Metal Plates--Joseph Smith Mocked for His Discription

[Zakuska]

Is there any evidence that writing on plates was accepted by JS contemporaries? Any evidence that writing on plates was known at all?

yes there is evidence that writing on plates was known.

[Joseph Antley]

yes there is evidence that writing on plates was known.

I'd like to see this, if you have it.

[AtticusFinch]

the part hardest to accept is his claim of running, at night, over fields, outrunning three men, all on a bad leg. Assuming the plates were 50 pounds, that would be impossible.

I grew up in the country. I hauled 50-pound bags of feed and dog food all the time. I worked my way through college at a gravel pit and a ready-mix concrete plant. I was weight lifter (could bench 350) and ran 10ks. Back then, I was in excellent shape (wish I was now). But I gotta tell you, no way I could have, carrying a a 50-pound bag of dog food, run for three miles fast enough to outrun three men, in the dark, over fields (would be hard enough on paved roads, but over fields(Pot holes, rocks, stumps)on a bad leg?

[sansfoy]

I grew up in the country. I hauled 50-pound bags of feed and dog food all the time. I worked my way through college at a gravel pit and a ready-mix concrete plant. I was weight lifter (could bench 350) and ran 10ks. Back then, I was in excellent shape (wish I was now). But I gotta tell you, no way I could have, carrying a a 50-pound bag of dog food, run for three miles fast enough to outrun three men, in the dark, over fields (would be hard enough on paved roads, but over fields(Pot holes, rocks, stumps)on a bad leg?

You could if the Lord were fortifying you. The weight of the plates would be irrelevant.

[MAsh]

the part hardest to accept is his claim of running, at night, over fields, outrunning three men, all on a bad leg. Assuming the plates were 50 pounds, that would be impossible.

I grew up in the country. I hauled 50-pound bags of feed and dog food all the time. I worked my way through college at a gravel pit and a ready-mix concrete plant. I was weight lifter (could bench 350) and ran 10ks. Back then, I was in excellent shape (wish I was now). But I gotta tell you, no way I could have, carrying a a 50-pound bag of dog food, run for three miles fast enough to outrun three men, in the dark, over fields (would be hard enough on paved roads, but over fields(Pot holes, rocks, stumps)on a bad leg?

Off topic, but....

This has been discussed previously on this board. There is no reason to believe that Lucy Mack Smith's recital of this event (which is late & 2nd hand) is a completely accurate description of the event (did I mention in my previous post that _all_ people engage, at least occasionally, in hyperbole). There is no reason to believe that Joseph Smith ran the entire distance with the plates tucked under his one arm while fighting off assailants with his other arm. I find it ironic that this is a good example of Mike Reed's list as presented in this thread. With modifications:

-----

*Insinuate an improbability of Joseph Smith being able to run with the plates by exaggerating the accuracy of Lucy's story.

*Point out that we now realize that it would have been physically impossible for Joseph to pull off his super-human feat (while conveniently neglecting to mention that historians do not believe that early 19th century documents are infallible, never exaggerate, and are 100% accurate).

*Ask the question, "How could Joseph Smith have done this?"

*Conclude, "Obviously, He couldn't have. Therefore Joseph Smith must've been lying."

Slam!! But is it really all that impressive? Should we count it as evidence invalidating Joseph Smith's prophetic calling?

-----

Mike Ash

[Vex]

the part hardest to accept is his claim of running, at night, over fields, outrunning three men, all on a bad leg. Assuming the plates were 50 pounds, that would be impossible.

I grew up in the country. I hauled 50-pound bags of feed and dog food all the time. I worked my way through college at a gravel pit and a ready-mix concrete plant. I was weight lifter (could bench 350) and ran 10ks. Back then, I was in excellent shape (wish I was now). But I gotta tell you, no way I could have, carrying a a 50-pound bag of dog food, run for three miles fast enough to outrun three men, in the dark, over fields (would be hard enough on paved roads, but over fields(Pot holes, rocks, stumps)on a bad leg?

Do you not have any adrenal glands?

[Zakuska]

I'd like to see this, if you have it.

Here you go:

Sacred Writtings on Metal Plates in the Ancient Mediterranean

[Mike Reed]

Hi Mike. Glad to see you joining the conversation.

