staccato Posted January 15, 2011 Posted January 15, 2011 The reason is because HF is bound to the law of justice. He cannot break it. Thus, someone must be punished for our sins. What is this punishment... it is emotional grief at being seperated from God once we die. Jesus's crucifiction allows us to be forgiven, and thus, come into the prescense of God - for he can in no degree look upon iniquity. Now you might ask, well then why allow temptation in the first place? I tend to think two things... 1) We are capable of sinning of our own free will without temptation and 2) the temptation will help us become stronger which will allow us to inherit all God has to offer. For those who don't get the chance to become strong here on Earth, they will have the chance in the next life.Bzzztt. Wrong answer. God is not really God. He just plays one on TV. I thought this life was the time to prepare to meet God? The whole plan of salvation as outlined in mormon theology is a huge flaw, IMO. God has this great plan where, if man follows it, he will be happy. So he creates us all in a sinful state, doesn't inform the vast majority of humans they are actually being tested or what the terms of the test are or what allegedly will make this great happiness, and will judge all mankind, from these few mortal years, with limited information where they know next to nothing, for the whole of eternity.I'm gobsmacked anyone can follow this line of reasoning, much less buy off on it.
zerinus Posted January 15, 2011 Posted January 15, 2011 Vance and Hughes have a raised what I consider another weak spot in Mormon theology - the atonement. Why can't God just forgive us without allowing his son to be tortured and killed? I forgive people all the time without requiring them to do anything. Why is God different? Because the rocks, trees, and other matter won't honor God if he just forgives people outright (ala Cleon Skousen)?There is an answer to that question. It is not just a matter of granting "forgiveness". It is a matter of law and justice. In civil law, if someone commits statutory crime, for which a penalty is affixed by the law, and he is convicted of that crime, then the judge has to inflict the punishment. If someone is convicted of murder for example, and the statute says that penalty for murder is death or life imprisonment, the judge has to apply the law, and inflict the punishment. He cannot say, "Okay, tell me now that you have repented, and I will forgive you of your crime, and send you home instead of sending you to the electric chair!" He has to apply the punishment. The heavenly state being more perfect and exact, and God being eternal in His actions and decisions, that rule applies more perfectly and strictly to the heavenly state. When God establishes a law, He is bound by that law, and has to apply it. And God being eternal, those laws are eternal too, and last forever, an awesome thought! But apparently in the heavenly state, there is a way of getting around it, and that is through an atonement. And it is God Himself who makes that atonement, as taught in these verses:Alma 42:15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.16 Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed opposite to the plan of happiness, which was as eternal also as the life of the soul.17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?18 Now, there was a punishment affixed, and a just law given, which brought remorse of conscience unto man.19 Now, if there was no law given
TAO Posted January 15, 2011 Posted January 15, 2011 I thought this life was the time to prepare to meet God? It is - for those who obtain the opportunity in this life. Ammon's speech was to people who were alive, and had an opportunity to accept the gospel. You can also see if you read on... "for that same spirit which doth bpossess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world." Now those who have not had the opportunity do not have a spirit of non-acceptance do they? Why? Because they've never been given the chance. Thus, they will be given a chance in the eternal world.The whole plan of salvation as outlined in mormon theology is a huge flaw, IMO.Let's see what you view as flawed.God has this great plan where, if man follows it, he will be happy. So he creates us all in a sinful state, doesn't inform the vast majority of humans they are actually being tested or what the terms of the test are or what allegedly will make this great happiness, and will judge all mankind, from these few mortal years, with limited information where they know next to nothing, for the whole of eternity.Read this:D&C 82:3For of him unto whom amuch is bgiven much is crequired; and he who dsins against the greater elight shall freceive the greater gcondemnation.He allows us to come into a sinful world, to improve ourselves in the way he views it fit to make us improve. For some of us, that is in this life. For some of us, that is in the next. Those given little light in this life will recieve little condemnation from it - that is, those who don't know they are being tested won't be condemned for it, and their judging will be much easier than those who do know. Their time of testing will come in the next life; for this life is not the only one in which choices can be made; the judgment does not occur immediately after death for most.Staccato, what I like perhaps most about the gospel though, is that everyone will get a chance, whether it be in this life or the next life. For those of us who get the chance in this life, it is our time, for us to prepare to meet God. For those in the next life, it shall be their time then, and not now. And when the time comes then... they will have knowledge... and will be under responsibility.I'm gobsmacked anyone can follow this line of reasoning, much less buy off on it.I'm not sure how much you understand about LDS theology, but our ideology is that this isn't the only life... the next will be a turning point for many souls as well.Combined in this life and the next, we will all have the opportunity to make the choice in a full and fair manner, for we will know the things we need to know to make the choice in the next life if we don't make it in this one.
