Weak Spots in Mormon Theology

[FormerLDS]

I have a clue, do you? If you don't, go here: http://lds.org/study/topics/eternal-life?lang=eng

Link: "Eternal life, or exaltation, is to live in God's presence and to continue as families..."

LDS "Eternal life" is EXALTATION.

Are you saying you already HAVE EXALTATION?

Perhaps you should re-read your own links...

I think Elder Dallin H. Oaks said it best:

"Finally, in another usage familiar and unique to Latter-day Saints, the words saved and salvation are also used to denote exaltation or eternal life (see Abr. 2:11). This is sometimes referred to as the

[Deborah]

I always find it somewhat amusing when alleged LDS leave the church and claim to finally have found Christ and happiness in fewer scriptures and a lesser law. Of course it is comforting when you convince yourself you don't have to do anything to get the same thing a Latter-day saint seems to worry so much over.

Luke 12:48 says it well "But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

[FuturetwItblog_17075]

I always find it somewhat amusing when alleged LDS leave the church and claim to finally have found Christ and happiness in fewer scriptures and a lesser law. Of course it is comforting when you convince yourself you don't have to do anything to get the same thing a Latter-day saint seems to worry so much over.

Luke 12:48 says it well "But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

I have to agree here, Deborah. Everything that we learn about the universe seems to increase the complexity of the system, not decrease it. If God exists, it seems reasonable that our theology and understanding of him should also continue to grow increasingly more complex as our knowledge advances.

Evangelicals, at least in my experience, tend to reduce the theology of the Bible down to a few ridiculous and forced conclusions based on proof texting some of the writings of Paul. I think the basic flow of logic goes like this: Jesus is salvation -> Confess Jesus and you're saved -> You can't fall from salvation. Thus, the entire contents of the Bible can be reduced down to a single sentence -- quite remarkable.

Also, if this is true, this has some heinous consequences for the world. For example, if I can't fall from salvation, then perhaps I would like to become a serial arsonist. I've always liked fire, and I might enjoy watching stuff burn down on a massive scale. Once I've confessed Jesus, I'm okay to do this because I'm guaranteed that I'll go to heaven. Is that what you believe, Former LDS?

[FuturetwItblog_17075]

In response to the OP, the problems with LDS theology (or the theology of any religion for that matter) are numerous. Here is a short list of a few of my favorites.

1. God knows everything -- This seems absolutely impossible, both in a mathematical and real world sense. Does God know about every possible game of Go, of chess, of the position of every atom in each of the 300 sextillion stars in the universe? If so, how and when did he learn this information? Is his Godly brain big enough to contain this information? What about computational power? What about Godel's incompleteness theorem and Turing's extension to the computability of numbers?

2. Anthropomorphic God -- Is God really a perfect primate? Why isn't he a star, or a black hole, or a galaxy, or a clump of dark matter, or a tentacle creature from the planet Zorg? Why is the human body the "best" that the universe could invent in terms of helping intelligences to deify -- not only in this universe but in uncountably many universes that preceded it that also had primate Gods?

3. Scientific Evidence -- If God really exists and he wants people to know, why not take out an ad during the Super Bowl and blows up some mountains or something? Why all of the secrecy? Why doesn't God come down and submit himself to scientific testing? Why don't people regularly record angelic visits on camera? Why do shows like Ghost Hunters never find any evidence at all or supernatural beings in the houses they visit?

4. Exclusiveness -- Why does God really care which religion you belong to? Why do some people who believe in the "correct" Jesus (or in Jesus instead of Allah, or vice versa) get into heaven while the rest of us get stuck in some version of hell? Why is only one religious tradition valid anyway? Why is it okay in society to believe in angels and miracles but not to believe in ESP and werewolves?

5. Relevance -- Why did Jesus, the savior of the universe, decide to come down to exactly this planet, exactly 2011 years ago, and take upon himself a human form? Why on earth would humans be that important? Why not appear 1 billion years ago to a species 1 billion light years away? Why not appear to humans as a creature that lived in 21 dimensions and was made out of pure energy or as a wombat?

I could go on, but these are a few points about theology that just don't seem to make sense to me. As I said, there are many more.