The earliest quote of which I'm aware that belittles engraved metal plates are those made by La Roy Sunderland in 1838 (as poted on my website).

Right. This is the 1838 source I previous mentioned. Great work finding it.

Quite frankly, Mike, I both agree and disagree with you. You are correct, I believe, that Nibley may have exaggerated his claim that engraved metal plates were laughed at by Joseph Smith's contemporaries. I also suspect that other apologists simply followed Nibley's lead. That doesn't mean early contemporaries some didn't think the idea was absurd (Sunderland being one such example), but many of Joseph's contemporaries may not have had thoughts on it either way.

Agreed.

It's possible, however, that such an attitude could be inferred from the comments of many contemporaries (as recorded by Lucy Mack Smith) who made fun of Joseph's claim that he had a "gold bible." While this certainly could be understood in a treasure-digging context, it could also be understood as the disbelief that books could be written on gold.

I think the likelihood is on the side of the former.

I think this is unfair, Mike. All of us engage, at times, in hyperbole & exaggeration. It's human nature. Are you really claiming that you've never once "over-blown" anything since exiting the faith?

I know it is human nature. I am not trying to demonize anyone because of it. Just correct a seemingly bad apologetic.

You might be right, but I don't think this is done intentionally.

Probably for the most part unintentionally.

Even if, however, it wasn't a commonly held assumption in the mid nineteenth-century, it was certainly not an uncommon assumption for other critics in subsequent years.

True.

This supposed silly claim that records were recorded on gold (or metal) was repeated (and assumed) by various critics (see my article for a sample of such statements by various critics).

Right. I've read it.

Actually, both the fact that metal was written on and the male name Alam both "count" as "evidence validating Joseph Smith's prophetic calling." Are you sure you meant to say that it doesn't? Does it prove JS? Of course not. But it most certainly counts as evidence (the weight, of which, is often calculated by a variety of other factors including one's inclination to believe or disbelieve JS's supernatural claims).

It is evidence for something. But for what? Which side of the scale should the evidence be placed? The side that says the BoM is 19th century fiction, or a translation of ancient scripture? To appropriately place it on the latter, one needs to persuasively argue that there was a level of improbability that a family like Joseph Smith's wouldn

[MAsh]

In favor of his "prophetic" calling? I don't agree. I don't think it should count as evidence, unless a persuasive argument is made showing that these ideas were not available in Joseph Smith's immediate environment.

Since we pretty much agree with the rest... <g> I'll focus on this. The reason it counts as evidence, is because the plates (and Alma) do fit into the ancient BoM world and it was not known in Joseph's day that they would fit into that world. I'm not saying that it's exclusive evidence for Joseph Smith. It can also be evidence that he borrowed from his environment. The fact that it does fit the BoM, however, and I'm unaware of any evidence that Joseph's contemporaries would have accurately known that these things fit into the ancient Old World, tilts (IMHO) this evidence in favor of Joseph rather than as evidence against Joseph (when, as noted above, this evidence is combined with other evidences from within a specific paradigm).

Mike Ash

[MAsh]

I'm responding to this at work (in between other tasks) and somehow missed the following:

It is evidence for something. But for what? Which side of the scale should the evidence be placed? The side that says the BoM is 19th century fiction, or a translation of ancient scripture? To appropriately place it on the latter, one needs to persuasively argue that there was a level of improbability that a family like Joseph Smith's wouldn

[Zakuska]

It is evidence for something. But for what? Which side of the scale should the evidence be placed? The side that says the BoM is 19th century fiction, or a translation of ancient scripture? To appropriately place it on the latter, one needs to persuasively argue that there was a level of improbability that a family like Joseph Smith's wouldn

[AtticusFinch]

Do you not have any adrenal glands?

even adrenal glands would not be engaged long for a man to run three miles carrying 50 pounds and a bad leg. And the God fortifying argument is a last resort argument used when all logic defeats you. "I fell off a building 12 stories high....but, before I hit the ground, I started to fly". impossible? Nope...God fortified me.

[Zakuska]

even adrenal glands would not be engaged long for a man to run three miles carrying 50 pounds and a bad leg. And the God fortifying argument is a last resort argument used when all logic defeats you. "I fell off a building 12 stories high....but, before I hit the ground, I started to fly". impossible? Nope...God fortified me.

