LDS Doctrine

[why me]

I post on CAF and have had several Catholics send me PMs, to apologize for the blatant Mormon bashing.

There are just a few 'bad apples' there that will use any dirty trick or debate tactic to poison the thread.

Since they are the 'one true church' they feel the ends justifies the means.

You are more than welcome to post on this forum. You are a new member to the lds church and it is much better to clarify issues here espcially on the social forum. Welcome to this forum Todd.

[Storm Rider]

I post on CAF and have had several Catholics send me PMs, to apologize for the blatant Mormon bashing.

There are just a few 'bad apples' there that will use any dirty trick or debate tactic to poison the thread.

Since they are the 'one true church' they feel the ends justifies the means.

I had the same experience there; the ones who PM'd me were gracious individuals. But, dang the same few were so rank I felt like I often had to take a shower just dealing with them. There was no effort to share differing concepts or a way of understanding one another. The moment that anything remotely similar to a collegial discussion the same old group would enter and spout lies, misquotes, or change the topic to the rather staid, pitiful anti-Mormon rants we have all heard for years. For example, in the forum similarities between Catholicism and Mormonism (

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=483507) . If you review the considerable number of comments you will read a plethora of statements stating there are absolutely NO similarities between Catholicism and Mormonism, zero, none, zilch, zippo, nada. The one simple statement that was never mentioned is summarized by Joseph,

[todd520]

Storm

As an ex-catholic I expected big differences during my investigation. Time and time again i came to the conclusion that the core beliefs are consistent but there are differences in execution.

These questioners have already concluded (or been informed) that we are very different and so use any spec of data to support their claim.

The Roman Catholic Church has not helped by their assertation LDS is not a Christian. faith.

[Thinking]

Perhaps the more significant question is: why are you putting out quotes "by a church leader" that are of a nature that needs to be "countered?"

Ah yes, answering a question with a question. I can play too.

Even more significant: Why is a church leader saying things that are of a nature that they need to be "countered?"

[Thinking]

It has released such a list, yes.

I found the list on the Church's official website. However, the Church's official website is not on the list.

This doctrine resides in the four

[MichaelM]

I found the list on the Church's official website. However, the Church's official website is not on the list.

The website page states:

"The Official Resource for News Media, Opinion Leaders, and the Public"

It is an official definition of doctrine to the public.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

"But you NEED a little god you can understand. You NEED a god that was once a sinful man. You NEED a god that is one of many gods. You NEED a Jesus who is weak, cruel, and dishonest." AtticusFinch

Hmmm, well that certainly is a good Christian way of going about things.

Tell us, why Jesus is weak, cruel, and dishonest? That certainly does not sound like LDS theology.

any similarities are merely coincidental.

Catholics believe in the God of the Bible. Mormons believe in an odd little god who was once a sinful man.

Catholics follow Christ. Mormons follow false prophets.

Catholics follow the Bible and Sacred Tradition. Mormons follow a fictional book that has no basis in history, anthropology, geography, archeology, or any science.

Catholics have a God that is unchanging and all-powerful. Mormons have a little god who changes his mind whenever money and/or property is at stake (ie. polygamy and black holding the priesthood/racism).

Catholics beleive heaven is a free gift from God, Mormons have to pay their way to heaven (thru forced tithing).

Catholics believe in God's Mercy, Mormons, until recently, believed you could spill blood to save others (blood oath).

Catholics believe Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. Mormons believe Jesus and Satan were brothers.

Catholics believe Mary is forever Virgin, Mormons believe that God had actual physical sex with Mary.

Catholics believe that Jesus is also God, powerful honest, and merciful, Moormons believe that Jesus was weak, dishonest and cruel (for that is the ONLY way there could have been a total Apostasy).

Catholics can visit cities and places in the Bible, Mormons can't agree on where the BM took place, much less visit any of sites.

Catholics believe that a calling to serve God is special and personal and can last a lifetime, Mormons don;t wait for God to call, they expect their youths to go at 19 and only spend 2 years as a break between two years of college.

And those are just some of the differences.

Way to mis-represent LDS theology.

I am quite honestly offended at your last comment about missionary service. You call that a "break", I have not seen such a foolish comment in some time as yours. Clearly you are ignorant of what it means to be a missionary for the LDS church.

One thing I have noticed, that like the LDS there are many fine catholics I have had the pleasure of meeting, they have treated me very nicely. I can only assume that your behavior is an anomaly with in catholisism.

[mfbukowski]

So do I. Given that nobody has ever apologised to me on behalf of Catholics for your utterly vile hate-mongering, the fact that someone thought they should apologise for me giving back less than I was getting tells us something about our respective faiths, doesn't it?

