Weak Spots in Mormon Theology

[Fifth Columnist]

The reason God cannot just forgive us without the Atonement:

God makes gods of His children by giving us the opportunity to experience first-hand the full spectrum of the least we can be at point A (physically and spiritually dead) so that we can comprehend the most we can be at point B (eternal), or experience opposition in all things, eventually to the point God does. By definition, the gap between these two points requires an "at-one-ment" for us to stand with Him at point B.

I'm not sure I understand this. Your first point seems to be that God wants us to experience extreme suffering so that we can comprehend eternal glory and by definition the gap between these two requires an atonement. I'm sorry, I don't understand this logic at all.

He cannot just forgive us without the Atonement because without descending into each individual

[Fifth Columnist]

Has the eternal law of Justice been addressed in this thread. When a law is broken a price must be paid? I'm coming in a little late here.......

Does the eternal law of justice apply only to God? It doesn't seem to apply to me or most humans since we seem to be able to forgive people at will without any negative consequences.

[Fifth Columnist]

I think the Church removed this section of the discourse as being undoctrinal....No?

Joseph Smith made the statement. If the Church has repudiated it, I would like to know where.

[Fifth Columnist]

I don't believe that God can do anything. That notion certainly is not in the scriptures. IF God could do anything He wishes then you might have 1/2 a point.

Okay so you believe that God was incapable of creating an earth that is as crappy as this one. Do you have anything to back this up (scriptures, GA statements, etc.)?

[Fifth Columnist]

This is explained in Alma 42. See also 2 Ne 2, 9.

Yes, but those scriptures make no sense to me either. God will cease to be God if he forgives us without satisfying some eternal law of justice. Well, where did this eternal law come from? If it is an eternal law, why doesn't it apply to me and other humans (we can forgive people at will)?

How is this eternal law enforced? Is there an entity that enforces "eternal law" or is it self enforcing?

If this law is greater than God, meaning that it has the power to bust God down to where he is no longer God, then isn't the law itself the ultimate power and guiding force in the universe and not God? Doesn't the law become our God?

[CV75]

The one thing that I've never understood is this: if God is omnipotent, then why couldn't he understand the pain of his children without having to experience it in the flesh?

Because omnipotence and omniscience are two different things, and the value of the Atonement to us is in His actual doing it so that it actually exists for us to exercise faith in.

[CV75]

God wants us to experience extreme suffering so that we can comprehend eternal glory and by definition the gap between these two requires an atonement. I'm sorry, I don't understand this logic at all.

Wouldn't God know each of individual's hell simply because he is all knowing?

If I understand correctly, the agency aspect of choosing to fall and come to earth took place as part of the war in heaven, not in the garden of eden. Adam had no idea what was right and wrong in the Garden of Eden so how does that constitute exercising agency.

We experience A to comprehend / experience / appreciate B, and B can only be realized through an atonement since A is so far removed from it. A cannot become B on its own; it requires actual work to be done in our behalf. We need to go through this process and receive the help because we are not omnipotent and not omniscient. However, God in His power can accomplish it for us and does this work because He wants to and can.

Omnipotence and omniscience are two different things. The value of the Atonement to us is in His actually doing it so that it actually exists for us to exercise faith in, specific to our individual case. The Father as an immortal, exalted being did not execute the Atonement Himself, but gave that to Christ, who as God, could simultaneously experience mortality and the Godhood required to move us from A to B.

The importance of the individual nature of he Atonement is in its effectiveness. Otherwise it might be like a rich father tossing a bag of money into the street and announcing to the kids, "There's enough here for everybody, I don't really care what you use it for, just make yourselves rich." It does not draw his children unto him so that they really learn how to become rich and handle it well. Instead, it is like a rich man who gives out customized, individual grants according to need and ability, and carefully and lovingly coaches the willing and grateful children until they become as rich as he.

Agency was operative in the pre-mortal estate; the Garden was a pre-mortal state. As neutral as Adam

[Jon63]

We experience A to comprehend / experience / appreciate B, and B can only be realized through an atonement since A is so far removed from it. A cannot become B on its own; it requires actual work to be done in our behalf. We need to go through this process and receive the help because we are not omnipotent and not omniscient. However, God in His power can accomplish it for us and does this work because He wants to and can.

Omnipotence and omniscience are two different things. The value of the Atonement to us is in His actually doing it so that it actually exists for us to exercise faith in, specific to our individual case. The Father as an immortal, exalted being did not execute the Atonement Himself, but gave that to Christ, who as God, could simultaneously experience mortality and the Godhood required to move us from A to B.

The importance of the individual nature of he Atonement is in its effectiveness. Otherwise it might be like a rich father tossing a bag of money into the street and announcing to the kids, "There's enough here for everybody, I don't really care what you use it for, just make yourselves rich." It does not draw his children unto him so that they really learn how to become rich and handle it well. Instead, it is like a rich man who gives out customized, individual grants according to need and ability, and carefully and lovingly coaches the willing and grateful children until they become as rich as he.

Agency was operative in the pre-mortal estate; the Garden was a pre-mortal state. As neutral as Adam

[keithb]

Because omnipotence and omniscience are two different things, and the value of the Atonement to us is in His actual doing it so that it actually exists for us to exercise faith in.

Sorry, I meant omniscient. Also, I still don't see the value. Since God really is all knowing and all powerful, he could have experienced the pain of the atonement in any place and at any time, even from heaven. Why did he need to come down and die on the cross to experience our pain? Why didn't he experience it in heaven instead?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Okay so you believe that God was incapable of creating an earth that is as crappy as this one. Do you have anything to back this up (scriptures, GA statements, etc.)?

Do you have anything in the scirptures that backs up that he can create a crappy earth. See, the onus is on you to provide a scripture that claims "God can do anything he wants to". You made the claim that God can do what ever he wants to.

I merely stated that I am not aware of a statement that suggests that he can do what ever he wants to.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Does Mormon theology include God and Jesus as seperate beings?

Current Mormon Doctrine Yes

Book of Mormon No (Mosiah 15: 1-4)

First Vision Yes (Pearl of Great Price)

First Vision No (Original account written by Joseph Smith)

New Testament Yes (LDS/KJV Luke 10:22)

New Testament No (JST Luke 10:22)

I think the biggest weak spot of Mormon theology is that nobody knows what it is!

I disagree. I think it is rather obvious from an LDS standpoint that they are separate. The D&C makes that perfectly clear.

[CV75]

Since God really is all knowing and all powerful, he could have experienced the pain of the atonement in any place and at any time, even from heaven. Why did he need to come down and die on the cross to experience our pain? Why didn't he experience it in heaven instead?

It was for tangible benefit that He performed the Atonement in this world and not in heaven. All spiritual things must play out physically in order to become eternal (

[Trencher7]

I always find it somewhat amusing when alleged LDS leave the church and claim to finally have found Christ and happiness in fewer scriptures and a lesser law. Of course it is comforting when you convince yourself you don't have to do anything to get the same thing a Latter-day saint seems to worry so much over.

Luke 12:48 says it well "But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

I have a Baptist handout card left on my doorstep with the header "The Bible Way to Heaven".

1. "Recognize your condition". Check

2. "Realize the penalty of sin". Check

3. "Believe Christ died for you". Check

4. "Trust Christ alone as your savior". Check

So claiming we already have Eternal Life apparently isn't a requirement. By using their formula we are already saved, but simply just don't know it yet.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I have a Baptist handout card left on my doorstep with the header "The Bible Way to Heaven".

1. "Recognize your condition". Check

2. "Realize the penalty of sin". Check

3. "Believe Christ died for you". Check

4. "Trust Christ alone as your savior". Check

So claiming we already have Eternal Life apparently isn't a requirement. By using their formula we are already saved, but simply just don't know it yet.

The interesting thing is that during my mission in WV most poeple I talked to believed something along the lines of this card. I had several people tell me all I had to do to be saved was just confess Jesus and they had a scripture in Romans as their proof text. However comming to this board most EV types reject this easy believism. They also reject once saved always saved. I have to say that I actually find that rejection as a good thing.

[SilverKnight]

Could I inject another weakness of Mormon doctrine and christian doctrine as well: The need for a Savior at all.

It sounds blasphemous, but think about it.

Why are we as humans so utterly lost and bound for destruction by default?

It's a bit like sentencing a child to some terrible punishment before he has done anything wrong.

And even if we are somehow doomed, why can't God just forgive us?

Why all the theatrics of killing his son on the cross?

Anyone who is a Christian feel free to answer.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Could I inject another weakness of Mormon doctrine and christian doctrine as well: The need for a Savior at all.

It sounds blasphemous, but think about it.

Why are we as humans so utterly lost and bound for destruction by default?

It's a bit like sentencing a child to some terrible punishment before he has done anything wrong.

And even if we are somehow doomed, why can't God just forgive us?

Why all the theatrics of killing his son on the cross?

Anyone who is a Christian feel free to answer.

The interesting thing about threads like this is that we are trying to get to the ultimate "whys" of things. Often times you can ask why after any thing that is answered. Eventualy you will get "I don't know". I would not say these are weeknesses buy just unknowns.

[CV75]

Could I inject another weakness of Mormon doctrine and christian doctrine as well: The need for a Savior at all.

It sounds blasphemous, but think about it.

Why are we as humans so utterly lost and bound for destruction by default?

It's a bit like sentencing a child to some terrible punishment before he has done anything wrong.

And even if we are somehow doomed, why can't God just forgive us?

Why all the theatrics of killing his son on the cross?

Anyone who is a Christian feel free to answer.

We are lost in mortality because we chose to enter mortality in a spiritually less advanced condition than the Christ with the understanding that we could become like Him under the terms of the Atonement.

We were also less spirituality advanced than the Christ pre-mortality because of our choice and rate of progress in that estate, and also ever since we differentiated from that existence which was co-eternal with God.

The reason God can

[Zakuska]

The one thing I have found with "perceived" weaknesses in our Theology over the past 5 or 6 years is things that seem like weak spots actually in the end turn out to be some of the strongest and most compeling arguments for the BOM.

Take for example the Smithsonian matra of not to distant yore:

"No Perenial Rivers in all of Saudi Arabia"

http://www.nephiproject.com

DOH!

[consiglieri]

Exactly. So why didn't God just put Adam directly into this earth life without the fall charade (talking serpents, fruits that impart a cosmic understanding of right and wrong, etc., etc.)? It makes no sense to me.

It is an excellent question.

And Brigham Young had an answer to it.

But it kind of got steamrolled when precorrelation appeared at the turn of the century.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[keithb]

It was for tangible benefit that He performed the Atonement in this world and not in heaven. All spiritual things must play out physically in order to become eternal (

[Mammal]

My contribution, not sure if it's a weak spot or it's just that I don't understand it properly.

I know a man (now deceased) who to me was the epitome of the person who is going to be in the Celestial Kingdom.

He wasn't a plastic, smiley smiley, gushing Mormon - he was a solid, humble sort of a guy.

100% Home Teacher, not because he was ticking a box, but because he genuinely loved his families.

Was a great fellowshipper, spoke about the gospel to all who asked, served in all sorts of callings to the best of his ability.

To cut a long story short, he was exactly who we all strive to be. If anyone is getting into the top level it's him.

Now the confusion.

His wife (still alive) has never joined the Church. Has not been interested in attending Church, at all, for the entire time her husband has been a member (50 years).

My ponderings are this:

Will he be penalised because his wife rejected the Church? I understand that he will have the option of residing with her in one of the lesser Kingdoms but that seems to me to be a kind of penalty not of his doing.

Will it all be sorted out in the next life so that his wife can join him in the top level? This puzzles me more because it seems there's no eternal benefit in joining the Church - may as well wait till the next life.

Will they have to live papart for Eternity.

I guess this is a weak point from my perspective because I have questions but can't find proper answers, only more questions.

[CV75]

why not just forgive us without the theatrics? If Jesus was God in the preexistence, why couldn't he just secure the path for us to return from heaven? I mean, I understand the church's teachings about why Jesus came down to perform the atonement, but I think the same end could have been accomplished through another way that didn't involve crucifixion.

The key to the Atonement is not in the precise method of the Savior

[CV75]

My ponderings are this:

Will he be penalised because his wife rejected the Church? I understand that he will have the option of residing with her in one of the lesser Kingdoms but that seems to me to be a kind of penalty not of his doing.

Will it all be sorted out in the next life so that his wife can join him in the top level? This puzzles me more because it seems there's no eternal benefit in joining the Church - may as well wait till the next life.

Will they have to live papart for Eternity.

He will not be penalized. The same sociality that exists here will exist there; only the couple can determine how any dissatisfaction continues to play out. If a celestial being finds "opting out" the best solution for his immortal glory, there is no reason to deny him that privilege (though I find this implausible--it is like God deciding not to be God anymore).

His wife can join him on condition of receiving the Gospel. The benefit of not waiting until the next life, all things considered, is integrity, an eternal attribute which, if denied or rejected in this life, has no sound basis for continuation into the next life.

Whether they live apart or not would be their choice.

[Alan]

Personally the weak spots for me are:

1. God the Father was once a mortal man - this makes no sense to me.

2. There is only one life - I believe reincarnation can and does occur in some cases.

3. Some people will be permanently excluded from the celestial kingdom - why would God set up a system which guarrantees he is going to lose the vast majority of his children?

4. The teaching that Adam and Eve could not have children in the Garden and had to disobey God (which He really wanted them to do all along) in order to comply - this makes no sense to me.

As Judge Judy often says, if something doesn't sound right it usually isn't.

[TAO]

Not to be blasphemous, but this still strikes me as a bit hokey. I kind of agree with Silver Knight on this -- why not just forgive us without the theatrics? If Jesus was God in the preexistence, why couldn't he just secure the path for us to return from heaven? I mean, I understand the church's teachings about why Jesus came down to perform the atonement, but I think the same end could have been accomplished through another way that didn't involve crucifixion.

The reason is because HF is bound to the law of justice. He cannot break it. Thus, someone must be punished for our sins. What is this punishment... it is emotional grief at being seperated from God once we die. Jesus's crucifiction allows us to be forgiven, and thus, come into the prescense of God - for he can in no degree look upon iniquity. Now you might ask, well then why allow temptation in the first place? I tend to think two things... 1) We are capable of sinning of our own free will without temptation and 2) the temptation will help us become stronger which will allow us to inherit all God has to offer. For those who don't get the chance to become strong here on Earth, they will have the chance in the next life.