Are Mormons Really Christian?

[SilverKnight]

Hi Coolrok,

Bold mine. Let me clear this up a bit on correct theology as it pertains to ones Christianity.

Say you put a devout Catholic, LDS, JW, Protestant Armenian, Oneness Pentecostal and Protestant Calvinist in a room. Each individual would certainly believe they were a Christian, however there would likely be some diverse opinions in the room as each individual evaluated the beliefs of the other 5 people.

If we use a very simple definition of Christian, like "a follower of Christ". I think all individuals would feel they met that standard would likely agree that the other members also at least believed they met that same standard.

It is not that I think correct theology is unimportant. In fact, I think as Christians we should strive to have the most correct theology possible. However, there is a great deal of division on what "correct theology" actually is.

Personally, I think we do better to come to the table with people who claim Christ and also claim different theology with a willingness to discuss these differences.

I think to come to the table claiming Christ for ourselves and also seeking to strip similar claims proffered by others is perceived as somewhat of a kneecap maneuver to unman an adversarial position. I see it as counterproductive to open dialogue.

I don't see why someone who considers themselves a follower of Christ but doesn't believe in the doctrine of the Trinity would even want to discuss the concept of the Trinity if I had already polarized the conversation with a declaration they can't be Christian.

I think trying to drag someone out of an erroneous position is a difficult if not impossible task. In my opinion, presenting views in an environment that is conducive to listening rather than adversity gives the truth an opportunity to speak for itself.

In regards to your specific question. Though I don't think many LDS feel necessarily motivated to "join us" in some sort of denominational sense any more than "us" doesn't seem to want to "join them" either. I do think LDS have made strides with joint efforts with non-LDS Christians. I think they would make more efforts toward this "interfaith" sort of direction if it wasn't for the fact that many would not welcome them nor will likely embrace that notion in the near future.

Regards,

Mudcat

Mudcat,

Once again thou almost convinceth me to become a Christian.

Well said.

[SkepticTheist]

I think that whenever we allow other people to define us according to their subjective standards, we give them power over us. They don't know our hearts. Besides, they have created a club that they call "Christian". Christianity is a jewish religion at the core anyway. Why is it that we are not all clamoring to be called Jewish? Because Christians don't care to be identified as a theologically Jewish system. It doesn't make a difference to them. I like how Richard Dawkins styled us, as the Fourth Abrahamic religion. Do I really want to be identified in the same category as apostasies anyway? So does it matter personally to me what they choose to call me, if they don't grant me the name Christian to be called by? Isn't it better just to go on with my life and forget it? I'm tired of caring whether I should be counted in people's "clubs" anymore anyway. It hurts when people don't want to be inclusive. But we should get used to it and move on.

Ed Goble

Don't feel overly inclined to answer the OP. It was a pathetic attempt at a shock tactic to draw readership.

My own thoughts were spurred by a discussion somewhere else on the definition of the term "atheist". IMO there is a lot of shift in ground on that term over the years... but I imagine the same could be said for other terms... back in the day, a pirates "booty" had a different connotation and being "gay" was a good thing in everyone's perception.

I think if we take the most basic definition for Christian.

The first definition that popped up on Google

Most of us might agree on the unbolded part. However many would take issue on exactly what the bolded part meant.

To tell you the truth, I dunno who actually comes up with "definitions". I don't know what common criteria are required to formulate them.

Most people don't argue about what is or isn't "red", "7" or "heartburn". However, there is a bit of a stir over "Christian".

Rather than have LDS defend their position, in that they believe they are Christians. I would ask of LDS and anyone else who want's to participate in this rather difficult question.

Who isn't a Christian?

[bluebell]

I think that whenever we allow other people to define us according to their subjective standards, we give them power over us. They don't know our hearts. Besides, they have created a club that they call "Christian". Christianity is a jewish religion at the core anyway. Why is it that we are not all clamoring to be called Jewish? Because Christians don't care to be identified as a theologically Jewish system. It doesn't make a difference to them. I like how Richard Dawkins styled us, as the Fourth Abrahamic religion. Do I really want to be identified in the same category as apostasies anyway? So does it matter personally to me what they choose to call me, if they don't grant me the name Christian to be called by? Isn't it better just to go on with my life and forget it? I'm tired of caring whether I should be counted in people's "clubs" anymore anyway. It hurts when people don't want to be inclusive. But we should get used to it and move on.