Alan Posted January 15, 2011 Posted January 15, 2011 But what is the "next life"? Is it just the spirit world or is there more to it?
TAO Posted January 15, 2011 Posted January 15, 2011 But what is the "next life"? Is it just the spirit world or is there more to it?The next life is the life before the judgement... it is paradise/prison... where those who haven't had the oppurtunity to accept and/or learn about the gospel will be given the chance to. It is what makes everything fair, and ensures everybody will go where they go because of their own free will.I'd imagine it's much like earth... but you won't have your physical body with you... that you have to wait for until the specified time...I could give more details... which part of the next life would you like to know about?
keithb Posted January 15, 2011 Posted January 15, 2011 The reason is because HF is bound to the law of justice. He cannot break it. Thus, someone must be punished for our sins. What is this punishment... it is emotional grief at being seperated from God once we die. Jesus's crucifiction allows us to be forgiven, and thus, come into the prescense of God - for he can in no degree look upon iniquity. Now you might ask, well then why allow temptation in the first place? I tend to think two things... 1) We are capable of sinning of our own free will without temptation and 2) the temptation will help us become stronger which will allow us to inherit all God has to offer. For those who don't get the chance to become strong here on Earth, they will have the chance in the next life.Well, why can't he break the law? He is God after all, and it's his law. Either that, or the law in some sense is greater than God (and maybe we should worship the law instead of God?). I'm not trying to either be blasphemous or a jerk, but these things have never made sense to me. I don't understand what God allowing his righteous, innocent son to be tortured really has to do with him being able to forgive or not forgive us for for our sins. If the law of justice really is that powerful and unbreakable, even by God, then it throws into question the whole idea that God is the supreme power in the universe.
zerinus Posted January 15, 2011 Posted January 15, 2011 Well, why can't he break the law? He is God after all, and it's his law. Either that, or the law in some sense is greater than God (and maybe we should worship the law instead of God?). I'm not trying to either be blasphemous or a jerk, but these things have never made sense to me. I don't understand what God allowing his righteous, innocent son to be tortured really has to do with him being able to forgive or not forgive us for for our sins. If the law of justice really is that powerful and unbreakable, even by God, then it throws into question the whole idea that God is the supreme power in the universe.God is bound by His own word, which is His law:D&C 82:10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.
thesometimesaint Posted January 16, 2011 Posted January 16, 2011 keithb:For God to break his own laws would make him not God.
keithb Posted January 16, 2011 Posted January 16, 2011 keithb:For God to break his own laws would make him not God.Really? Why? Why would he stop being God? I know what it says in Alma, but logically why would this be true? Better yet, why not just realize the implications of the ill formed law that you're making and not make it in the first place? He is God, after all. Couldn't he see that his law of justice would eventually lead to the needless torturing of his son and the exclusion of tons of his kids from heaven?
TAO Posted January 16, 2011 Posted January 16, 2011 Well, why can't he break the law? He is God after all, and it's his law.Zenirus coverd it well... the Lord is bound by his own promises... he cannot break them. My speculation (keep in mind, it's just speculation) is that before you are exalted, you have to make some very specific promises... and he is holding to his word.Either that, or the law in some sense is greater than God (and maybe we should worship the law instead of God?).Na, the law is his word... but it was also the word of those before him. That law (those specific words) has/have been passed down for generations (again, I'm kinda speculating here).I'm not trying to either be blasphemous or a jerk, but these things have never made sense to me.Na, you aren't... your asking good questions... these are the questions that really are important... they are the ones I enjoy answering =D.I don't understand what God allowing his righteous, innocent son to be tortured really has to do with him being able to forgive or not forgive us for for our sins.Ok... I'm assuming you are Mormon, so I am going to get into some rather deep theology here that's very Mormonish.Basically... so... if we look at things... and this isn't said in the scriptures... but if we look at things... there is an order we see.One of those orders is the family... what do I mean? I mean that everybody has a Father and a Mother... and many have children. Up in Heaven this is true as well. Now jumping to the speculative.The speculation I would like to point out is that... God the Father may have had a Father. And if that is so, his Father may have had a