Metal Plates--Joseph Smith Mocked for His Discription

[urroner]

the part hardest to accept is his claim of running, at night, over fields, outrunning three men, all on a bad leg. Assuming the plates were 50 pounds, that would be impossible.

I grew up in the country. I hauled 50-pound bags of feed and dog food all the time. I worked my way through college at a gravel pit and a ready-mix concrete plant. I was weight lifter (could bench 350) and ran 10ks. Back then, I was in excellent shape (wish I was now). But I gotta tell you, no way I could have, carrying a a 50-pound bag of dog food, run for three miles fast enough to outrun three men, in the dark, over fields (would be hard enough on paved roads, but over fields(Pot holes, rocks, stumps)on a bad leg?

Was he doing a sprint, was it a run a little bit and hide, what is the scenario you are proposing? It seems to me that you are stating that Joseph Smith claimed to sprint the three miles without stopping. Do you have a reference where he claimed to do that?

[Vex]

City boys. Sheesh.

Farm folks regularly carried and carry heavy loads long distances. Take a gander here at what the test is for women porters. 25 kg = 55 lbs, btw: http://musenmotivation.wordpress.com/2010/04/09/women-porters-in-bhavnagar/

Indeed (from the previously referenced article in my post)

Adrenaline doesn't just help people lift cars. In Ivujivik, Quebec, in 2006, Lydia Angyiou wrestled a large polar bear that she saw advancing toward her son and another boy while they played hockey. Angyiou tackled the polar bear and fought it while the boys ran for help. While Angyiou suffered some wounds, the polar bear ultimately lost the fight. Angyiou sparred with it long enough that a neighbor was able to shoot the bear four times until it died

[MAsh]

As I see it... Negative arguments become especially problematic when one does not bother searching for the evidence. Would you say that you have put forth a reasonable amount of effort searching contemporary sources, Mike?

Please keep in mind that I didn't say there was no evidence that Joseph's contemporaries knew that people during BoM times/locations wrote on metal plates, I said I was unaware of any evidence. I'm certainly willing to see such evidence. Have I spent much effort searching contemporary sources? Not much, but a bit. Like I said earlier, I'd be interesting in seeing what you dig up. I'm sincere about that. If you find a fair amount of evidence that the Smith family believed that ancient Israelites during BoM times wrote on metal plates I wouldn't hesitate to acknowledge that this would weaken the evidentary value for Joseph's prophetic abilities on this particular issue. It wouldn't change my overall view but it would certainly reduce the effectiveness of this one argument.

[krose]

False argument. Never in the Book of Mormon or any other record that I'm aware of does Joseph insinuate that the Brass plates or any other plates were main source of record keeping among the Israelites. Among the Nephites it could be argued, as well as the Jaredites, but there again, there is no record dictating that the plates are the only record ever kept.

Well, according to the BoM, the practice of writing lengthy scripture on metal plates was not only practiced in Israel around 600 BCE, but also by emigrants from the region 2000 years before that. It appears to me it's the 'go-to' method of record preservation for the book's author(s).

But my main question is, have metal scriptures resembling the "plates of brass" taken from Laban been found in Israel (are the two single "plates of Darius" the closest)?

Are we to assume that Laban's was the only 'hard copy' of Hebrew scripture that existed at the time? Or do we assume that other books of scripture written on metal plates have been lost or not yet found?

[why me]

City boys. Sheesh.

Farm folks regularly carried and carry heavy loads long distances. Take a gander here at what the test is for women porters. 25 kg = 55 lbs, btw: http://musenmotivation.wordpress.com/2010/04/09/women-porters-in-bhavnagar/

Critics seem to overplay the leg operation that Joseph had when a child when they think that they can score points. And they overlook the frontier man and his activities. No where in Bushman to my recollection is Joseph portrayed as weak and feeble as a man. Rather just the opposite.

[krose]

I am a bit surprised that no one has provided a list of all the examples of ancient writing on metal plates. Surely it has been compiled somewhere?

[Dr.JD]

Well, according to the BoM, the practice of writing lengthy scripture on metal plates was not only practiced in Israel around 600 BCE, but also by emigrants from the region 2000 years before that. It appears to me it's the 'go-to' method of record preservation for the book's author(s).

But my main question is, have metal scriptures resembling the "plates of brass" taken from Laban been found in Israel (are the two single "plates of Darius" the closest)?

Are we to assume that Laban's was the only 'hard copy' of Hebrew scripture that existed at the time? Or do we assume that other books of scripture written on metal plates have been lost or not yet found?

To be honest I think that Plates like the Brass Plates were rare. If they were not rare than why would Nephi and his brothers give up all their earthly wealth to obtain them. If it was easy to obtain such a record elsewhere I am sure they would have done it. As to metal records being common among the Nephites and Jaredites. The men that made these records were prophets and they understood that such records would need to last for thousands of years, thus the Lord had them written on metal instead of paper.

