Will Schryver's Book of Abraham talk

[USU78]

He's a single parent working 80+ hours/week for Microsoft to support his family. The church employs hundreds of full time professors with free access to the originals. Where are all the church publications on the KEP?

So . . . you're saying he's not up to his antiMopologetic hobby?

So . . . you're saying that his kids are more important to him than antiMopologetics?

I applaud his decision to abandon the field.

Except he didn't abandon the field.

He keeps threatening to publish that magnum opus.

[Mortal Man]

This thread is basically a preview of the future. After Will's presentation, the discussion and debate will be heated. Lets hope that Will does a good job and presents his case very well.

I'm with you why me. And I must say, I haven't been this excited for an upcoming event since waiting in a mega-long line to see Star Wars at the old Centre theater on State Street.

This whole thing reminds me of Elijah and the priests of Baal. During yesterday's Gospel Doctrine lesson, I couldn't help but picture William up there, calling down fire on all the broken theories of the past. Also, Elijah's subsequent charity and magnanimity towards his priest-critics reminded me a lot of Will.

[ttribe]

I'm with you why me. And I must say, I haven't been this excited for an upcoming event since waiting in a mega-long line to see Star Wars at the old Centre theater on State Street.

This whole thing reminds me of Elijah and the priests of Baal. During yesterday's Gospel Doctrine lesson, I couldn't help but picture William up there, calling down fire on all the broken theories of the past. Also, Elijah's subsequent charity and magnanimity towards his priest-critics reminded me a lot of Will.

And you wonder why people get frustrated with you?

[William Schryver]

Part of the reason is because he has deliberately it some fires in online conversations. In my opinion, at times his tone and statements have been inappropriate. Unfortunately, these things can impact perceptions of his work, even though such things are irrelevant to his actual conclusions.

There, fixed it for you.

I understand your feelings when it comes to such things. However, your sentiments and judgments are most assuredly not universal. I do not begrudge you your opinions at all when it comes to these things, but I absolutely know that they are not shared by everyone. In fact, your judgment of my "tone" and allegedly "inappropriate statements" is, from what I have been able to ascertain, a minority opinion.

[LifeOnaPlate]

There, fixed it for you.

I understand your feelings when it comes to such things. However, your sentiments and judgments are most assuredly not universal. I do not begrudge you your opinions at all when it comes to these things, but I absolutely know that they are not shared by everyone. In fact, your judgment of my "tone" and allegedly "inappropriate statements" is, from what I have been able to ascertain, a minority opinion.

It's hardly debatable that you've written some inappropriate things over at the Shades board. To the extent that such things detract from your actual work it's unfortunate. To disregard your research in favor of personal offenses (or non-personal offenses) misses the point entirely. It's an easy way to dismiss your work without engaging it.

[Mortal Man]

There, fixed it for you.

I understand your feelings when it comes to such things. However, your sentiments and judgments are most assuredly not universal. I do not begrudge you your opinions at all when it comes to these things, but I absolutely know that they are not shared by everyone. In fact, your judgment of my "tone" and allegedly "inappropriate statements" is, from what I have been able to ascertain, a minority opinion.

Hear, hear. I'm glad to see, Will, that you're finally beginning to speak up for yourself. That assertiveness training has clearly done you some good.

[juliann]

This thread is basically a preview of the future. After Will's presentation, the discussion and debate will be heated. Lets hope that Will does a good job and presents his case very well.

I have heard every conference talk ever given and his presentation rates at the top in style as well as content. So no worries there. I don't pay a whole lot of attention to things that don't interest me much and I hopscotch through threads if they bore me because it's easier to say oops than wade through all the noise around here. So I've never understood what the KEP is let alone what it all means. Now I get it. Which means I can talk about it now without blundering too badly.

That actually may be the greatest value of this presentation. Regardless of conclusions, lot more people are going to understand the conversation. That can't be comfortable for the contramopologists who are used to controlling the conversation without having to produce anything.