Pahoran

I totally agree. CAF is a pit, far worse than the trailer park and in some ways CARM. There is not even an attempt at dialogue- I never post there anymore and keep getting emails asking me to do so.

[mfbukowski]

As to your compliment....thank you...I think....unless you hate pancakes

I love eating them for breakfast. Same with critics.

[mfbukowski]

I hope that the moderators here understand that the antimormonism on the catholic forum is rather blantant and rude. And yet it is only a small minority of antimormon catholics that open mormon threads to bash mormonism and mormons. The mormons who do venture over there to defend their faith against such threads must have a tough skin to survive the bashing and mocking. One tactic by some is to suddenly lash into personal attacks which is not allowed on this forum. Please don't be surprised if the same tactic is used here by a certain antimormon catholic in order to get this thread closed. Much better to allow the exchange to continue and just delete any personal attacks.

If I were against the catholic church, I would have just allowed the more antimormon threads over there to continue without defending the mormons and mormonism since these mormon threads on CAF show catholicism in a bad light. But on the other hand since these threads on CAF are so blatant in their antimormonism, much more so than on rabid antimormon sites, they are difficult to ignore. My hope would be that the more sincere catholics who understand tolerance would bring the mockers and bashers to task...but...

You are far too nice. But I suppose one should not tire of turning the other cheek. One can only give so much blood though without dying oneself.

[mfbukowski]

Further, the Apostles' Creed we can support almost in its entirety:

9. the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints,

There is but a single phrase that a LDS would not repeat; yet all others we believe and we teach.

Actually, it originally said "holy universal church" and are we as saints not in "communion"?

I have no problem with any of it, if we apply it to us- we are the universal church of united saints.

[mfbukowski]

How do these people deny our similarity of faith in Jesus Christ? How is he made so worthless as to discount entirely? Atticus (SirThomasMore), your edit was particularly odious (http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=483507&page=7) because you state you know LDS beliefs having been one yourself and yet you dismiss Jesus entirely. These are the types of lies that the Tanners didn't even perpetuate.

I am so glad you posted this link, and I want to draw more attention to it.

Warning: Do not click on it unless you are ok with vile lies about our church.

This just shows what kind of person our "Mr. Innocent", atticus finch really is. If I were a moderator I would ban him here for what he says on other boards.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I am so glad you posted this link, and I want to draw more attention to it.

Warning: Do not click on it unless you are ok with vile lies about our church.

This just shows what kind of person our "Mr. Innocent", atticus finch really is. If I were a moderator I would ban him here for what he says on other boards.

For some one that claims to have been LDS he sure has a poor understanding of things LDS.

[mfbukowski]

For some one that claims to have been LDS he sure has a poor understanding of things LDS.

No understanding whatsoever, and if his family and friends are actually reading this as he says, they had better understand that he has no understanding and is totally misrepresenting our beliefs.

I have an idea.

We should have a way to respond to this stuff without going on that vile board, like the parallel threads we have with the TP people (I meant trailer park)-- just as we are here.

It would give both boards more hits as members of each lurk on the other board, and if any actually want to dialogue, they could do so in a more peaceful environment here.

Maybe those who still post there could start their own thread here as well as there so that their answers would actually be read and modified by other members here.

Just an idea. It could be a way to get the truth out without contending with the junk that gets tossed there.

Dianiad puts up with it incredibly- I could not take it. But they are clearly not into dialogue- they (Catholics) are worried about losing more members and it is in CAF's interest to allow the bashing to go on.

The more we look like a crazy cult over there, the fewer members will join our church- or at least that is what they believe.

But it would be interesting to try.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

My friends and family know I participate on debate boards. One LDS friend, who lives in Utah, saw your posts and apologized on behalf of Mormons. Love it.

I offer a challange to show your LDS friends the crap you wrote. I am sure they will still feel heart warmed towards you after that and still offer their apologies.

[Storm Rider]

Storm

As an ex-catholic I expected big differences during my investigation. Time and time again i came to the conclusion that the core beliefs are consistent but there are differences in execution.

These questioners have already concluded (or been informed) that we are very different and so use any spec of data to support their claim.

The Roman Catholic Church has not helped by their assertation LDS is not a Christian. faith.

Todd, of all the Christian churches in the world I find the most similarity of beliefs within the Catholic Church. I have a profound appreciation for so many of the Saints, their humility, righteousness, wisdom, love, and holiness. There is much that we as LDS may learn from their examples of true Christianity. Yes, there are many core beliefs that are similar. For that reason I am grateful for those who find a home within Catholicism; they will be fed spiritually and grow in the light of Christ. We all gravitate to the level of truth that we are capable of living.

