Are Mormons Really Christian?

[Bikeemikey]

A better question is, Why does those who style themselves "orthodox" want to redefine Mormons as Non-Christian, and who do they think they are? They certainly are not God themselves.

I am an active Mormon. I happen to understand exactly why "Orthodoxy" wants to exclude Mormonism from the category of Christian. It is primarily to do with the huge number of Non-Christian beliefs that we believe. I also understand that it is not their right to include/exclude any one group from the larger umbrella term "Christian".

As a Mormon however, I couldn't careless if some people don't think I am Christian. In fact if someone was to assume I was Christian I think they would then infer on my belief structure a large number of concepts and principles to which I do not subscribe.

Moreover, this debate, in my estimation is not a Mormon vs. Orthodoxy debate. Rather it is a Western/American Mormon vs. Western/American Orthodoxy debate. After serving my mission in Taiwan and living in Asia for a number of years I realized that LDS members outside of the Western World/USA seem not to care to much as to whether or not people consider them Christian.

So why do Mormons of Western Heritage have a compulsive fervor to prove to the world they are Christian?

I still think this is really the important question, at least it is one that may gave an answer.

[Libs]

Thanks for that Libs.

You know I had logged on this a.m. to edit a bit of my frustration from that last post. Sometimes I get a bit wound up. But what the heck, why not let it all it all hang out once in a while.

Bold mine. What you have described in your statement about what it means to you was really well said. I think at the core of the heart of all believers a similar sentiment must surely rest. I know it does with me.

In one respect your right. It is likely people will disagree on exactly what that means. But I think it would be still be a great place to start from.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

I'm glad you didn't edit your post. I thought it was very insightful. It takes some courage to let it all hang out there, sometimes. I have some fairly unorthodox beliefs that I generally keep pretty close to the vest.

I struggled for awhile over this whole question of who, exactly, is Christian and who is not. I'm not sure, now, that it is even a proper question to ask. I am coming to believe that the family of Christ is quite large...and truthfully, not even the only family of God. I have tried, but I cannot believe that God ignores, curses or turns his back on any of his human family. I do believe he draws us to him in a variety of ways.

But, for Christians, I agree with you that Christ is a very good place to start (and end ). Our cup would be overflowing with love and truth, if we just kept our eyes on him.

God bless, Mudcat. I've always enjoyed your posts.

[mfbukowski]

So why do Mormons of Western Heritage have a compulsive fervor to prove to the world they are Christian?

Agreed.

But here in the West, all the "good guys" are Christian. That gives you the choice of being an Islamic terrorist or a Jewish Christ killer.

Pretty disgusting how we categorize people huh? I think the answer really is Western homogeneity in religion, and the consequent fear of the unknown.

If you are not "Christian" you must be a member of one of those "weird religions" that exist in all those weird Eastern countries.

Durty furriners. Them guys ain't even white folks.

[Libs]

lol...funny, mfbukowski.

And, sadly, probably more truth to it than most would like to admit.

[emeliza]

But, for Christians, I agree with you that Christ is a very good place to start (and end ). Our cup would be overflowing with love and truth, if we just kept our eyes on him.

Too true. There is definitely a reason we use CTR and WWJD as little sayings. It helps us to remember to return to Christ as we too often get our eyes cast in different directions.

[Bikeemikey]

Too true. There is definitely a reason we use CTR and WWJD as little sayings. It helps us to remember to return to Christ as we too often get our eyes cast in different directions.

I am not sure that believing in Christ ought to make you immediately Christian any more than believing in Democracy immediately makes you a republican.

One is a state of belief, the other is a statement of affiliation to a subset within that belief.

[Calm]

It is primarily to do with the huge number of Non-Christian beliefs that we believe.

Such as....?

[Libs]

I am not sure that believing in Christ ought to make you immediately Christian any more than believing in Democracy immediately makes you a republican.

One is a state of belief, the other is a statement of affiliation to a subset within that belief.

Not sure I understand what you're saying, here. A 'state of belief' is a starting point. Generally speaking, faith and action should arise out of that belief, if it is true belief.

[Bikeemikey]

My point here is that saying I believe in Christ is not sufficient to gain entry to the group chrsitian.

Just as being a believer in democracy is not sufficient to proclaim I am a republican. Yes it is a starting point that will mean I have commonalities with a republican, but if I have strong pro-abortion or pro gay marriage beliefs I need to accept that I am actually more likely a democrat. (this is obviously an over simplification to express the principal.)