Father as well... and the cycle goes on.. infinitely in the past. There was no 'beginning of Fathership'. And it will go on infinitely in the future, I believe.Now, God the Father I think, was perhaps not in this original position. Again, nothing is said about it in the scriptures... but you see, I think he rose to become a God... much like we will if we do the right things. But to become a God is a tough responsibility... and God the Father's Father set upon God the Father specific rules about governing... and those rules were given to him by his Father, and the Father before him, etc.Thus, the law has always existed and has been passed down for generations, as to specifying how exalted beings are to govern. You make a promise before you become exalted... and that is to govern according to the law of justice.What is the law of justice... it is the idea that everyone should get what they deserve... and that they may choose what they would like. However, in order for there to be joy... there must also be punishment... otherwise, you would not know what joy is. The whole point of being exalted is to be joyful... so there must be a punishment for doing things that destroy other people's joy, and one's own. Thus the punishment is sin... and the punishment in Heaven will be not being in the presense of the Father. This will be painful because we will know our guilt... and so achingly wish we had chosen differently. It'll be our own souls racking us... that is God's punishment. We will have missed out on the opportunities we could have had.Now, so we all sin in life... we all make mistakes. Now, we would have to suffer for these sins in agony. And we wouldn't be worthy for exaltation (we must be sinless for it). And so, God's son comes into play... Jesus Christ. He sacrifices himself for us by taking on all of our sins. And sacrifice is the 'grand exception' to the law of justice... it applies to the law of mercy. The law of mercy is one law, the law of justice is another, both passed down. When we accept Jesus Christ, and do all he asks us, we apply ourselves to the law of mercy. Else we apply ourselves to the law of justice. But Christ, importantly, must make a complete sacrifice... including his life for us... or else it could not be done. He did it, and so now we are able to ask for repentance from him.And so your question, might be then... why do we need the law? It's because, a God who stole from his children, or insulted his children for fun, or wasn't charitable, wouldn't be a great God would he? So, we must have the law to ensure just God's happen, and unjust one's do not.If the law of justice really is that powerful and unbreakable, even by God, then it throws into question the whole idea that God is the supreme power in the universe.God isn't all powerful keithb... there is one power God cannot overpower, no matter what, and that is, the power of choice. He made his choice to become exalted and give the law to us... because it will result in good things, and after all, it is the best law out there. So will we make our choices here, and he must let us stand or fall once we have a knowledge of all that is truth.Hope I explained that well... if you have any questions, just ask =).
TAO Posted January 16, 2011 Posted January 16, 2011 Really? Why? Why would he stop being God? I know what it says in Alma, but logically why would this be true?It would be because it wouldn't be worth serving him anymore. It's not worth serving an unjust or an unmerciful God.Better yet, why not just realize the implications of the ill formed law that you're making and not make it in the first place? He is God, after all. Couldn't he see that his law of justice would eventually lead to the needless torturing of his son and the exclusion of tons of his kids from heaven?The goal isn't heaven... it's exaltation... which is a bit more than that. However, exaltation has very strict requirements, and lessons must be learned to make sure people do things of their own free will for them to be exalted.Sorry, I know it's rather confusing =).
thesometimesaint Posted January 16, 2011 Posted January 16, 2011 keithb:Didn't you just love it when someone in authority over you "to do as they say, not as they do"?
keithb Posted January 16, 2011 Posted January 16, 2011 keithb:Didn't you just love it when someone in authority over you "to do as they say, not as they do"?I don't love it, but I'm not sure if finite standards can apply here. To me, the only reason for God to do anything is to help us in some way. This is why I believe he gives us commandments -- because our lives are better if we follow his advice. Whether or not God does those things himself is immaterial -- as long as it helps me in my life. I have to admit that I still can't quite resolve the arguments in favor of the atonement being necessary in my head. I still think God could have forgiven us without Jesus needing to suffer. Sorry.
Deborah Posted January 16, 2011 Posted January 16, 2011 If God wasn't a God of his word and if he didn't have set rules in place how could we trust him? He could do one thing for one person and something else for another with no consistency. Only a God of Law can be consistent and only a consistent God can be trusted.