[Rob Osborn]

A weak spot of doctrine in the church is the fate/reward of theose going to the telestial kingdom. There is a big disconnect regarding what various members believe here. It is said that these individuals never repent and are able to live in a portion of heaven having never repented. But, they also can never go to where Christ or the Father dwell which basically means that perhaps they aren't in the same heaven as the Father mentions in his "kingdom of heaven". Here we have an ambiguous place where members are not sure if they repent or not but are somehow saved on the merits alone that they never deny the Father. It is thought that they all bend the knee and confess Christ, but do so only in recognizing him and not actually following him. How then are they even saved from hell? Ah- here again is hwere some members believe that the telestial kingdom is damnation and a type of hell. This area is completely unknown and when discussed in any length in groups leads to more misunderstanding than leading to any truth.

[Katzpur]

Other examples occur to me, but I am wondering whether anybody else believes in the existence of "weak spots" in LDS Theology, and if so, what some of those might be.

I can think of only one and it just about drives me crazy when I start thinking about it. I'm willing to admit that maybe the "weak spot" is just in my own brain and that if I understood the doctrine better, I wouldn't see it as a weak spot at all. Nobody I've ever talked to, though, has ever been able to explain why it's not a weak spot, though, so to me, it continues to be one.

It's the belief that children under the age of accountability and people with dimished mental capacity will automatically go to the Celestial Kingdom. I understand that they would not have been capable of willfully sinning and should therefore not be punished, but don't these people continue to learn and make choices in the Spirit World after death, too? Let's take a seven-year-old child who dies. Had that child been allowed to live to adulthood, he might very well have taken a path that would have led him to commit some horrendous acts against his fellow men. But instead of living, he dies at an early age, and is said to be without sin. Why isn't he required to mature spiritually, hear and accept the gospel and receive the saving ordinances by proxy? Instead, he just gets to spend eternity in the Celestial Kingdom. What happened to free agency?

I've heard it said that the only reason he needed to come to earth in the first place was to receive a body. Now that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The trials and temptations we're subjected to here on earth are beyond the ability of a pre-mortal spirit to imagine. He couldn't have been sufficiently tested in the pre-existance without having a mortal body. If he was "so valiant in his pre-mortal life" that God allowed his life to end before the age of accountability, he would arguably have maintained that degree of commitment and faithfulness had he lived to a ripe old age. Instead, he didn't need to take the test at all! Doesn't this sound just a little bit like pre-destination to you?

[Katzpur]

A weak spot of doctrine in the church is the fate/reward of theose going to the telestial kingdom. There is a big disconnect regarding what various members believe here. It is said that these individuals never repent and are able to live in a portion of heaven having never repented. But, they also can never go to where Christ or the Father dwell which basically means that perhaps they aren't in the same heaven as the Father mentions in his "kingdom of heaven". Here we have an ambiguous place where members are not sure if they repent or not but are somehow saved on the merits alone that they never deny the Father. It is thought that they all bend the knee and confess Christ, but do so only in recognizing him and not actually following him. How then are they even saved from hell? Ah- here again is hwere some members believe that the telestial kingdom is damnation and a type of hell. This area is completely unknown and when discussed in any length in groups leads to more misunderstanding than leading to any truth.

I could be wrong, but I've always been of the impression that these individuals -- who would have not been resurrected until the Second Resurrection -- will spend the Millennium in "Hell" or the Spirit Prison, and that because they refused to accept the Savior's atoning sacrifice, will be made to pay the price for their own sins and then, finally, be allowed to enter the Telestial Kingdom at the end of the thousand years. To me, this impliest that they will ultimately recognize that they were sinful but could have been spared the agony of a thousand years of suffering. The fact that "every know will bend" and confess that Jesus is the Christ says that they will, in fact, have repented by the end of the Millennium.

[Deborah]

It's the belief that children under the age of accountability and people with dimished mental capacity will automatically go to the Celestial Kingdom.

It does presuppose some sort of pre-destination that such people are so innocent or worthy they are taken before they can sin. I doubt that's much comfort to parents who lose their little ones. I wonder though if there is more to this idea than we see.

I wonder whether it's not that they go automatically to the CK but that they are qualified, presupposing that in the Spirit World they continue to learn and obey. We know they still have to go through the steps to exaltation, that is by no means automatic.