I seem to remember a movie when I was young depicting this scene. I never recalled Joseph Smith claiming he "sprinted" 3 miles with a 50 pound rock. But he did claim he was "hiding" from people and secreted the plates in an empty log at one point. You really think he did all that "sprinting" all the way? Surely he stopped and caught his breath while hidding etc.

[kolipoki09]

I seem to remember a movie when I was young depicting this scene. I never recalled Joseph Smith claiming he "sprinted" 3 miles with a 50 pound rock. But he did claim he was "hiding" from people and secreted the plates in an empty log at one point. You really think he did all that "sprinting" all the way? Surely he stopped and caught his breath while hidding etc.

Several years ago as a fifteen year old, our ward had a guest speaker at a summer father-son outing high in the Lost River mountains of Idaho. This man was a member of our stake high council and also served as Principal of the local LDS Seminary. He brought up the objection that several have raised, regarding Joseph's ability to run 3 miles carrying the plates. His primary argument in support of Joseph's story was that he was in fact able to flee and hide from his opponents in a chase that covered about three miles through various patches of vegetation, etc. He then presented a 50 lb. cement block "replica" of the plates which were placed in a burlap potato sack (quintessentially Idahoan). He then handed the sack to a ward member who took off running with it draped over his shoulder. The younger boys were delighted at the chance of chasing him down, and chase him they did, unsuccessfully to our surprise. Then again, I estimate he ran no further than a few hundred yards before they called everyone back. As far as our speaker was concerned, his point had been made....it was time to eat s'mores.

So, when evaluating this story, I think Zakuska makes up a good point. Did Joseph himself claim that he "sprinted" three miles while carrying the plates, or did he also include stories of hiding and stopping as brought up by Zakuska. Did he have a sack to carry the plates? I think the sack would significantly improve his odds, perhaps even as a defensive mechanism, something also featured in what may only be 'folk tale' accounts of HOW he was able to flee his pursuers.

[Zakuska]

So, when evaluating this story, I think Zakuska makes up a good point. Did Joseph himself claim that he "sprinted" three miles while carrying the plates, or did he also include stories of hiding and stopping as brought up by Zakuska. Did he have a sack to carry the plates? I think the sack would significantly improve his odds, perhaps even as a defensive mechanism, something also featured in what may only be 'folk tale' accounts of HOW he was able to flee his pursuers.

Harrison Ford "ran" for much more than three miles, in the 1993 Hit Movie - The Fugitive.

[Mike Reed]

Good Lord. Is it just me or did the goal post just up and run away again?

Since the goal post remains where its always been, it must just be you.

The question must be asked, If it were such common knowledge as you pretend how in the world did La ROy Sunderland, Rev. Lamb and at least 3 others since that time miss it? These men ridiculing Joseph Smith after all were men of the cloth and who pretended to know the Bile much better than he did.

I never claimed this knowledge was universal. Nor did I assert that such knowledge was obtained through the study of the Bible and theology.

[Vex]

even adrenal glands would not be engaged long for a man to run three miles carrying 50 pounds and a bad leg. And the God fortifying argument is a last resort argument used when all logic defeats you. "I fell off a building 12 stories high....but, before I hit the ground, I started to fly". impossible? Nope...God fortified me.

Threat of life and limb can do some crazy things:

In 2006 in Tucson, Ariz., Tim Boyle watched as a Chevrolet Camaro hit 18-year-old Kyle Holtrust. The car pinned Holtrust, still alive, underneath. Boyle ran to the scene of the accident and lifted the Camaro off the teenager, while the driver of the car pulled him to safety.

In 1982, in Lawrenceville, Ga., Angela Cavallo lifted a 1964 Chevrolet Impala from her son, Tony, after it fell off the jacks that had held it up while he worked underneath the car. Mrs. Cavallo lifted the car high enough and long enough for two neighbors to replace the jacks and pull Tony from beneath the car.

Marie "Bootsy" Payton was cutting her lawn in High Island, Texas, when her riding mower got away from her. Payton's young granddaughter, Evie, tried to stop the mower, but was knocked underneath the still-running machine. Payton reached the mower and easily tossed it off her granddaughter, limiting Evie's injuries to four severed toes. Curious, Payton later tried to lift the mower again and found she couldn't move it.

http://health.howstuffworks.com/human-body/bodily-feats/adrenaline-strength.htm

Some more stories:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/archive/index.php/t-722238.html

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=86471

[Bernard Gui]

Some critics say Joseph made the plates from common tin, since he and his father

may have had some tinsmithing experience. Dan Vogle, I think believes this.