Two people who both believe in Christ share common belief on that point. It does not mean that they both ought to be called Christian.

[Bikeemikey]

Any LDS member who is not aware of the mormon doctrinal beliefs that place us outside Christian Orthodoxy (if there even is such a thing) ought to reassess whether they should really be arguing about whether lds are chrisitian.

Even a casual reading Of the D&C provides a number of beliefs not in keeping with the Christian mainstreAm.

If Joseph smith didn't provide us with doctrine and principles that chrsitianity already possessed then what was the point of the restoration. By my estimation the concept of the restored gospel itself requires that we have beliefs not found elsewhere, things that had been lost over time. JS didn't just restore the phood, he also restored gospel truths.

We do have beliefs that are fundamentally divergent from mainstream chrsitianity, any LDS who doesn't realize this ought to spend less time trying to be Christian and a little more time figuring out what it means to be Mormon.

[Koloborator]

The questions isn't very relevant, at least to Christians. Jesus said, "I know my sheep, and mine know me." He didn't ask any third parties for their opinions.

[Bikeemikey]

I totally agree. The only person who really needs to consider us a "Christian" is Christ.

However, does that mean that all the "christians" who are trying to argue mormons are not christian are themselves not actually Christian? Or what about Mormons trying to prove we are? Does getting involved in the debate show we have lost sight of what it means to be Christian?

I think the truth is that doctrinally and theologically is does not matter what definition we use as the final and only judgement that matter is christs.

However, psychologically it does matter a great deal. To a lot of people. The whole debate in my mind should not even deal with the theological variances between Mormons and others. It should really be about what the psychological pressures people are feeling to make them want to demand inclusion or force exclusion for or on different groups.

As christianity is currently represented I am not sure I am overly eager to have the voice of the restored gospel be relegated to the position of "another Christian religion".

So to rephrase the question, "why are some lds so interested in having the world consider them Christian"?

Obviously christ already does, is that not enough?

Sorry my last few posts have been my first from my iPhone. As such spelling and grammar have been a little lax. I hope this hasn't made my thoughts hard to understand.

[Calm]

Any LDS member who is not aware of the mormon doctrinal beliefs that place us outside Christian Orthodoxy (if there even is such a thing) ought to reassess whether they should really be arguing about whether lds are chrisitian.....

We do have beliefs that are fundamentally divergent from mainstream chrsitianity, any LDS who doesn't realize this ought to spend less time trying to be Christian and a little more time figuring out what it means to be Mormon.

You stated "nonChristian" beliefs, not "nonmainstream Christian" beliefs. I am well aware of nonorthodox beliefs that LDS hold, but it is improper to label them as "nonChristian" (which is what I issued a CFR for) for a variety of reasons, first off because we are Christian and they are our beliefs so they are Christian beliefs. Also many have been held by other Christian sects who were recognized as Christian if at times heretical.

If you meant in your comment "It is primarily to do with the huge number of Non-Orthodox Christian beliefs that we believe" than I would have no significant quibble with that comment.

[Koloborator]

So to rephrase the question, "why are some lds so interested in having the world consider them Christian"?

[Bikeemikey]

You stated "nonChristian" beliefs, not "nonmainstream Christian" beliefs. I am well aware of nonorthodox beliefs that LDS hold, but it is improper to label them as "nonChristian" (which is what I issued a CFR for) for a variety of reasons, first off because we are Christian and they are our beliefs so they are Christian beliefs. Also many have been held by other Christian sects who were recognized as Christian if at times heretical.

If you meant in your comment "It is primarily to do with the huge number of Non-Orthodox Christian beliefs that we believe" than I would have no significant quibble with that comment.

That is a fair comment.

Lets agree that Mormonism, if it were to be considered Christian would most certainly not be main stream. We have a large number of non-mainstream, non-orthodox views.

However, arguing that our beliefs are Christian (though admitting they are not "main stream") because we are Christian is boot strapping. LDS beliefs should be considered Christian because we are question misses the point.

I think to truly determine Christianity on grounds of theology and doctrine (also something I don't think we should be worrying about) we need to look at the Christian Frame work prior to the LDS restoration and then compare the Mormon theological frame work with that.