[Katzpur]

It does presuppose some sort of pre-destination that such people are so innocent or worthy they are taken before they can sin. I doubt that's much comfort to parents who lose their little ones. I wonder though if there is more to this idea than we see.

I can't even begin to imagine losing a child, so I won't even try to second-guess what may or may not comfort a parent who does.

I wonder whether it's not that they go automatically to the CK but that they are qualified, presupposing that in the Spirit World they continue to learn and obey. We know they still have to go through the steps to exaltation, that is by no means automatic.

Hmmm. I was unaware of that teaching. Could you give me a scripture reference or something?

[Deborah]

Hmmm. I was unaware of that teaching. Could you give me a scripture reference or something?

You mean about exaltation? I don't know anything specific but it's what I've always heard taught.

[Lightbearer]

Other examples occur to me, but I am wondering whether anybody else believes in the existence of "weak spots" in LDS Theology, and if so, what some of those might be.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

No not in the least, in fact the prophets of the Book of Mormon worried about this, that they would be unable to plainly declare the Gospel in it's fullness so that there would not be endless disputations and questioning of the Lord's authority. Consider the following:

(Ether 12:23-28) "And I said unto him: Lord, the Gentiles will mock at these things, because of our weakness in writing; for Lord thou hast made us mighty in word by faith, but thou hast not made us mighty in writing; for thou hast made all this people that they could speak much, because of the Holy Ghost which thou hast given them; And thou hast made us that we could write but little, because of the awkwardness of our hands. Behold, thou hast not made us mighty in writing like unto the brother of Jared, for thou madest him that the things which he wrote were mighty even as thou art, unto the overpowering of man to read them. Thou hast also made our words powerful and great, even that we cannot write them; wherefore, when we write we behold our weakness, and stumble because of the placing of our words; and I fear lest the Gentiles shall mock at our words. And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness; And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them. Behold, I will show unto the Gentiles their weakness, and I will show unto them that faith, hope and charity bringeth unto me

[Katzpur]

Notice this warning:This constant criticism of the restored Gospel, this doubting of prophets and apostles words, this reviling of the coorelation committee, the murmuring against the manuals, even the denoucing of the Official LDS scriptures themselves, the criticism of the addresses at General Confernence... all this adds up to one thing in my mind, I dare not say it... but it is a fear I have for you, that not many days hence and you will retreat into the darkened spiritual state of many on this board who have alligned with the enemies of the Kingdom of God.

You've got a problem, man. I'm not sure who, specifically, your comments are directed to, but I haven't seen anybody criticizing the gospel, doubting the prophets, etc. I'm 62 years old, and was raised to not be afraid to question. An inquisitive mind is one of the greatest gifts my parents (my father, in particular) ever gave to me. I've never lost faith due to "unresolved issues." There are certain things that don't make sense to me, and when they don't, I look for answers, rather than just pretend that the questions don't exist. If that doesn't work for you, fine. But for a lot of us, learning starts with asking questions when things don't make sense. I don't ever want to stop learning, and as soon as I stop asking questions, that's going to happen. I'm a lot more worried about that than I am that I'm going to "retreat into [some kind of] darkened spiritual state." Sometimes there don't seem to be any good answers to our questions, and when there aren't, we have to be content to know that God will get back to us when He figures we're ready to understand. But there are many, many times when all that it takes to clear up a misunderstanding is for someone to provide a different perspective. So, if your remarks were directed in any way to me, I would suggest that you take me off your list of people to lose any sleep over.

[TAO]

Hmmm. I was unaware of that teaching. Could you give me a scripture reference or something?

Well, there is D&C 93:38

Every ^aspirit of man was ^binnocent in the beginning; and God having ^credeemed man from the ^dfall, men became again, in their infant state, ^einnocent before God.

So I think the point is... we must become as a child when we go back to him. The point of Earth was to come get a body, and endure the trials of the world. Those children who died before the age of accountability were pure enough that they didn't need the trials of the world to obey, I think. They just needed to come to Earth and get a body and the temple ordinances... and that be it.

Psalms 24: 3-4 says:

Who shall ^aascend into the hill of the Lord? or who shall stand in his ^bholy place?