Ed Goble

I understand your point, but for me, the issue is whether or not someone unfamiliar with my faith or religion, will be able to understand that mormons believe in Christ, believe the Atonement, and believe in the need for a grace and a Savior by how other people label the religion.

In other words, will the labels that other people use describe us accurately so that those who don't know, will gain a basic correct idea of the scope of the religion.

I don't care whether someone thinks my religion is Christian, so much as I care that the world knows we are a religion who worships Christ, believes Him to be the Son of God, and believes in the importance of having faith in Him in regards to salvation.

I think it is important for a proselytizing(sp?) church to care how the world understand their basic beliefs because misunderstandings can keep people from wanting to know more about the religion.

[SkepticTheist]

I agree that it is important for missionary work to present things as they are, which is that we are Christian. I'm just saying, we should not worry so much when other people won't grant to us that fact. We should use it where it is necessary to use it, which is in missionary work, and forget the fact that the infantile "Christian club" has decided like little children that another child who is "ugly" to them in some way can't come and play in the same sandbox with their toy tonka trucks.

Ed Goble

I understand your point, but for me, the issue is whether or not someone unfamiliar with my faith or religion, will be able to understand that mormons believe in Christ, believe the Atonement, and believe in the need for a grace and a Savior by how other people label the religion.

In other words, will the labels that other people use describe us accurately so that those who don't know, will gain a basic correct idea of the scope of the religion.

I don't care whether someone thinks my religion is Christian, so much as I care that the world knows we are a religion who worships Christ, believes Him to be the Son of God, and believes in the importance of having faith in Him in regards to salvation.

I think it is important for a proselytizing(sp?) church to care how the world understand their basic beliefs because misunderstandings can keep people from wanting to know more about the religion.

[consiglieri]

Who isn't a Christian?

Hi, Mudcat!

I think you will find Mormons to be fairly generous in allowing members of other faiths into the Christian clubhouse.

Which is interesting given how frequently some members of other Christian faiths are so anxious to exclude Mormons.

In this context, I think it is interesting that usually the argument is over what Mormons believe--i.e., they can't believe that and be Christian.

And usually, these deal breakers break down into three categories: (1) Because we don't believe in God the right way; (2) Because we don't believe in salvation the right way; and, (3) Because we don't believe the Bible to be the complete and inerrant Word of God. At least, this has been my experience as to the most common reasons some Christians deny Mormons the soubriquet of "Christian."

I always think it interesting that the argument is invariably about belief.

It was not that long ago that the definition of Christian was given or withheld primarily on the basis of conduct, as in, "That's not a very Christian thing to do." Belief seemed to have little to do with it.

Whereas I am in favor of letting people be called whatever they want (with the exception of evil anti-Mormons), I think it more helpful if we focused on behavior rather than belief.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

In a few cases it seems there are some that are anti-Mormon and they are Mormon. (sort of kidding there)

Ahem . . .

[LDS Guy 1986]

Who isn't a Christian?

Well according to the definition that you provided it is someone who doesn't believe that Jesus is the Christ!

[SkepticTheist]

But you forget that those in the infantile Christian Club just try to tell us that ours is "another Jesus" as another reason we can't play in the same sandbox. I should know. My so called good "friend" who was a born again Christian, in that friendship for 20 years, broke it off and blackballed me, telling me that he can't be friends because I believe in another Jesus. If we live into the millenium and he comes to notice that those darn Mormons get raptured too, and caught up into the cloud to meet the real Jesus, I'll bet that will be quite a shock to him. Maybe at that point he will apologize to me, but I will have a tough time forgiving him entirely for what he did to me, as I am having a hard time right now coming up with the inner willpower to begin to start forgiving him for it.

It is nothing but childish bigotry and hate.

Ed Goble

Well according to the definition that you provided it is someone who doesn't believe that Jesus is the Christ!

[LDS Guy 1986]

But you forget that those in the infantile Christian Club just try to tell us that ours is "another Jesus" as another reason we can't play in the same sandbox. I should know. My so called good "friend" who was a born again Christian, in that friendship for 20 years, broke it off and blackballed me, telling me that he can't be friends because I believe in another Jesus. If we live into the millenium and he comes to notice that those darn Mormons get raptured too, and caught up into the cloud to meet the real Jesus, I'll bet that will be quite a shock to him. Maybe at that point he will apologize to me, but I will have a tough time forgiving him entirely for what he did to me, as I am having a hard time right now coming up with the inner willpower to begin to start forgiving him for it.

It is nothing but childish bigotry and hate.

