thesometimesaint Posted January 4, 2011 Posted January 4, 2011 Rob Osborn:This world is not any Kingdom of Glory, nor is it Outer Darkness. We are here to see which of those we will spend our eternities in.
mercyngrace Posted January 4, 2011 Posted January 4, 2011 Rob Osborn:This world is not any Kingdom of Glory, nor is it Outer Darkness. We are here to see which of those we will spend our eternities in.TSS, Are you seeing a distinction between "world" and "kingdom"? There's no question this is the telestial world.When Adam and Eve willingly stepped into mortality, they knew this telestial world would contain thorns and thistles and troubles of every kind. ~ Elder Holland GC 10/08I agree though that it's not a degree of glory as those are contained within the Celestial (God's) kingdom (D&C 131).
cinepro Posted January 4, 2011 Posted January 4, 2011 Time for us is measured because we "age". In this sense, time is not measured to God because he doesn't age. But, as it applies to the sequence of natural events then yes, time applies to all things, God himself cannot escape this.Once we are in the post-mortal existence, how can there be a logical "deadline" after which a person who desires to improve into a Celestial state is no longer allowed to do so?Some people are able to qualify for the Celestial Kingdom after a few decades of Earth-time. Others get there because they died before the age of accountability.But what if there is a soul that needs 72 billion Earth years before they are able to aspire to Celestialhood and do those things needed to achieve it? Will God really disqualify them based on a "line in the sand" on a timeline somewhere? What could be the purpose of that if He truly wants everyone to reach their maximum potential?
SilverKnight Posted January 4, 2011 Posted January 4, 2011 Once we are in the post-mortal existence, how can there be a logical "deadline" after which a person who desires to improve into a Celestial state is no longer allowed to do so?Some people are able to qualify for the Celestial Kingdom after a few decades of Earth-time. Others get there because they died before the age of accountability.But what if there is a soul that needs 72 billion Earth years before they are able to aspire to Celestialhood and do those things needed to achieve it? Will God really disqualify them based on a "line in the sand" on a timeline somewhere? What could be the purpose of that if He truly wants everyone to reach their maximum potential?The irony is that we criticize the 'Eternal Stagnation' heaven concept of mainstream christians, which is exactly what the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms appear to be.For Eternal Progression to have any meaning, it clearly must allow for the infinite progression of every last soul, not just those in the Celestial Kingdom.
nicolasconnault Posted January 4, 2011 Posted January 4, 2011 TSS, Are you seeing a distinction between "world" and "kingdom"? There's no question this is the telestial world.When Adam and Eve willingly stepped into mortality, they knew this telestial world would contain thorns and thistles and troubles of every kind. ~ Elder Holland GC 10/08I agree though that it's not a degree of glory as those are contained within the Celestial (God's) kingdom (D&C 131).Then how can the glory of the telestial be beyond mortal comprehension?
FutureTwitBlog Posted January 4, 2011 Author Posted January 4, 2011 Your analogy is pretty weak. Why did you pick a 6-year-old, who is obviously too young to realise what he was missing out on? I think you're well aware that anyone who rejects baptism by the time the final judgment comes will have received plenty of understanding, experience and knowledge, and will reject it in full knowledge of eternal consequences. This has nothing to do with God not forgiving us for making a little faux-pas, this is about us choosing to wilfully and knowingly reject the blessings of salvation, of which baptism is only one requirement.BTW I didn't miss you little Willy Wonka quote But, compared to what we will be in 90 trillion years, are we really much smarter than a 6 year old comparatively? Also, WILLY WONKA RULES!
Jason Posted January 4, 2011 Posted January 4, 2011 The irony is that we criticize the 'Eternal Stagnation' heaven concept of mainstream christians, which is exactly what the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms appear to be.For Eternal Progression to have any meaning, it clearly must allow for the infinite progression of every last soul, not just those in the Celestial Kingdom.But does the progression have to be in the same direction, with the same opportunities and same rewards?
Jason Posted January 4, 2011 Posted January 4, 2011 But, compared to what we will be in 90 trillion years, are we really much smarter than a 6 year old comparatively?Our mortal test is not a test of intelligence, it's a test of character.
SilverKnight Posted January 4, 2011 Posted January 4, 2011 But does the progression have to be in the same direction, with the same opportunities and same rewards?Ultimately? Yes.If exaltation is the most glorious thing attainable, it must be available to all, and not just for a limited time.Anything else is incompatible with an omnibenevolent God.Finite mistakes cannot result in infinite punishment.Universalism is the only philosophy that works.
nicolasconnault Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Ultimately? Yes.If exaltation is the most glorious thing attainable, it must be available to all, and not just for a limited time.Anything else is incompatible with an omnibenevolent God.Finite mistakes cannot result in infinite punishment.Universalism is the only philosophy that works.What if the only reason that progression towards exaltation is not possible for some is because they will never want to achieve it? It's not as if we're talking about a bag of goodies ready for the taking, this is the celestial law, it's tough!
SilverKnight Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 What if the only reason that progression towards exaltation is not possible for some is because they will never want to achieve it?A copout.If exaltation is as joyful and glorious at is described, then there is not one soul that would choose to languish in comparative infancy forever.It's not as if we're talking about a bag of goodies ready for the taking, this is the celestial law, it's tough!Certainly not.Why must the Celestial law be 'tough'? Is God's intent to exclude as many as possible from his VIP club?
nicolasconnault Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 A copout.If exaltation is as joyful and glorious at is described, then there is not one soul that would choose to languish in comparative infancy forever.Certainly not.Why must the Celestial law be 'tough'? Is God's intent to exclude as many as possible from his VIP club?I don't subscribe to your outlook on the plan of salvation. It makes the entire mortal experience meaningless.