He that hath ^aclean ^bhands, and a ^cpure ^dheart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto ^evanity, nor ^fsworn ^gdeceitfully.

The Lord knows when we will be taken away, and has placed us upon the Earth in a way that we recieve all we need to come back to him. They who die before the age of accountability have everything they need to come back to him, and if they do not, they will have it by the time they make their decision in the spirit world. All the preparation, be it here or in the spirit world, is for that choice, that choice to follow him. I think little children, not having been exposed to Satan enough to corrupt their heart unto sin, are willing to do what the Father wills them, and thus, will inherit the kingdom of God.

But those are my thoughts on it. Let me think on it some more... I might find some cool stuff.

[Katzpur]

Well, there is D&C 93:38

That doesn't appear to address my question.

So I think the point is... we must become as a child when we go back to him. The point of Earth was to come get a body, and endure the trials of the world. Those children who died before the age of accountability were pure enough that they didn't need the trials of the world to obey, I think. They just needed to come to Earth and get a body and the temple ordinances... and that be it.

So basically, they got to pass the test without ever having taken it. And since God obviously knew they would pass the test, He made sure they wouldn't have to take it. What about when these spirits got to the Spirit World? Were they compelled to accept the gospel when it is presented to them? What happens if they didn't? Can anyone seriously believe that every single person who has died before the age of accountability would have ended up accepting the gospel and living worthily to enter the Celestial Kingdom had they been allowed to live? To me, this still sounds like pre-destination -- which is something I know we definitely don't teach.

But those are my thoughts on it. Let me think on it some more... I might find some cool stuff.

That would be great. Seriously, I'm not trying to be as difficult as I might be coming across. It's just that when I read the OP, this doctrine immediately came to mind. Actually, the best answer I've heard yet was from my stake president who essentially agreed with me that it didn't seem quite fair but that since we know that God is fair and just, we just have to accept the fact that maybe this is one of those things we don't yet have all of the facts on. In a way, his answer didn't fully satisfy me, and yet I think he was probably right.

[TAO]

So basically, they got to pass the test without ever having taken it.

No they didn't. The spirit test is to... be willing to submit completely to your Father. We come to Earth to get a body (and have children) and to get temple ordinances. Some of us in addition come to Earth to fix an unwilling soul... and I think (but do not know) that God takes those who already have a willing soul and have a better purpose in the spirit world before the age of accountability.

And since God obviously knew they would pass the test, He made sure they wouldn't have to take it.

Yes, God knew every person who would pass the test. He sent those of us who still needed a fully submitted will for longer stays on Earth (although it may also be to help service others on Earth too).

What about when these spirits got to the Spirit World? Were they compelled to accept the gospel when it is presented to them?

I believe as intelligences, they had the will to accept them already. So when offered, it was given.

What happens if they didn't? Can anyone seriously believe that every single person who has died before the age of accountability would have ended up accepting the gospel and living worthily to enter the Celestial Kingdom had they been allowed to live? To me, this still sounds like pre-destination -- which is something I know we definitely don't teach.

Let me look up some more information... I will tell you though... predestination does not exist... but preknowledge does. The two can be confused easily, but the latter is what exists.

That would be great. Seriously, I'm not trying to be as difficult as I might be coming across.

Your not being difficult. These are the thoughtful conversations I like having. I'm going to try and ask the mods whether we can have a forum for thoughtful conversations about exploring the existence of things apart from debate, in hopes that more of these conversations come up =). I like them much more - they bring me closer to God, that they do.

It's just that when I read the OP, this doctrine immediately came to mind. Actually, the best answer I've heard yet was from my stake president who essentially agreed with me that it didn't seem quite fair but that since we know that God is fair and just, we just have to accept the fact that maybe this is one of those things we don't yet have all of the facts on.

I agree, we don't have all the facts on it. One thing I am thinking of though is that it doesn't say all of them will be exalted. I think perhaps, for them, a choice is still needed to be made, but that choice separates the difference between the celestial kingdom and exaltation. But I'm still looking through that part of it.

In a way, his answer didn't fully satisfy me, and yet I think he was probably right.

Your priesthood leaders are probably better people to ask than I; they are wiser and under more of the influence of God than I am =). Trust in them.