TAO Posted January 16, 2011 Posted January 16, 2011 I don't love it, but I'm not sure if finite standards can apply here. To me, the only reason for God to do anything is to help us in some way. This is why I believe he gives us commandments -- because our lives are better if we follow his advice.That he does =).Whether or not God does those things himself is immaterial -- as long as it helps me in my life.The reason why he must do it, at least in my view, is because it allows me to trust him... I don't know if I could trust him if he was anything other than what he is.I have to admit that I still can't quite resolve the arguments in favor of the atonement being necessary in my head. I still think God could have forgiven us without Jesus needing to suffer. Sorry.That's ok... don't worry about getting it exactly right in your head... just know, that the reason Christ suffered was so he could experience and overcome all of our sins... pray about your questions, and God will give you the answer you need.For me, I believe our trials are pre-given to us... to make us stronger... that is I think the purpose of things in life... to make us stronger =).Also, scriptures you might like looking at... Alma 42, and 2 Nephi 9... they might fulfill some of your answers along with prayer =D.
staccato Posted January 16, 2011 Posted January 16, 2011 If God wasn't a God of his word and if he didn't have set rules in place how could we trust him? He could do one thing for one person and something else for another with no consistency. Only a God of Law can be consistent and only a consistent God can be trusted.We can't. And he doesn't even follow his own rules. "Don't kill, unless I decide to tell you to do so. Then kill." "Don't lie. Unless I decide to tell you to do so. Then lie." "Don't commit adultery. Unless I tell you to do so. Then commit adultery."God is not bound by his own laws.
TAO Posted January 16, 2011 Posted January 16, 2011 We can't. And he doesn't even follow his own rules. "Don't kill, unless I decide to tell you to do so. Then kill." "Don't lie. Unless I decide to tell you to do so. Then lie." "Don't commit adultery. Unless I tell you to do so. Then commit adultery."God is not bound by his own laws.God's main rule is if ye love me, keep my commandments.... you live by that law before the others. I'm pretty sure if the Lord tells you to do something that superceeds his other commandments, you should do this to obey the most important commandment of all.
staccato Posted January 16, 2011 Posted January 16, 2011 God's main rule is if ye love me, keep my commandments.... you live by that law before the others. I'm pretty sure if the Lord tells you to do something that superceeds his other commandments, you should do this to obey the most important commandment of all.That does not negate the fact he breaks his own laws.And go to bed, it is much too late for you to be up, young man.
Deborah Posted January 16, 2011 Posted January 16, 2011 That does not negate the fact he breaks his own laws.No, he does not. He may break what are man's interpretation of his laws. The law not to kill is in regards to taking innocent life. Laban was anything but innocent. Here are scriptural definitions for liar: 1 John 2:4 "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."1 John 2:22 "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."If we see a liar as he who denies Jesus Christ then we have a whole different look at what the scriptures say about liars and hypocrites.
CV75 Posted January 16, 2011 Posted January 16, 2011 I still think God could have forgiven us without Jesus needing to suffer.How does He forgive without a) having suffered the offense that needs forgiveness; b) being able to reverse the effects of the offense (more work); and, c) allowing the offender to enjoy blessings as if not having offended (more work)? All three are forms of His suffering and sacrifice in behalf of the offender.
CV75 Posted January 16, 2011 Posted January 16, 2011 "Don't kill, unless I decide to tell you to do so. Then kill."This in itself is a law. "Kill" is defined differently under various subsets of the law.
TAO Posted January 16, 2011 Posted January 16, 2011 That does not negate the fact he breaks his own laws.As said, God would be braking his own laws by healing on a Sunday, as he did in the NT. But he isn't - because it follows a higher set of laws. The highest set of laws... even higher than the higher laws, just consists of that one commandment.And go to bed, it is much too late for you to be up, young man. Lol, it was 9 when I was doing this XD... I live in Cali.
staccato Posted January 16, 2011 Posted January 16, 2011 So let's assume what you are saying is right. So IF God's laws are not our laws (or at the very least how we would interpret them), and we do not know what his laws are and/or that he is apt to change them at any time, we have no idea what God is doing and we should not expect God to fill any side of his bargain with the little people.
TAO Posted January 16, 2011 Posted January 16, 2011 So let's assume what you are saying is right. So IF God's laws are not our laws (or at the very least how we would interpret them), and we do not know what his laws are and/or that he is apt to change them at any time, we have no idea what God is doing and we should not expect God to fill any side of his bargain with the little people.No, that's why we have the spirit... so we can tell what God wants us to do. Most of the time, he doesn't want us to contradict the lower laws, but sometimes, he does. A good example; Abraham being told to sacrifice Isaac.
staccato Posted January 17, 2011 Posted January 17, 2011 No, that's why we have the spirit... so we can tell what God wants us to do. Most of the time, he doesn't want us to contradict the lower laws, but sometimes, he does. A good example; Abraham being told to sacrifice Isaac.You should know that this answer would not be at all satisfactory. Trying to determine the spirit is like nailing jello to a wall. Did he answer? Did he not answer? Was it really just a false spirit? Or was it just heartburn? Did it come from inside my head?
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