Nathair/|\ Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 A copout.If exaltation is as joyful and glorious at is described, then there is not one soul that would choose to languish in comparative infancy forever.Certainly not.Why must the Celestial law be 'tough'? Is God's intent to exclude as many as possible from his VIP club?What does it mean to you to be exalted, to be a God?
AngelPalmoni Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 I've been thinking a lot about the world, life, and eternity lately, and I am looking for people's opinions on a few subjects. First, what kind of progress/advancement is possible in the eternities? I know that the D&C says that progress is only possible (at least past a certain limit) when a person makes it to the highest level of the celestial kingdom. Do you agree or disagree with this statement?Second, if progress is not possible past a certain point for the other kingdoms, what will the people there be doing for all eternity? Also, before you respond, I would like you to think about this problem from a new angle. I'm sure that we can both do a search on lds.org and quote some scriptures on the subject. I probably know what they are without you having to quote them to me, and vice versa. However, consider this. In our universe, there is estimated to be 300 sextillion stars (that's 300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) stars -possibly more. Also, as huge as that number is, the stars in the universe only make up about 5% of the mass of the universe, with the rest being split about 3:1 between dark energy and dark matter. Of course, this is the universe we KNOW about -- it could be much larger and more complex. Also, eternity is a long time. How long? Well, the universe is about 15 billion years old by all accounts, with the earth about 4 billion years old. As old as this is, this is nothing compared to infinity (eternity). Eternity is longer than 10^10^10^10 . . . ^10, no matter how many times we repeat that (as long as it's finite). it's even bigger than something like the "busy beaver 1000" number -- which is large beyond comprehension. I want to emphasize that it's LONG. With that in mind, please try to reason this out with me. Sorry to ramble. Thanks.Incredibly good Question.. I have only met one person who can comprehend eternity and when he explained it to me my head exploded lol. You really have to prepare yourself for the answer sometimes. I don't have the Answer that is for sure... But I like the question very much
mercyngrace Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Then how can the glory of the telestial be beyond mortal comprehension?Because that's referencing the telestial glory within the Celestial Kingdom.D&C 131:1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees(telestial, terrestrial, celestial)
nicolasconnault Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Because that's referencing the telestial glory within the Celestial Kingdom.D&C 131:1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees(telestial, terrestrial, celestial)I wasn't aware of a telestial glory within the celestial kingdom, that's news to me. I was thinking along the lines of a distinction between "world", "kingdom" and "glory". The endowment video mentions that our current condition is the "telestial world", but obviously it is not yet glorified.
mercyngrace Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 A copout.If exaltation is as joyful and glorious at is described, then there is not one soul that would choose to languish in comparative infancy forever.I agree. Nearly all of God's children will, when given full knowledge, choose Christ. Some souls will absolutely reject the atonement even with full knowledge of their choice. These will be very few and will be sons of perdition. Some even suggest that marred vessels such as these sons can be remade in the hands of The Potter. (Jeremiah 18:4) That is conjecture, of course.Certainly not.Why must the Celestial law be 'tough'? Is God's intent to exclude as many as possible from his VIP club?The law being tough has nothing to do with God's intent. It's tough because it demands a radical change in nature - a metamorphosis of the soul isn't easy. The experiences of mortality (opposition, adversity, infirmity, pain, loss, separation, etc) facilitate change - even those who don't change in this life will draw on mortal experiences to progress in the next life (bright recollection of guilt, for example). It makes the entire mortal experience meaningless.Au contraire. The experiences of mortality are the ultimate catalyst for repentance both in this life and in the Spirit World.
AngelPalmoni Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 I do believe the sealing power exists in all the Lower Kingdoms, especially marriage. However you are together you cannot have Spirit Children. Just my Thoughts and many strongly disagree.
mercyngrace Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 I wasn't aware of a telestial glory within the celestial kingdom, that's news to me.An educated guess.
blackstrap Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 As far as what we will be doing for all eternity,it's obvious...playing harps and singing praises.On the other hand,If we are to learn about all creation then I see no better way than to experience the existence of each type of creation. If becoming one with my spouse then allows me to feel what it was like to be her/him then great.Otherwise it would be useful to experience life as a soldier,or cat ,or woman ,or alligator, or rock for that matter. How that might be done is unknowable to me. Still...
Rob Osborn Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Rob Osborn:This world is not any Kingdom of Glory, nor is it Outer Darkness. We are here to see which of those we will spend our eternities in.Every kindom God creates is a kingdom of glory to either some smaller or greater degree. We do know that when Christ comes again he will come in glory and the earth will receive it's paradisical glory- a greater glory than we have now.
thesometimesaint Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Rob Osborn:This life is the race to be won. It is not the reward.
Rob Osborn Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Rob Osborn:This life is the race to be won. It is not the reward.Is not this life a reward? What about those who lost their first estate? They did not meet the requirements to come to this world and have glory added upon their heads. This earth life is just one step of many we go through to achieve the glory that God has. We will have one glory added upon another and another until we become like God.
thesometimesaint Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Rob Osborn:This life is not a reward for keeping our first estate. At best it is the second part of a two part test. IE. When I got my first drivers license there was first the written exam. Those that did not pass that test were not allowed to take the driving part of the test. I then had to pass the driving part of the test to be reward with my license.
mercyngrace Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Rob Osborn:This life is not a reward for keeping our first estate. At best it is the second part of a two part test. IE. When I got my first drivers license there was first the written exam. Those that did not pass that test were not allowed to take the driving part of the test. I then had to pass the driving part of the test to be reward with my license.TSS,I disagree. The proof that this life is at least partially a reward for those who kept their first estate is that sons of perdition get to keep their bodies.MnG
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