Ed Goble

I don't forget them, you cannot accept that Jesus is the Christ if you show hatred towards your fellow man, like the "other Jesus" people do.

They simply cannot be a true Christian since they violate the fundamental teachings of Jesus Christ.

A good analogy is the brutal dictator who claims to love freedom and peace, but commits genocide against his own people for not doing what he said.

Saying you believe Jesus is the Christ isn't enough you have to show you believe that Jesus is the Christ. Words without actions is as dead as faith without works, IMO.

Hope this clarifies!

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Ahem . . .

(As Consig raises his hand)

Consig you are a riot, man.

[coolrok7]

John the apostle was banished to the Island of Patmos because of his testimony concerning Jesus. After John, no living apostles remained of the original group selected by Jesus (The others had already been martyred as was prophesied by Jesus).

It was the vision given him, near the end of the first century, in which he was told to

[Vance]

John the apostle was banished to the Island of Patmos because of his testimony concerning Jesus.

<SNIP>

Another fine sermon from coolrok7.

[Calm]

they always end up leaving without ever really answering my questions I had after studying with them, taking their lessons etc..

I'm shocked!

[SkepticTheist]

Creedal, Protestant Christians define orthodox as that which is older and creedal. They define heresy as that which is newer, which contradicts their creeds. Just words defined by an ideology that wants to say that they don't agree with us, so they label us. Notwithstanding that they themselves are heresies to the Orthodoxy of Catholicism.

Ed Goble

John the apostle was banished to the Island of Patmos because of his testimony concerning Jesus. After John, no living apostles remained of the original group selected by Jesus (The others had already been martyred as was prophesied by Jesus).

It was the vision given him, near the end of the first century, in which he was told to

[coolrok7]

Mud, this is your thread. Do you mind if I answer the charge of Skeptic Theist?

[Mudcat]

Fire at will. I thought he was talking to you anyways.

It wasn't neccesary but thanks for asking.

[Mudcat]

Duplicate... oops... I hate posting from a phone.

[BCSpace]

Rather than have LDS defend their position, in that they believe they are Christians. I would ask of LDS and anyone else who want's to participate in this rather difficult question.

Who isn't a Christian?

In a broad sense, anyone who doesn't accept the teachings of Jesus and his autorized servants. Of course, ultimately this means anyone who is not LDS is not a Christian and this makes sense because by definition LDS are the only members of the body of Christ.

[SkepticTheist]

Wrong. There are many in "preparation for the word" in every group of people and nation on this earth. It only matters that people end up to be Mormon eventually in God's time in the end, whenever that is, when God starts to work on them to bring them into his fold. It doesn't matter that some are not yet. And those Mormons who will end up out of Mormonism in the end will not be counted. There are a great many that have other work to do outside of this religion who God has intentionally veiled their minds so they don't accept the gospel prematurely before their time, so they can fulfill the work he has called them to do. And yes, that means that they are "called" and "ordained" to do those works outside of the priesthood. Most likely every other minister who serves people in any other religion falls into that category.

In a broad sense, anyone who doesn't accept the teachings of Jesus and his autorized servants. Of course, ultimately this means anyone who is not LDS is not a Christian and this makes sense because by definition LDS are the only members of the body of Christ.

[Bikeemikey]

The question is not "Are Mormons Christians"? There is no answer for this as there is no clear central authority who controls the defining nature of the term.

The real question is, in my opinion, "Why do Mormon's want to be Christian"?

Anyone able to answer this one?

[Mudcat]

Sounds good to me. Knew I would have more to say.

What cracks me up is how divided alleged "Christianity" is- when it is supposed to be one faith one baptism- unity. Remember that? How come some get to be in the "club" and others don't?

Some think Catholics are not "Christian". How can you be a Christian and condemn others for their beliefs when you all are so fragmented to begin with?

You cannot even define yourselves clearly! (Not @ you, Mud- that is addressed to those of the "Christian" community who condemn other believers in Christ)

Hey Bukowski,

I am thinking your being a bit tounge and cheek.. but I dunno.

But emphasis mine, I did want to address this particular part of your post. There are a myriad of reasons why one particular group of Christians condemn others but the primary reason seems that whatever group they condemn is condemned by the doctrines of their particular sect.

But I don't think it's really fair to say something like "you all are so fragmented to begin with". Certainly there are differences from one group to the next and there is even a bit of disjointedness within singular groups as well.

However, the disjointedness that occurs within sects is common to all groups, including LDS. This forum gives fair evidence of that IMO. No two people are exactly alike and it's likely that no two believers are completely alike in their beliefs even if they are in the same faith group.