[volgadon]

We see through a glass, darkly. Of course there are going to be weak spots in our theology due to that.

[Rob Osborn]

I could be wrong, but I've always been of the impression that these individuals -- who would have not been resurrected until the Second Resurrection -- will spend the Millennium in "Hell" or the Spirit Prison, and that because they refused to accept the Savior's atoning sacrifice, will be made to pay the price for their own sins and then, finally, be allowed to enter the Telestial Kingdom at the end of the thousand years. To me, this impliest that they will ultimately recognize that they were sinful but could have been spared the agony of a thousand years of suffering. The fact that "every know will bend" and confess that Jesus is the Christ says that they will, in fact, have repented by the end of the Millennium.

Two points here that always arise. The first point is that they will be made to pay the price for their own sins. There is no paying the price for ones sins and gaining salvation without gospel obedience.. Paying the price through a penalty of suffering does no good without the atonement of Christ. Christ is the one who paid the price for our sins. No suffering we do on our part pays the penalty, that is why we need Christ.

The second point here is that it never actually says they repent. Repentance requires faith in Christ, repenting and then baptism. The terrestrial are said to gain this forgiveness but for the telestial it never says such. The telestial are thus categorized as the unrepentant.

These two points alone beg for a good case in the weakness of the doctrine. How are they thus saved if they never accept Christ?

[volgadon]

3. Scientific Evidence -- If God really exists and he wants people to know, why not take out an ad during the Super Bowl and blows up some mountains or something?

What good would that do? And who the heck watches superbowl outside the USA.

Why all of the secrecy?

Because walking by faith cleanses and purifies a person far more than a staggering pyrotechnic show would. In film terms, character developement versus special effects.

Why doesn't God come down and submit himself to scientific testing?

At the risk of repeating myself, I'll ask again what good would that do.

Why don't people regularly record angelic visits on camera?

What for?

Why do shows like Ghost Hunters never find any evidence at all or supernatural beings in the houses they visit?

What evidence should they be finding?

5. Relevance -- Why did Jesus, the savior of the universe, decide to come down to exactly this planet, exactly 2011 years ago, and take upon himself a human form? Why on earth would humans be that important?

Why aren't we?

Why not appear 1 billion years ago to a species 1 billion light years away?

Why them and not a species 37.5789636521 trillion years ago 37.5789636521 trillion light years away?

Why not appear to humans as a creature that lived in 21 dimensions and was made out of pure energy or as a wombat?

Why appear as such a thing?

I could go on, but these are a few points about theology that just don't seem to make sense to me. As I said, there are many more.

So could I. These are just a few points about your comments that just don't seem to make sense.

[rodheadlee]

The teaching that all children who die before the age of accountability are automatically saved in the Celestial Kingdom is a weak spot. The best thing you can do for your children, therefore, is to kill them before their 8th birthday.

That is false because they would never have the chance to experience marriage and all that comes with it. Are they still able to reach the highest Glory? It's a weak spot in my own studies.

[Calm]

I can think of only one and it just about drives me crazy when I start thinking about it. I'm willing to admit that maybe the "weak spot" is just in my own brain and that if I understood the doctrine better, I wouldn't see it as a weak spot at all. Nobody I've ever talked to, though, has ever been able to explain why it's not a weak spot, though, so to me, it continues to be one.

It's the belief that children under the age of accountability and people with dimished mental capacity will automatically go to the Celestial Kingdom. .....But instead of living, he dies at an early age, and is said to be without sin. Why isn't he required to mature spiritually, hear and accept the gospel and receive the saving ordinances by proxy? Instead, he just gets to spend eternity in the Celestial Kingdom. What happened to free agency?

I've heard it said that the only reason he needed to come to earth in the first place was to receive a body. Now that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. ..... Instead, he didn't need to take the test at all! Doesn't this sound just a little bit like pre-destination to you?

This is the only thing that doesn't fit in what is to me a very logical structure overall (this does not include things we don't have information on, I'm talking about doctrine that appears to contradict on the face of it other doctrine).

