of definition. It has nothing to do with who is right or who is wrong (the way Evangelicals tend to define the word) and it has nothing to do with who is saved and who is not saved.

I would not include Muslims, since Jesus Christ is not at the very center of their theology. It would not include Buddhists, Hindu, and any other number of world religions.

It would include Catholics, Protestants (including Evangelicals), Mormons, Jehovah's Witness, and many others.

Sargon

[ChristKnight]

I'm jumping into this discussion really late.

My favorite definition for "Christian" is: "Anyone who has the man Jesus Christ at the very center of their theology."

This definition is deliberately broad, an "open tent" sort of definition. It has nothing to do with who is right or who is wrong (the way Evangelicals tend to define the word) and it has nothing to do with who is saved and who is not saved.

I would not include Muslims, since Jesus Christ is not at the very center of their theology. It would not include Buddhists, Hindu, and any other number of world religions.

It would include Catholics, Protestants (including Evangelicals), Mormons, Jehovah's Witness, and many others.

Sargon

I can already hear people saying-"but Jesus Christ isn't/wasn't just a man!"

But I agree with you.

[Pahoran]

Two more long canned sermons from Coolrok. I don't know how you do it.

While it might not be denied when the issue is raised, I don

[Sargon]

I can already hear people saying-"but Jesus Christ isn't/wasn't just a man!"

But I agree with you.

Yes, I thought of that. But I've never heard of anyone disagreeing that Jesus was a man, so I thought I was on safe grounds there. Perhaps I should use the word "person" instead.

James

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

While it might not be denied when the issue is raised, I don

[coolrok7]

Says who? You? Boom! Winning! Again!

We talked about this all of the time in teh missionary discussion durring the lesson on the premortal exsistance and the war in hevean. So, the idea that we "hide it" or that "we don't teach it to new members" is false.

What the issue here is how Huckabee dubiously brought this up for political advatange for it's shock value to his base of conservitve evangelicals. He knew it would up him up over Romney.

I have a feeling Coolrok, that you rarely let the missionaries teach their lessons and instead probebly bring up "issues" for them to answer.

Mola, your feelings can get you into trouble if you're not careful. I'm only interested in the truth here, not the spreading of lies. Some Mormons are guilty of the same in my experience.

You guys/gals here at times assume a lot of things I haven't said or wasn't really saying what you thought I meant by what I said. I'm not saying that the war in heaven (pre-existence which I don't believe is Biblical for us) and all that goes with that is not touched upon in a teaching context. I didn't say what you said (that we "hide it" or that "we don't teach it to new members" is false.).

What I'm saying is that in all the discussions I had with missionaries or any other member of the Church, not once did they mention that Lucifer was the spirit brother of Jesus, using this terminology as it is in the book I referenced earlier (they did talk about all of us, angels and men are considered as being sons of God in the same way; which I don't believe, also for biblicl reasons). There were also many times I sat there and listened as well as ask questions pertinent to the discussions at hand. You weren't there, I was. I'm not going to lie to you as God is listening in to all our conversations, remember?

[TAO]

Mola, your feelings can get you into trouble if you're not careful. I'm only interested in the truth here, not the spreading of lies. Some Mormons are guilty of the same in my experience.

You guys/gals here at times assume a lot of things I haven't said or wasn't really saying what you thought I meant by what I said. I'm not saying that the war in heaven (pre-existence which I don't believe is Biblical for us) and all that goes with that is not touched upon in a teaching context. I didn't say what you said (that we "hide it" or that "we don't teach it to new members" is false.).

What I'm saying is that in all the discussions I had with missionaries or any other member of the Church, not once did they mention that Lucifer was the spirit brother of Jesus, using this terminology as it is in the book I referenced earlier (they did talk about all of us, angels and men are considered as being sons of God in the same way; which I don't believe, also for biblicl reasons). There were also many times I sat there and listened as well as ask questions pertinent to the discussions at hand. You weren't there, I was. I'm not going to lie to you as God is listening in to all our conversations, remember?

Yes, missionaries wouldn't be expected to mention it - there job is to talk about the atonement and plan of salvation and such.

But the Book of Moses/Abraham talks about it, if one looks into it.

[Calm]

While it might not be denied when the issue is raised, I don

[todd520]

What I'm saying is that in all the discussions I had with missionaries or any other member of the Church, not once did they mention that Lucifer was the spirit brother of Jesus, using this terminology as it is in the book I referenced earlier (they did talk about all of us, angels and men are considered as being sons of God in the same way; which I don't believe, also for biblicl reasons). There were also many times I sat there and listened as well as ask questions pertinent to the discussions at hand. You weren't there, I was. I'm not going to lie to you as God is listening in to all our conversations, remember?

I'm very surprised at your experiences. I'm a recent convert and:

- I was told about spirit brothers by the mishies

- I was given a copy of Gospel Principles to take home and read.

Every investigator should read through Gospel Principles and ask questions. All my questions were answered.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mola, your feelings can get you into trouble if you're not careful. I'm only interested in the truth here, not the spreading of lies. Some Mormons are guilty of the same in my experience.

You guys/gals here at times assume a lot of things I haven't said or wasn't really saying what you thought I meant by what I said. I'm not saying that the war in heaven (pre-existence which I don't believe is Biblical for us) and all that goes with that is not touched upon in a teaching context. I didn't say what you said (that we "hide it" or that "we don't teach it to new members" is false.).

What I'm saying is that in all the discussions I had with missionaries or any other member of the Church, not once did they mention that Lucifer was the spirit brother of Jesus, using this terminology as it is in the book I referenced earlier (they did talk about all of us, angels and men are considered as being sons of God in the same way; which I don't believe, also for biblicl reasons). There were also many times I sat there and listened as well as ask questions pertinent to the discussions at hand. You weren't there, I was. I'm not going to lie to you as God is listening in to all our conversations, remember?

Look, I only have my observations with you here on this board to go off of. You generally are respectful but you have a habit to preach and not really listen to what we are saying. I suspect you treat the missionaries in a similar fashion. If I am wrong I am wrong. So be it. It really is no skin off my nose.

BTW "Jesus and Jucifer being spirit brothers" is more of a catch phrase. Generally you will hear members tell you that "we are all spirit brothers of Heveanly Father and Jesus is our elder brother. That would also include Satan. Beleive it or not this is widley taught.

[Anakin7]

I'm very surprised at your experiences. I'm a recent convert and:

- I was told about spirit brothers by the mishies

- I was given a copy of Gospel Principles to take home and read.

Every investigator should read through Gospel Principles and ask questions. All my questions were answered.

THANK YOU, PRAISE JESUS !!!.

IN HIS DEBT/GRACE

ANAKIN7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[Lareliw]

What is gospel principles? I have not heard of that, and I have been through the missionary lessons.

THANK YOU, PRAISE JESUS !!!.

IN HIS DEBT/GRACE

ANAKIN7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[Anakin7]

Coolrok is a Lutheran, and while the Lutheran Church from my understanding believes Mormonism to be "Hetrodox" [Christian but with problems ] he comes here to our front door [And other venues] to preach to us why we are all on the path to hell. He ignores his own front and back door with individuals that proclaim that the Suppossed Christian form/model known as Lutheranism is evil, satanic, to be avoided at all costs. Reminded of Motes/Beams, Casting Stones.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT