Progression in the Next Life?

[FutureTwitBlog]

I've been thinking a lot about the world, life, and eternity lately, and I am looking for people's opinions on a few subjects. First, what kind of progress/advancement is possible in the eternities? I know that the D&C says that progress is only possible (at least past a certain limit) when a person makes it to the highest level of the celestial kingdom. Do you agree or disagree with this statement?

Second, if progress is not possible past a certain point for the other kingdoms, what will the people there be doing for all eternity?

Also, before you respond, I would like you to think about this problem from a new angle. I'm sure that we can both do a search on lds.org and quote some scriptures on the subject. I probably know what they are without you having to quote them to me, and vice versa. However, consider this. In our universe, there is estimated to be 300 sextillion stars (that's 300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) stars -possibly more. Also, as huge as that number is, the stars in the universe only make up about 5% of the mass of the universe, with the rest being split about 3:1 between dark energy and dark matter. Of course, this is the universe we KNOW about -- it could be much larger and more complex. Also, eternity is a long time. How long? Well, the universe is about 15 billion years old by all accounts, with the earth about 4 billion years old. As old as this is, this is nothing compared to infinity (eternity). Eternity is longer than 10^10^10^10 . . . ^10, no matter how many times we repeat that (as long as it's finite). it's even bigger than something like the "busy beaver 1000" number -- which is large beyond comprehension. I want to emphasize that it's LONG. With that in mind, please try to reason this out with me.

Sorry to ramble. Thanks.

[nicolasconnault]

I've been thinking a lot about the world, life, and eternity lately, and I am looking for people's opinions on a few subjects. First, what kind of progress/advancement is possible in the eternities? I know that the D&C says that progress is only possible (at least past a certain limit) when a person makes it to the highest level of the celestial kingdom. Do you agree or disagree with this statement?

Second, if progress is not possible past a certain point for the other kingdoms, what will the people there be doing for all eternity?

Also, before you respond, I would like you to think about this problem from a new angle. I'm sure that we can both do a search on lds.org and quote some scriptures on the subject. I probably know what they are without you having to quote them to me, and vice versa. However, consider this. In our universe, there is estimated to be 300 sextillion stars (that's 300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) stars -possibly more. Also, as huge as that number is, the stars in the universe only make up about 5% of the mass of the universe, with the rest being split about 3:1 between dark energy and dark matter. Of course, this is the universe we KNOW about -- it could be much larger and more complex. Also, eternity is a long time. How long? Well, the universe is about 15 billion years old by all accounts, with the earth about 4 billion years old. As old as this is, this is nothing compared to infinity (eternity). Eternity is longer than 10^10^10^10 . . . ^10, no matter how many times we repeat that (as long as it's finite). it's even bigger than something like the "busy beaver 1000" number -- which is large beyond comprehension. I want to emphasize that it's LONG. With that in mind, please try to reason this out with me.

Sorry to ramble. Thanks.

I see what you mean. It would be like playing WoW for eternity stuck at level 150...

I really have no idea what people will be doing during the eternities. I have some idea that the work of salvation is eternal and somewhat cyclic, so at least those who live in a celestial glory will be kept happily busy. I really don't know about the lower kingdoms. I think I've heard/read somewhere that existence will be similar to what we experience here, but without mortality it seems that most of our activities lose their meaning.

I also wonder whether the measurement of time will be as important as it is now. Do immortal beings have a circadian rhythm? Do they keep track of time by means other than the revolutions of planets and stars? There are many questions but not many answers

[urroner]

I believe that we will no longer be restricted to the spatial dimensions that we are limited to right now and, if that is true, I don't have the foggiest idea what a being in a higher dimension would be capable of doing.

[nicolasconnault]

I believe that we will no longer be restricted to the spatial dimensions that we are limited to right now and, if that is true, I don't have the foggiest idea what a being in a higher dimension would be capable of doing.

Play 4D games and watch 4D movies?

[Gordon]

Do you agree or disagree with this statement?

Well, I wouldn't say yes or no for certain.

In the scriptures, we see that eternity seems to be a specific amount of time.

"From eternity to eternity he is the same, and his years never fail." (D&C 76:4)

We also see, that Endless torment and damnation does not mean it will not end.

"Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment" (D&C 19:6)

"For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name." (D&C 19:10)

Second, if progress is not possible past a certain point for the other kingdoms, what will the people there be doing for all eternity?

Unimaginable things, I suppose.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I currently believe in some sort of opportunity for progression between "kingdoms," or as I prefer to think of them, degrees of glory, following this mortal probation. There are a few discussions on this topic at the newcoolthang blog:

http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/some-pro-progression-between-kingdoms-quotes/

http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2005/04/progression-between-kingdoms/52/

http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/05/permanent-judgment/241/

Although they are old discussions you can usually still jump in and comment and get a response.

[Ahab]

According to our doctrine, or at least according to my understanding of our doctrine, we only have so much time to prepare for eternity because after a certain point:

1) We won't be able to be baptized anymore, either for ourselves or for others, because the time for baptisms will come to an end, presumably after the Day of Judgment

2) We won't be able to be married anymore, either for ourselves or for others, because the time for marriage will come to an end, presumably after the Day of Judgment

So, whatever we'll be doing, we'll have to have already taken care of at least those things before the time for that "work" has come to an end, otherwise we'll be going through the rest of eternity without being baptized or married because the time to take care of those things, either for ourselves or others on this Earth, will have come to an end.

[nicolasconnault]

Something we often fail to realise, is that we will ultimately choose which degree of glory we receive. I'm not talking about a final, big choice. Rather, our walk in life, our everyday choices determine which degree of glory we are choosing. We then tend to think that the only possible progression in the eternities, if we haven't received our exaltation, is towards exaltation itself. However, it is possible that there are other ways to progress. For example, while here on earth I can continually progress in developing my talents. I can continually grow in knowledge, wisdom, and even Christlike attributes. I don't see why these types of progression would cease to be relevant in the Telestial or Terrestrial glories.

[BCSpace]

It's a tough question. I don't envision any possibility of progression to a higher kingdom because that makes all of this worthless. I can envision a situation where everyone progresses no matter what the initial glory but that no one overtakes a higher glory. In the long run, that doesn't seem to make much sense either.

[FutureTwitBlog]

According to our doctrine, or at least according to my understanding of our doctrine, we only have so much time to prepare for eternity because after a certain point:

1) We won't be able to be baptized anymore, either for ourselves or for others, because the time for baptisms will come to an end, presumably after the Day of Judgment

2) We won't be able to be married anymore, either for ourselves or for others, because the time for marriage will come to an end, presumably after the Day of Judgment

So, whatever we'll be doing, we'll have to have already taken care of at least those things before the time for that "work" has come to an end, otherwise we'll be going through the rest of eternity without being baptized or married because the time to take care of those things, either for ourselves or others on this Earth, will have come to an end.

I agree with what you've said from a doctrinal standpoint. However, from a logical standpoint, imagine that you're a being in a vast galaxy that has existed for the last 9,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years (but longer because you're eternal). Is not being symbolically dunked in a small body of water (which may not even be prevalent on your planet or poisonous to your species) in the name of your God really going to make that much of a difference in the long run? Imagine that you're sitting there, communicating with God one day and you say, "Ya know God, I've had the last 9,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years to think about the fact that I wasn't baptized when I was alive, and I think that I made a mistake. If I had it to do over again, I would have been baptised."

And, will God really respond, "Sorry, but that 80 (or whatever) year period that you were "alive" was the ONLY time, in your whole existence, that you could have been symbolically dunked in water so that you could progress to the level of a God, like me. I'm sorry, but the other 9,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years of your existence since just doesn't count, no matter what you've done in the mean time?"

I'm not disputing the doctrinal points with you, but logically I can't wrap my head around it.

[Jason]

It isn't the act of baptism itself that is important, it is what preceded the act (and what follows it). It is the willingness to commit to baptism on faith and the evidence of the Spirit rather than sure knowledge that shows a person to be of Celestial character, not the act itself. Billions of years from now, long after your memories of the pre-existence have been restored, it is too late to act through faith.

And I feel that God has ensured that the test will be a fair and just one. That is, if you didn't do it in this life, you won't ever do it. You already had the ideal conditions and won't ever get a better chance to show what you could do.

Of course, you have to continue on the path you started on, or that commitment of faith will have been wasted. Baptism is only the gateway, after all.

[thesometimesaint]

I think there is progression within the Kingdoms, but not between Kingdoms.

[Ahab]

I agree with what you've said from a doctrinal standpoint. However, from a logical standpoint, imagine that you're a being in a vast galaxy that has existed for the last 9,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years (but longer because you're eternal). Is not being symbolically dunked in a small body of water (which may not even be prevalent on your planet or poisonous to your species) in the name of your God really going to make that much of a difference in the long run? Imagine that you're sitting there, communicating with God one day and you say, "Ya know God, I've had the last 9,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years to think about the fact that I wasn't baptized when I was alive, and I think that I made a mistake. If I had it to do over again, I would have been baptised."

And, will God really respond, "Sorry, but that 80 (or whatever) year period that you were "alive" was the ONLY time, in your whole existence, that you could have been symbolically dunked in water so that you could progress to the level of a God, like me. I'm sorry, but the other 9,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years of your existence since just doesn't count, no matter what you've done in the mean time?"

I'm not disputing the doctrinal points with you, but logically I can't wrap my head around it.

Oh, you understand just fine. You may not like the idea, for some reason, but you can certainly wrap your head around it.

The only people who will be penalized for not being baptized will be those who hear the gospel and refuse to be baptized or accept a baptism that was performed for them by proxy, and if they later regret having refused to be baptized, when they still had the opportunity to accept it, they will then only have themselves to blame.

[Jason]

I think there is progression within the Kingdoms, but not between Kingdoms.

That is my belief as well. There may even be something akin to "infinite" progression in each of the kingdoms, but to my mind the opportunities available in the Celestial kingdom will never be available in the lesser kingdoms.

[Rob Osborn]

In the end all of the saved will be found upon this planet while all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone (hell). In the end there will only be two places- either the Celestial world (our world) or outer darkness. The telestial and terrestrial kingdoms will not exist anymore having both past away by fire. So, in reality all of the saved will be advancing in the ranks on the celestial world. Think about it-

In order to be saved from hell one must repent and be baptized. there is no other name or means that salvation comes to the children of men. Once baptized one meets the requirements of entrance back into the kingdom of heaven as a son or daughter of God. In the end, all that can be saved will be saved into the celestial kingdom of heaven. There will be no other place where the saved will go.

The temple teaches us these truths. The temple endowment is the "plan of salvation" in it's clearest presentation. It was given after all testimony of the prophets in the scriptures. In the temple we progress from the telestial kingdom to the terrestrial kingdom and then from there into salvation in the celestial kingdom. So, is there progression between kingdoms? Well, if you believe the temple endowment then one must accept the reality of progression between kingdoms. Does thatr progression happen after the millennium? No, it happens before. This earth right now is the "telestial kingdom" and the earth during the millennium is the "terrestrial kingdom".

[Ahab]

In the end all of the saved will be found upon this planet while all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone (hell). In the end there will only be two places- either the Celestial world (our world) or outer darkness. The telestial and terrestrial kingdoms will not exist anymore having both past away by fire. So, in reality all of the saved will be advancing in the ranks on the celestial world. Think about it-

In order to be saved from hell one must repent and be baptized. there is no other name or means that salvation comes to the children of men. Once baptized one meets the requirements of entrance back into the kingdom of heaven as a son or daughter of God. In the end, all that can be saved will be saved into the celestial kingdom of heaven. There will be no other place where the saved will go.

The temple teaches us these truths. The temple endowment is the "plan of salvation" in it's clearest presentation. It was given after all testimony of the prophets in the scriptures. In the temple we progress from the telestial kingdom to the terrestrial kingdom and then from there into salvation in the celestial kingdom. So, is there progression between kingdoms? Well, if you believe the temple endowment then one must accept the reality of progression between kingdoms. Does that progression happen after the millennium? No, it happens before. This earth right now is the "telestial kingdom" and the earth during the millennium is the "terrestrial kingdom".

This Earth as it is right now is a world of no glory at all, and if people could see what the worlds of Telestial glory are like... well, they would be able to tell the difference.

[Jason]

Rob, that's all your interpretation. I do not share it.

[cinepro]

Second, if progress is not possible past a certain point for the other kingdoms, what will the people there be doing for all eternity?

That's why I believe in progression between the Kingdoms. If God's true purpose is "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man", then why would a soul who desires to improve and move from the Telestial to the Terrestrial, or to the Celestial, be denied that opportunity?

Also, since I don't believe we lived as "family units" in the pre-existence, I'm not too sure what the whole idea of "families can be together forever" means. After all, we only spend a few Earth-years actually living with our "Earth families", and even fewer with individual siblings depending on the timing of births. And frequently, people don't really like their siblings and/or parents.

So, in the eternities, why is it considered to be a benefit and blessing to be able to be around those whom we know as "mom" or "dad" or "brother" or "sister", especially if we all appear to be the same age? And if an entire family ends up in the Terrestrial Kingdom, in what way are they not considered "together"?

Obviously, it makes more sense when we talk about husband and wife relationships. But even then, we are dealing with relationships that only last a few decades of Earth time. And what would the downside be to a husband and wife who are together forever in the Telestial Kingdom? If they don't desire to manage the functioning of a planet and endless posterity but instead just want to hang out and talk for eons, are they not "together"?

Obviously, some theorize that occupants of the Telestial and Terrestrial kingdoms can't have sex, but I'm not sure that's doctrinal. And if it is, we should probably be more clear about what, exactly, we're promoting when we teach people to aspire to the Celestial Kingdom.

[Jason]

That's why I believe in progression between the Kingdoms. If God's true purpose is "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man", then why would a soul who desires to improve and move from the Telestial to the Terrestrial, or to the Celestial, be denied that opportunity?

No one is denied the opportunity to be Celestial - but many apparently fail to take it during the time when circumstances make it possible to become Celestial.

And frequently, people don't really like their siblings and/or parents.

Celestial quality people are people who love everyone as themselves. That would include their siblings and/or parents.

So, in the eternities, why is it considered to be a benefit and blessing to be able to be around those whom we know as "mom" or "dad" or "brother" or "sister", especially if we all appear to be the same age?

It's a line of authority, from you through your parents to God. Your earth dad remains your Celestial dad.

And an important fact: you aren't sealed to your brothers and sisters - you are only sealed to your parents and your children.

And if an entire family ends up in the Terrestrial Kingdom, in what way are they not considered "together"?

Because the sealing is no longer in effect. The line between you and God is broken because the people you would have been sealed to are not in God's presence.

And what would the downside be to a husband and wife who are together forever in the Telestial Kingdom? If they don't desire to manage the functioning of a planet and endless posterity but instead just want to hang out and talk for eons, are they not "together"?

But the purpose of being husband and wife is to have joy and rejoicing in your posterity, not to "hang out". If you don't want posterity you don't need to be married to "hang out".

[Rob Osborn]

This Earth as it is right now is a world of no glory at all, and if people could see what the worlds of Telestial glory are like... well, they would be able to tell the difference.

Glory means "light and truth". This earth has the glory of the Holy Ghost- it is as the stars.

[Rob Osborn]

Rob, that's all your interpretation. I do not share it.

That's fine, but it is the truth, we shall come to this understanding someday.

[Jaybear]

Obviously, it makes more sense when we talk about husband and wife relationships. But even then, we are dealing with relationships that only last a few decades of Earth time. And what would the downside be to a husband and wife who are together forever in the Telestial Kingdom? If they don't desire to manage the functioning of a planet and endless posterity but instead just want to hang out and talk for eons, are they not "together"?

I love my wife, but tied to one woman for all eternity doesn't sound like heaven to me.

I think I would prefer to spend 50-75 years with a woman, and then move on. With an eternity at hand, after I have been with 250 million different women, I can start over again.

[Ahab]

Glory means "light and truth". This earth has the glory of the Holy Ghost- it is as the stars.

No, this planet is not as one of the stars. It's still just a planet, with no glory at all.

Read the D&C section that describes the glory of the Telestial worlds, particularly the part where Joseph said they surpass our understanding.

There are many similarities between our current state and the Telestial state, as well as the Terrestrial and Celestial state, but we're not glorified beings yet, Rob, and this particular planet hasn't been given any glory yet, either.

[MDalby]

It is interesting to see posters state, "I think..."

I hate to be really blunt but, I don't really care what people think, other than the prophets and the scriptures. Why don't we just state what the prophets have said on the topic.

"The position of the First Presidency on progression from one kingdom to a higher glory after the resurrection and judgment is that the Lord has not revealed this knowledge to mankind. Speculation and supposition on this topic is inappropriate."

(Memorandum from the First Presidency through the Church Correlation Department to Church curriculum writers, 2001)

[Jason]

I love my wife, but tied to one woman for all eternity doesn't sound like heaven to me.

I think I would prefer to spend 50-75 years with a woman, and then move on. With an eternity at hand, after I have been with 250 million different women, I can start over again.

Have you told your wife this? Somehow I doubt it would go over well.