We can not simply say our beliefs are Christian because we are Christian and have that work with anyone but LDS.

So when I say we have many non-Christian beliefs I mean we have many beliefs that the Christian world prior to Mormonism does not share, and in fact are openly hostile to.

In my mind:

Are we Christian? In the sense we believe in Christ, yes.

But for me again the real question is why do LDS want to be considered part of the greater Christian religion?

[LDS Guy 1986]

why do LDS want to be considered part of the greater Christian religion?

Seeing that we have almost 150 years of false statements to battle on a daily basis, overcoming two of the biggest ones (we are polygamists, and we are not Christian) goes a long way into being able to spread the message of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.

It's not about doctrine, being Christian is never about doctrine its about following the teachings, commandments, and example of the life the the Lord Jesus of Nazareth our Christ. We are Christian, we do not have the same doctrine as any other Christian Church.

But what two Christian Churches ever have identical doctrine? Every Church differs on doctrine, if they didn't they wouldn't be many Churches but one Church, doctrine has no impact on whether some is or isn't a Christian. Believing that Jesus of Nazareth is the Son of God and the anointed one of our Father in Heaven is the only requirement.

[Bikeemikey]

Seeing that we have almost 150 years of false statements to battle on a daily basis, overcoming two of the biggest ones (we are polygamists, and we are not Christian) goes a long way into being able to spread the message of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.

There is nothing false about the statement that our church is polygamist. Our church practiced polygamy. We discontinued the practice of polygamy due to overwhelming political pressure. Our church has no moral aversion to the practice of polygamy. We simply recognize that marriage is defined by the government and polygamy doesn't fit. Our church is polygamous, as is our doctrine. We simply do not practice it at present.

As for the Christian statement. You have made the claim that saying Mormons are not Christian is false. But I am still unsure as to why. I also 100% believe that this is not a question that there will actually be ever be answered due to the fact that no one group currently own or control the phrase. That said the "groups" that currently exert the most control over the use of the term Christian don't seem to want to include the LDS. When the majority of a certain group don't want to include you it might be time to take the hint. This "mormons are not Christian" majority is waning, as far as I can tell, but again I am not sure this is a good thing. Why do we want to fight our way to be defined by a term that undermines the historical importance of the restoration and projects a doctrinal and theological structure that we clearly do not believe.

It's not about doctrine, being Christian is never about doctrine its about following the teachings, commandments, and example of the life the the Lord Jesus of Nazareth our Christ. We are Christian, we do not have the same doctrine as any other Christian Church.

But what two Christian Churches ever have identical doctrine? Every Church differs on doctrine, if they didn't they wouldn't be many Churches but one Church, doctrine has no impact on whether some is or isn't a Christian. Believing that Jesus of Nazareth is the Son of God and the anointed one of our Father in Heaven is the only requirement.

You are correct that the vast majority of Christian churches have areas of doctrinal variance. However, even these churches acknowledge each other as Christian despite these differences. They do not do this for the LDS church.

I also agree that it is not doctrinal. The reasons that people either want the LDS church to be termed Christian, or the opposite, are about the psychological desire to either be included or to exclude.

So again. Why do (we) LDS want to be included in the broader category of Christian.

Why not just believe in Christ and be happy with that?

Are we really going to spend all this time and energy getting in the Christian club, once we are in we are going to have to spend the next 100 years explaining why we are different and how saying we are Christian only really works in as much as we believe in Jesus. Everyone knows we believe in Jesus. It is in the name of the Church.

I think that people seem to know that we believe in Jesus but also know we are not really considered Christian is a great benefit to our Church and to the missionaries.

[Hughes]

Seeing that we have almost 150 years of false statements to battle on a daily basis, overcoming two of the biggest ones (we are polygamists, and we are not Christian) goes a long way into being able to spread the message of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.

It's not about doctrine, being Christian is never about doctrine its about following the teachings, commandments, and example of the life the the Lord Jesus of Nazareth our Christ. We are Christian, we do not have the same doctrine as any other Christian Church.

But what two Christian Churches ever have identical doctrine? Every Church differs on doctrine, if they didn't they wouldn't be many Churches but one Church, doctrine has no impact on whether some is or isn't a Christian. Believing that Jesus of Nazareth is the Son of God and the anointed one of our Father in Heaven is the only requirement.

You say it's not about doctrine, but about following the eachings, commandments, and example of the life the the Lord Jesus of Nazareth our Christ.

Yet what is doctrine if it's not the teachings, commandments and example of christ?

In essence, the reason the LDS aren't considered Christian is because of their teachings. Main/core teachings are at variance with the rest of christian churches.

Christ isn't the brother of Lucifer for example. God wasn't once a man, another example. The vary basis of Mormonism, that the gospel had to be restored. These are examples of huge doctrinal differences. In essence, Mormon's are following a different Christ.

[Jeff K.]

Since when is Christianity decided by a majority vote? It isn't. Christ did not take a poll.

Latter Day Saints are in something of a conundrum. We want to be liked for our works and what we do. More importantly we want to be respected and acknowledged. Such is human nature, to avoid contention and seek harmony. Unfortunately in the world there are many unchristlike elements intertwined with Christianity (as there have been since the days of Judas Iscariot) and so we find ourselves struggling to define it so that the Unchristlike elements are forced to accept us into Christianity.

I sometimes think we worry too much about what the unchristlike elements think, and not enough of what Christ thinks.

I follow Christ, I am a Christian, I follow his commandments, and His example. I also hold the priesthood and am blessed with the knowledge that prophets lead this church. Prophets who expect me to communicate directly with God, even as they do so that I do not abrogate my responsibility to God and allow others to define the doctrine. These things make me a Christian, and they make me a Saint, and a Mormon. Some can hate me because we don't see things exactly equally or in the precise same way, but we Mormons try to to good, and we try mightily to follow Christ. Others can accept me as someone who is trying their best like so many fellow Mormons, to follow Christ. And some will hate us regardless of what we try to do, rather they judge us by what they think we believe.

Just remember this, when you disdain, or hate, or falsely accuse, you reject God and accept Satan. Try to remember that when you call yourself Christian.

[mfbukowski]

In essence, Mormon's are following a different Christ.

Yes

It's too bad what Neoplatonism did to the gospel isn't it? The Trinity is nothing but Greek philosophy- Forms and Essences and Substance!

[Lareliw]

To me, being "Christian" means to be "Christlike" and to accept Jesus as our Savior and Lord, to put our faith in His death on the cross cleansing the sins of the world so we are as white as snow through repentance.

Seeing that we have almost 150 years of false statements to battle on a daily basis, overcoming two of the biggest ones (we are polygamists, and we are not Christian) goes a long way into being able to spread the message of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.

It's not about doctrine, being Christian is never about doctrine its about following the teachings, commandments, and example of the life the the Lord Jesus of Nazareth our Christ. We are Christian, we do not have the same doctrine as any other Christian Church.

But what two Christian Churches ever have identical doctrine? Every Church differs on doctrine, if they didn't they wouldn't be many Churches but one Church, doctrine has no impact on whether some is or isn't a Christian. Believing that Jesus of Nazareth is the Son of God and the anointed one of our Father in Heaven is the only requirement.

[Hughes]

Yes

It's too bad what Neoplatonism did to the gospel isn't it? The Trinity is nothing but Greek philosophy- Forms and Essences and Substance!

So you agree with me, that mormons are following a different Christ?

[Lareliw]

I am not an LDS member, but I am a seeker and I have started to study doctrine. While I am still learning, and boy there is a lot to learn, I do NOT believe that the LDS church follows a "different" Christ. They follow Christ's teachings above all others, and you can see the love of God and Jesus Christ in their words and actions.

So you agree with me, that mormons are following a different Christ?

[Calm]

.

I think to truly determine Christianity on grounds of theology and doctrine (also something I don't think we should be worrying about) we need to look at the Christian Frame work prior to the LDS restoration and then compare the Mormon theological frame work with that.

Have you read Offenders for a Word?

[Hughes]

I am not an LDS member, but I am a seeker and I have started to study doctrine. While I am still learning, and boy there is a lot to learn, I do NOT believe that the LDS church follows a "different" Christ. They follow Christ's teachings above all others, and you can see the love of God and Jesus Christ in their words and actions.

I don't think Mormons follow Christ's teachings from a biblical perspective, what they do is follow the teachings of Joseph Smith as he taught about Christ. Hence, it's a different Christ, and a restored "teaching" is a different teaching and a different Christ, and different gospel.

If it was the same, why the differences? Why would Joseph Smith call the churches apostate if he wanted to be called Christian as they are?