Certainly it seems Christians are not institutionally unified, but given the third person appeal that seems to be augmented in your post, I feel that you must think there is something that separates LDS from the rest of "alleged Christianity".

IMO LDS are just as much a part of this quagmire of odd and end beliefs and doctrines as the next fellow who claims Christ.

Bukowski, I am not directing this at you specifically, but I feel you have given me a platform here, so I will vent for just a bit.

A brief analogy on what I think the problem with all of it is.

Most of us come to the table with our cups full of something. We spend quite a bit of time talking about what our own particular cup is full of. But as I see it, there is no way to fill a cup that is full.

All Christians would agree that Christ is in their cup, but they don't agree on the rest of the ingredients... be it free will, determinism, LDS prophets, definitions of Grace, security of the believer, what happens in the afterlife, purgatory, spirit prison, and so on and so on.

I am of the opinion, that we would do better to dash out the entire contents of all our cups, save for Christ because I think he is sufficient to fill them.

I suppose I get frustrated. I see the message that Christ has sent to us, as a such simple one and yet it gets so convoluted. We've tacked on all these rules and regulations that accompany this message. I don't see that as a good thing. IMO what we as Christians argue over are all these rules and regulations.

Somehow we attach them all to what Christ has done for us. We quarantine ourselves and restrict on another rather than love one another including LDS.

It doesn't seem anyone wants to find the truth these days, because we all seem to think we have it.

Maybe I am mixed up about all this. Maybe I am wrong for suggesting that beneath all our rules and regulations that somehow this love for Christ and our attempts to adhere to his teachings are enough to actually make us all brothers and sisters regardless of our differences, but it's what I believe.

I get angry about it. Seems we hang on to all this baggage like Linus' blanket.

It is so hard for a Christian to see eye to eye with their brother or sister when one or both of them is trying to look down on the other from their percieved step above the other.

I suppose I could keep ranting but have run out of steam for the moment.

Thanks for the vent.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[Libs]

Wrong. There are many in "preparation for the word" in every group of people and nation on this earth. It only matters that people end up to be Mormon eventually in God's time in the end, whenever that is, when God starts to work on them to bring them into his fold. It doesn't matter that some are not yet. And those Mormons who will end up out of Mormonism in the end will not be counted. There are a great many that have other work to do outside of this religion who God has intentionally veiled their minds so they don't accept the gospel prematurely before their time, so they can fulfill the work he has called them to do. And yes, that means that they are "called" and "ordained" to do those works outside of the priesthood. Most likely every other minister who serves people in any other religion falls into that category.

That is exactly what my favorite Gospel Doctrine teacher taught us. He said the Body of Christ was more than the LDS Church, and that some who were currently active in the church would, ultimately, not be included, because they will fall away. (I guess I was one of those he was talking about, although, I didn't know it at the time).. Anyway, the Body of Christ is much larger than the LDS Church, as you said. I believe the Body of Christ includes everyone who sincerely believes and follows Christ, to the best of their ability.

[Libs]

I am of the opinion, that we would do better to dash out the entire contents of all our cups, save for Christ because I think he is sufficient to fill them.

Amen to that.

But, people will disagree on exactly what that means.

I know what it means to me. It would mean to simply follow Christ's example and try to be as much like him, as humanly possible. It would mean putting all of my faith (trust) in him, as my teacher & Savior.

[Mudcat]

Amen to that.

But, people will disagree on exactly what that means.

I know what it means to me. It would mean to simply follow Christ's example and try to be as much like him, as humanly possible. It would mean putting all of my faith (trust) in him, as my teacher & Savior.

Thanks for that Libs.

You know I had logged on this a.m. to edit a bit of my frustration from that last post. Sometimes I get a bit wound up. But what the heck, why not let it all it all hang out once in a while.

Bold mine. What you have described in your statement about what it means to you was really well said. I think at the core of the heart of all believers a similar sentiment must surely rest. I know it does with me.

In one respect your right. It is likely people will disagree on exactly what that means. But I think it would be still be a great place to start from.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[SkepticTheist]

The question is not "Are Mormons Christians"? There is no answer for this as there is no clear central authority who controls the defining nature of the term.

The real question is, in my opinion, "Why do Mormon's want to be Christian"?

Anyone able to answer this one?

A better question is, Why does those who style themselves "orthodox" want to redefine Mormons as Non-Christian, and who do they think they are? They certainly are not God themselves.