[SilverKnight]

Here here. I'm glad to see, Will, that you're finally beginning to speak up for yourself. That assertiveness training has clearly done you some good.

Here we go again.

*groan*

[ttribe]

Here we go again.

*groan*

I'm with you.

[frankenstein]

Why is it that the bare mention of the name Will Schryver and the Book of Abraham enough to raise the hackles of usually even-tempered critics and provoke angry pre-emptive strikes from both sides?

I am mystified.

i initially had reservations about the presentation. Why? Because Will's comes across very much "holier than thou" in many of his posts. I think in his "I am leaving post" he stated something to the affect of lack of appreciation for his comments here is why he was leaving.

humans are very silly being, it is very easy to distract a human with a non-relevant criticism.

[juliann]

It's hardly debatable that you've written some inappropriate things over at the Shades board. To the extent that such things detract from your actual work it's unfortunate. To disregard your research in favor of personal offenses (or non-personal offenses) misses the point entirely. It's an easy way to dismiss your work without engaging it.

So he offended the twelve people on an obscene foul-mouthed message board who would dismiss whatever any Mormon produced even if they were second in line to Jesus. Who cares what they accept or dismiss? When has that place ever mattered to scholarship? I have never, ever heard it referred to in an academic setting let alone anything that goes on over there. Message boards are not the audience for this or anything else LDS scholars do. This board doesn't even matter. And I can guarantee you that when anyone starts nannying other people's behavior they end up on the bottom regardless of the merits of their position.

[ttribe]

And I can guarantee you that when anyone starts nannying other people's behavior they end up on the bottom regardless of the merits of their position.

Oh geez, more "Internet Etiquette > Personal Ethics" argument.

[juliann]

Oh geez, more Internet Etiquette > Personal Ethics argument.

It doesn't have anything to do with greater or lesser. As I said, regardless of merit. The fact is that we have to set ourselves on a pedestal in order to direct others and it rarely turns out well on impersonal message boards. It only starts arguments and often both sides eventually end up resenting the nanny.

[ttribe]

It doesn't have anything to do with greater or lesser. As I said, regardless of merit. The fact is that we have to set ourselves on a pedestal in order to direct others and it rarely turns out well on impersonal message boards. It only starts arguments and often both sides eventually end up resenting the nanny.

And sometimes, despite the intransigence of the recipient, some things just need to be said.

[LifeOnaPlate]

So he offended the twelve people on an obscene foul-mouthed message board who would dismiss whatever any Mormon produced even if they were second in line to Jesus.

Well, many would dismiss Jesus himself, as well.

Who cares what they accept or dismiss? When has that place ever mattered to scholarship? I have never, ever heard it referred to in an academic setting let alone anything that goes on over there. Message boards are not the audience for this or anything else LDS scholars do. This board doesn't even matter. And I can guarantee you that when anyone starts nannying other people's behavior they end up on the bottom regardless of the merits of their position.

The harpers aren't the audience I'm concerned about. Other onlookers are the ones who may be distracted from the real substance, it's the lurkers who will be put off should they be made aware of things. And knowing certain folks at the shades board they'll make sure to drudge up whatever negative things they can to try and discredit Will. They've done the same thing to DCP, they've done the same thing to me. It doesn't make it right, it doesn't overcome the logic or coherence of the argument. But I think all of us can look back at things we've written on message boards and think better of it now.

And I can guarantee you that when anyone starts nannying other people's behavior they end up on the bottom regardless of the merits of their position.

If that's the case, what's to be said of the nannies who nanny the other nannies? For real, though, I'm not criticizing Will. I'm pointing out the fact that he's brought some unnecessary criticism on himself, and that the merits of his presentation should not be judged on that basis, but by their own quality and coherence. Dismissing his work based on online bantering is a cheap and easy way to get out of thinking through the issue responsibly. But it happens, unfortunately.

[mfbukowski]

This thread is basically a preview of the future. After Will's presentation, the discussion and debate will be heated. Lets hope that Will does a good job and presents his case very well.