The interpretation that it is because they didn't need the test, that they would have passed it anyway makes it appear as if those who died are all spiritually more advanced than those who lived past the age of accountability...but then we have teachings describing at least some of those who did live to an older age and were accountable as the noble and great ones...but why would God give others a pass on testing while putting these who were among the greatest in 'harm's way' so to speak. Why would they need the chance to grow etc. and yet the others don't? Did the great ones only come to earth for others, did mortality teach them nothing of importance? Seems less efficient than I've imagined the Lord being.

I figure there are some steps we are not now currently aware of that make it hold together with other doctrine once all the pieces can be seen.

[frankenstein]

Two points here that always arise. The first point is that they will be made to pay the price for their own sins. There is no paying the price for ones sins and gaining salvation without gospel obedience.. Paying the price through a penalty of suffering does no good without the atonement of Christ. Christ is the one who paid the price for our sins. No suffering we do on our part pays the penalty, that is why we need Christ.

it would be nice if you stopped posted against what the Church teaches.

from Gospel Principles Chapter 46

Telestial

These people did not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus either on earth or in the spirit world. They will suffer for their own sins in hell until after the Millennium, when they will be resurrected.

[FuturetwItblog_17075]

I can't figure out how to do the "multiquote" thing, so you'll have to bear with me.

What good would that do? And who the heck watches superbowl outside the USA.

How about the world cup then? The point is, if God exists, why not make a very, very public showing so there is no doubt?

Because walking by faith cleanses and purifies a person far more than a staggering pyrotechnic show would. In film terms, character developement versus special effects.

Or not. By leaving the world to walk by faith, the world has responded with war, selfishness, disobedience, and cruelty. Wouldn't at least some of these be reduced if people knew God was going to kick butt in the afterlife?

At the risk of repeating myself, I'll ask again what good would that do.

It would prove, once and for all, that God lives -- with little room for argument. You would probably think that it's beneficial for people to know of the existence of God WITHOUT proof -- why not even better to know God exists WITH proof?

What for?

What do you mean what for? Wouldn't YOU record an angel on camera? I would. Also, if they were a frequent event, it seems like someone, somewhere should have captured one visiting on camera and uploaded it to Youtube by now, wouldn't ya think?

What evidence should they be finding?

Evidence of the supernatural. Again, if there is a realm of beings/things that interact with the world we live in not explained by science, why can't the people looking for that realm in a systematic manner (i.e. Ghost Hunters) ever seem to find evidence of it?

Why aren't we?

Because we're an unremarkable species existing for the past 100,000 years or so (versus the 14.5 billion or so years the universe has been here) on a thin layer of a small planet orbiting an unremarkable star in a universe containing about 300 sextillion stars. What part of that description right there says to you, "Humans are so important that they even had the God of the Universe come live with them for a while?"

Why them and not a species 37.5789636521 trillion years ago 37.5789636521 trillion light years away?

First, that's bigger and older than the universe. Second, you're just repeating my question, which I'm guessing means you agree with me here?

Why appear as such a thing?

Why not? Why would the God of an enormous universe appear as a primate instead?

So could I. These are just a few points about your comments that just don't seem to make sense.

Only if you're being deliberately obtuse. I think you understood my points just fine, which is why you felt compelled to answer them.

[mercyngrace]

According the Heber J. Grant, children who die assume their mature spirit form in the Spirit world. We can only assume that they experience the spirit world in the same manner that we all do until they reach the point at which they are prepared to be resurrected.

The conflict you are seeing disappears once you accept the that resurrection is a sort of culmination of progression through the spirit world rather than a state which can co-exist with imperfection and unrighteousness.

We cannot even be resurrected until we are celestial material. See the following quote from the RS/PH Pres. Brigham Young manual (ch.38):

If a person is baptized for the remission of sins, and dies a short time thereafter, he is not prepared at once to enjoy a fulness of the glory promised to the faithful in the Gospel; for he must be schooled while in the spirit, in the other departments of the house of God, passing on from truth to truth, from intelligence to intelligence, until he is prepared to again receive his body and to enter into the presence of the Father and the Son. We cannot enter into celestial glory in our present state of ignorance and mental darkness (DBY, 378

[nicolasconnault]

This is the only thing that doesn't fit in what is to me a very logical structure overall (this does not include things we don't have information on, I'm talking about doctrine that appears to contradict on the face of it other doctrine).

The interpretation that it is because they didn't need the test, that they would have passed it anyway makes it appear as if those who died are all spiritually more advanced than those who lived past the age of accountability...but then we have teachings describing at least some of those who did live to an older age and were accountable as the noble and great ones...but why would God give others a pass on testing while putting these who were among the greatest in 'harm's way' so to speak. Why would they need the chance to grow etc. and yet the others don't? Did the great ones only come to earth for others, did mortality teach them nothing of importance? Seems less efficient than I've imagined the Lord being.

I figure there are some steps we are not now currently aware of that make it hold together with other doctrine once all the pieces can be seen.

Unless I'm mistaken, children who die before the age of accountability will be raised at the first resurrection and inhabit the earth during the Millennium. I think it's a little too easy to gloss over that period of time, thinking of it as some sort of idyllic garden of Eden, with simple technology and a simple, uncomplicated life without trials or sorrow. I tend to think that, despite marvellous blessings being poured out on the earth, existence will continue to be fairly "normal", with its share of difficulties, challenges and tough choices to make, even though Satan will be bound (whatever effects this will have on the mortal condition). So this opens up the possibility that these choice spirits will still receive a type of mortal probation.

[nicolasconnault]

In response to the OP, the problems with LDS theology (or the theology of any religion for that matter) are numerous. Here is a short list of a few of my favorites.

1. God knows everything -- This seems absolutely impossible, both in a mathematical and real world sense. Does God know about every possible game of Go, of chess, of the position of every atom in each of the 300 sextillion stars in the universe? If so, how and when did he learn this information? Is his Godly brain big enough to contain this information? What about computational power? What about Godel's incompleteness theorem and Turing's extension to the computability of numbers?

Forgive me, but that is quite funny, especially the bit about the size of God's brain! Do you realise that there is absolutely no correlation between people's brain size and the amount of knowledge they have? In fact the brain is apparently able to hold an infinite amount of knowledge. Scientists don't understand the mechanisms that make this possible, so I wouldn't use this as an argument in LDS religion discussions too often if I were you

2. Anthropomorphic God -- Is God really a perfect primate? Why isn't he a star, or a black hole, or a galaxy, or a clump of dark matter, or a tentacle creature from the planet Zorg? Why is the human body the "best" that the universe could invent in terms of helping intelligences to deify -- not only in this universe but in uncountably many universes that preceded it that also had primate Gods?

Why is this a weak point? Your question seems pretty random, I doubt this particular doctrine would pose a serious problem to most people. I find it easier to believe in an anthropomorphic God than in any other kind of God. Besides, without this doctrine, we couldn't really believe in the doctrine that we can become like Him.

3. Scientific Evidence -- If God really exists and he wants people to know, why not take out an ad during the Super Bowl and blows up some mountains or something? Why all of the secrecy? Why doesn't God come down and submit himself to scientific testing? Why don't people regularly record angelic visits on camera? Why do shows like Ghost Hunters never find any evidence at all or supernatural beings in the houses they visit?

This is a weak point for people with weak reasoning skills or weak desire to study.

4. Exclusiveness -- Why does God really care which religion you belong to? Why do some people who believe in the "correct" Jesus (or in Jesus instead of Allah, or vice versa) get into heaven while the rest of us get stuck in some version of hell? Why is only one religious tradition valid anyway? Why is it okay in society to believe in angels and miracles but not to believe in ESP and werewolves?

If Jesus really is the Son of God and has atoned for our sins, this is definitely not a weak point, but a necessary one. I also don't get your point about what's "okay in society". What does that have to do with the subject?

5. Relevance -- Why did Jesus, the savior of the universe, decide to come down to exactly this planet, exactly 2011 years ago, and take upon himself a human form? Why on earth would humans be that important? Why not appear 1 billion years ago to a species 1 billion light years away? Why not appear to humans as a creature that lived in 21 dimensions and was made out of pure energy or as a wombat?

If you trust that God has his reasons for doing certain things, this is not a weak point.

You know, it really feels like you're making this up as you go along, just in an effort to vent off frustration about your religion (assuming you're LDS). Your reasoning has no backbone, there is hardly anything to comment on (I'm starting to wonder why I bothered replying, in fact!).