Excuse the grammar it is late and I am typing this on my phone.

[Vex]

Well, according to the BoM, the practice of writing lengthy scripture on metal plates was not only practiced in Israel around 600 BCE, but also by emigrants from the region 2000 years before that. It appears to me it's the 'go-to' method of record preservation for the book's author(s).

You assume it was common practice.

But my main question is, have metal scriptures resembling the "plates of brass" taken from Laban been found in Israel (are the two single "plates of Darius" the closest)?

Are we to assume that Laban's was the only 'hard copy' of Hebrew scripture that existed at the time? Or do we assume that other books of scripture written on metal plates have been lost or not yet found?

http://www.shields-research.org/Scriptures/BoM/GPUA.htm

The most recent such discovery was in the Dead Sea Scrolls, part of which consisted of two copper scrolls rolled up together. The text was inscribed so deeply upon them that it stood out in relief on the back.

One of the most important and interesting of all the discoveries of ancient metal records was that of the plates of Emperor Darius I of Persia (518 B.C.) which were found sealed in a box of stone and bearing a text in three languages. The plates were of gold and silver.

Sargon, King of Assyria (722 B.C.) repeats over and over in his "Annals" that he kept his records on plates of gold, silver, bronze, and lead.

Such plates have been found in many parts of the world, including America and the Orient. Detailed information on them may be found in such books as Book of Mormon Message and Evidences, by Dr. Franklin S. Harris, Jr.; The Instructor for October, 1957, (published in Salt Lake City) and Dr. Hugh Nibley's book, An Approach to the Book of Mormon.

I'm going to preemptively apologize for the copy/paste job, but it seems to validate the point quiet poignantly.

[Vex]

I am a bit surprised that no one has provided a list of all the examples of ancient writing on metal plates. Surely it has been compiled somewhere?

Is that what you wanted krose? Or were you hoping for something else?

edit: (Entry number 57 appears quite interesting...)

[Vex]

Anybody? Or should I just let this thread fade?

[Zakuska]

I think that answers Krose's question Vex.

We will have to keep this page handy for the next time this inane critique makes the rounds again.

[krose]

Is that what you wanted krose? Or were you hoping for something else?

edit: (Entry number 57 appears quite interesting...)

Sorry, just noticed that this thread had jumped back to the front page. I don't monitor the site that often.

Anyway, yes, that is what I wanted to see (including post 57, which I missed before). I knew it had to be somewhere and that someone here would have it handy. Thanks.

I just wish those lists from shields were easier to read. So small.

[Zakuska]

57 is quite intresting because-

1) It dates to ~600 BC

2) they are religious texts

3) it corresponds roughly with the geographical location of Nahom.

[krose]

I think that answers Krose's question Vex.

Yes, it did, thanks.

We will have to keep this page handy for the next time this inane critique makes the rounds again.

Which inane critique? Mike Reed started the thread to get evidence of Nibley's claim that criticism of writing on plates was the main objection when the book came out.

For my own part, my suspicion/gut feeling for a long time has been that the physical evidence of plate writing probably does not support the prevalence of writing on plates indicated by the text of the BoM. But I can't say that with any confidence because I haven't paid a lot of attention to what has actually been uncovered, which is why I requested the information. If evidence of full-length engraved books from the appropriate period has been found in the area, that would definitely count as a hit for the legitimacy of the plates story.

[Zakuska]

55 and 56 are also intresting. Hebrews writing on metal.

[Zakuska]

Judean silver scrolls containing portions of the Old Testament .

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=3&num=1&id=56

[All-Seeing Eye]

Several years ago as a fifteen year old, our ward had a guest speaker at a summer father-son outing high in the Lost River mountains of Idaho.

Your ward was a fifteen-year-old?

[Vex]

Yes, it did, thanks.

Which inane critique? Mike Reed started the thread to get evidence of Nibley's claim that criticism of writing on plates was the main objection when the book came out.

I don't believe it was an inane critique per-se, but that this has come up before and individuals use it as a means to tout the BoM as illegitimate.

For my own part, my suspicion/gut feeling for a long time has been that the physical evidence of plate writing probably does not support the prevalence of writing on plates indicated by the text of the BoM. But I can't say that with any confidence because I haven't paid a lot of attention to what has actually been uncovered, which is why I requested the information. If evidence of full-length engraved books from the appropriate period has been found in the area, that would definitely count as a hit for the legitimacy of the plates story.

That's good to hear. It's honestly refreshing to read about individuals able to overcome their own gut feelings and see evidence for what it is (evidence, nothing more, nothing less).