Then he hid the tin plates under a cloth and let people feel them through the

cloth, etc., etc.

Tin sheets were available at the time, but it is difficult to engrave. It's not easy

to find pure tin plates now, but I have worked with it, and it does not fit

the descriptions of the plates Joseph had.

Bernard

[Mike Reed]

it was not known in Joseph's day that [the metalic plates] would fit into that world.... I'm unaware of any evidence that Joseph's contemporaries would have accurately known that these things fit into the ancient Old World, tilts (IMHO) this evidence in favor of Joseph rather than as evidence against Joseph (when, as noted above, this evidence is combined with other evidences from within a specific paradigm).

As I see it... Negative arguments become especially problematic when one does not bother searching for the evidence. Would you say that you have put forth a reasonable amount of effort searching contemporary sources, Mike?

[Zakuska]

Threat of life and limb can do some crazy things:

http://health.howstu...ne-strength.htm

Some more stories:

http://forum.bodybui...p/t-722238.html

http://www.physicsfo...ead.php?t=86471

And who can ever forget about "Tiny Amarel" the Hawaiian who lifted Magnium PIs helicopter off the Pilot after it crashed.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=IYTX57PmaY8

[Calm]

Or for those who believe in the Bible...

Samson.

[why me]

even adrenal glands would not be engaged long for a man to run three miles carrying 50 pounds and a bad leg. And the God fortifying argument is a last resort argument used when all logic defeats you. "I fell off a building 12 stories high....but, before I hit the ground, I started to fly". impossible? Nope...God fortified me.

The only problem here is that Joseph Smith was known to enjoy wrestling and he was pretty good at it. He was also known to be quite fit. Also, he worked on the farm pretty well. In other words, he was not too long suffering with a gimp leg. He was out and about doing frontier things.

[krose]

I'm not really current on the recent archaeological status of ancient records on metal, so I have to ask:

How much evidence is there for the ancients engraving on metal plates (gold or brass in particular) as a significant method of recording history? How prevalent does archaeology show the practice to have been in the Middle East, both circa 600 BCE and 2200 BCE?

Are there examples, in the relevant region and time, of full-length books engraved on metal plates as a means of long-term preservation?

I do know that in Smith's view of the ancient Israelites, it seems to have been their preferred method of record keeping. In addition to the "smaller" plates he said he received, he also mentioned the much larger set of plates maintained by the Nephites throughout their history, as well as Laban's brass plates and the "pure gold" plates of the Jaredites.

[Vex]

I'm not really current on the recent archaeological status of ancient records on metal, so I have to ask:

How much evidence is there for the ancients engraving on metal plates (gold or brass in particular) as a significant method of recording history? How prevalent does archaeology show the practice to have been in the Middle East, both circa 600 BCE and 2200 BCE?

Are there examples, in the relevant region and time, of full-length books engraved on metal plates as a means of long-term preservation?

Good question. I know there are quite a lot of examples ancient writing on metal plates. The length and purpose of them I am fairly certain vary.

I do know that in Smith's view of the ancient Israelites, it seems to have been their preferred method of record keeping. In addition to the "smaller" plates he said he received, he also mentioned the much larger set of plates maintained by the Nephites throughout their history, as well as Laban's brass plates and the "pure gold" plates of the Jaredites.

False argument. Never in the Book of Mormon or any other record that I'm aware of does Joseph insinuate that the Brass plates or any other plates were main source of record keeping among the Israelites. Among the Nephites it could be argued, as well as the Jaredites, but there again, there is no record dictating that the plates are the only record ever kept.

[USU78]

even adrenal glands would not be engaged long for a man to run three miles carrying 50 pounds and a bad leg. And the God fortifying argument is a last resort argument used when all logic defeats you. "I fell off a building 12 stories high....but, before I hit the ground, I started to fly". impossible? Nope...God fortified me.

City boys. Sheesh.

Farm folks regularly carried and carry heavy loads long distances. Take a gander here at what the test is for women porters. 25 kg = 55 lbs, btw: http://musenmotivation.wordpress.com/2010/04/09/women-porters-in-bhavnagar/