[Pahoran]

I totally agree. CAF is a pit, far worse than the trailer park and in some ways CARM. There is not even an attempt at dialogue- I never post there anymore and keep getting emails asking me to do so.

Hi MF,

I don't know what your history at CAF is like. But I have to take issue with you. If I were to judge it by a small and vocal bunch of Mormon-haters, led by AtticusFinch, I'd think it was a pit too; but the fact is that there are plenty of good and decent posters there.

Also, I don't think the mods are really all that bad. Admittedly they referee Finchy much the same way Gert Bezuidenhout used to referee Moaner Van Heerden, but there's always a degree of home court advantage on any forum, even this one.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Pahoran]

What happened to AtticusFinch? Did the going get too tough for him?

Regards,

Pahoran

[why me]

Hi MF,

I don't know what your history at CAF is like. But I have to take issue with you. If I were to judge it by a small and vocal bunch of Mormon-haters, led by AtticusFinch, I'd think it was a pit too; but the fact is that there are plenty of good and decent posters there.

Also, I don't think the mods are really all that bad. Admittedly they referee Finchy much the same way Gert Bezuidenhout used to referee Moaner Van Heerden, but there's always a degree of home court advantage on any forum, even this one.

Regards,

Pahoran

This is true. But not many decent posters actually post on the mormon threads but I am sure that they are reading the threads. My issue is that the mormon haters show catholicsim to be intolerant and bigoted. Fortunately the average catholic is not this way toward mormonism or any other faith. Catholics tend to be respectful and tolerant of other faiths but yes, most who understand their doctrine would not consider the mormon church christian because the vatican says so. But they would not hate the lds church or its members.

[why me]

What happened to AtticusFinch? Did the going get too tough for him?

Regards,

Pahoran

I think so. I can only hope that catholics can come here and ask their questions not for conversion but for clarifying the antisentiments of the vocal minority on the mormon threads on CAF.

[why me]

You are far too nice. But I suppose one should not tire of turning the other cheek. One can only give so much blood though without dying oneself.

I try to see the person behind the posts. This helps. But I have wished that the moderators would have taken the mormon haters to task more than they did. When I was banned I thought: my gosh why ban me when there are such haters on the mormon threads saying such uncharitable things about the lds church in such an unchristlike way.

But...then I thought that the mormonhaters actually are favored by the moderator team to a certain extent. And if true, it is sad for catholicism on CAF. I have known of no priest that has spoken hatefully toward other faiths as certain posters on caf do. Most would only say that we all need to pray for mormons etc and say it in a kind and respectful way.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

What happened to AtticusFinch? Did the going get too tough for him?

Regards,

Pahoran

Once I saw for my self and called him on the carpet for the crap he wrote, it appears he split faster than a banana.

I have a really hard time believing his story about showing his LDS friends the thread and that they apologised for your behavior.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

This is true. But not many decent posters actually post on the mormon threads but I am sure that they are reading the threads. My issue is that the mormon haters show catholicsim to be intolerant and bigoted.

Of the majority of Catholics that I have dialogued with or personally met, they were very respectful. I have enjoyed the dialogue and mutual respect. Some of the greatest people I met on my mission were Catholic, in Lynchburg VA of all places too. I think that Atticus is but an anomoly to the norm. You know the saying, there are always a few bad apples in every bunch.

[mfbukowski]

Hi MF,

I don't know what your history at CAF is like. But I have to take issue with you. If I were to judge it by a small and vocal bunch of Mormon-haters, led by AtticusFinch, I'd think it was a pit too; but the fact is that there are plenty of good and decent posters there.

Also, I don't think the mods are really all that bad. Admittedly they referee Finchy much the same way Gert Bezuidenhout used to referee Moaner Van Heerden, but there's always a degree of home court advantage on any forum, even this one.

Regards,

Pahoran

An interesting point of view, but we definitely disagree.

Unquestionably there are a few- less than 5- who are reasonable the leader of whom is Soren who also posts here fairly regularly. Soren is a gem imo, but the others believe what CAF tells them about us.

Page down a little and read the section on Mormons. http://www.catholic.com/library/noncatholic_groups.asp

Can you imagine a site like this one summarizing the faiths of others?

Needless to say, what they are taught about us are distorted caricatures.

Pahoran, I will be interested to see if your opinion changes after you have been there awhile.

You will see questions from the "Mormon Stumpers" section regularly.

[mfbukowski]

I love this one:

In 1844, shortly before his death in a gunbattle at a jail in Carthage, Illinois, Joseph Smith delivered a sermon at the funeral of a Mormon named King Follett.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Gods_of_the_Mormon_Church.asp

There are many there who believe that Joseph "died in a gun battle while escaping from jail".

That sort of thing is typical.