Will

You know we love you, but you are often your worst enemy. After the presentation, shut up and let them answer you peer-to-peer in publications.

Stay away from the boards- they cannot help your cause- you know you get carried away!

[ttribe]

Will

You know we love you, but you are often your worst enemy. After the presentation, shut up and let them answer you peer-to-peer in publications.

Stay away from the boards- they cannot help your cause- you know you get carried away!

Sage advice.

[LifeOnaPlate]

It doesn't have anything to do with greater or lesser. As I said, regardless of merit. The fact is that we have to set ourselves on a pedestal in order to direct others and it rarely turns out well on impersonal message boards. It only starts arguments and often both sides eventually end up resenting the nanny.

If you're referring to me as the one putting myself on a pedestal let me be clear: I've been a real jerk sometimes in online conversations about various Church-related things. I'm sure there will be slip-ups in the future. I regret that I ever took on a snarky or made fun of people in these forums. It's not cool and I regret it. I hope if it happens in the future people will call me out and remind me that I try to set a better standard for myself. People can resent me all they want, but they'll know exactly where they stand with me, and that I don't hold grudges, and that I can value someone's work even if I have criticisms to make.

[Greg Smith]

Just for you, Greg, I will do my best to set aside my overwhelming bias and depravity, and give Will a fair hearing.

Don't do it for me, man. Do it for yourself.

And, I said nothing about depravity. Bias, yes. But, we're all biased.

But, I have found that particularly when I am unlikely by inclination to buy someone's argument because of who they are or my past experience with them, it is then that I need to pay closest attention.

As a medical teacher once said to me of the patients that ER docs dread to see walk in: "Even kooks eventually die of organic disease."

GLS

[Chris Smith]

Just a little humor, Greg. I know you didn't say anything about depravity.

[Greg Smith]

OK Greg, your item (b) is coming to pass as we speak on MDB. Every old thread related to Will and the BoA is being bumped for the purpose of demonstrating his alleged lack of knowledge regarding all things Abraham, for the purpose of poisoning the well regarding anything that he might present in the future.

Wow, that was faster than I thought.

But, if cinepro is still following along, the expectation (born of long observation) of this sort of thing was the serious subtext to my little joke.

GLS

[Greg Smith]

Just a little humor, Greg. I know you didn't say anything about depravity.

I know. As a Mormon, I know from depravity.

GLS

[LifeOnaPlate]

I know. As a Mormon, I know from depravity.

GLS

No man knows your depravity.

[Greg Smith]

No man knows your depravity.

Fawn Brodie does. She saw a photo of someone who once really looked like me.

They are obviously my love child.

GLS

[DonBradley]

I will be at Will's presentation and am open to any evidence he has to offer.

I am aware of a good deal of evidence that Abraham 2:18 through the end of the book was translated in Nauvoo; so I will be very surprised if Will has sufficient evidence to overturn that view. Thus far I have not seen any work by John Gee or post by Will that shows awareness of this evidence, much less deals with it. But I know well enough to keep an open mind. I've been wrong about bigger things!!

I'll be particularly interested in whether Will can shed light on the relationship of the KEP with the extant Kirtland Book of Abraham manuscripts.

But I wonder, is it necessary to faith and apologetics for Abraham 2::17f and 3 to have been translated before the KEP? I know that it needn't be necessary in order to be worth arguing, but it seems like so much stress is laid on this, as if it were necessary.

Will's arguments may turn out to be excellent, and to overwhelm seeming contrary evidence. But it doesn't follow from the fact that his arguments will be apologetic that they are necessary for faith nor that, from the perspective of a believer or of a nonbeliever, they are good. Nor does it follow from the fact that the arguments are apologetically useful that they must be bad, or that the truth of the Book of Abraham hinges on them, as though this FAIR presentation were The Last Best Hope of Mormonism. I can't help but think the Church will be fine either way.

Anyway, I'll be there, listening with interest to the latest.

Don