the incredible expanding, shrinking, and disappearing Lehites

[cdowis]

Mormon apologist Daniel Peterson has conceded that the Lehites made almost no contribution to the gene pool of American Indians, despite the BOM's claim that they are their principle ancestors.

Well, we are making some progress since you have withdrawn this statement. Let's see what else you got.

The most glaring problem of shrinking the Lehites is accounting for the vast numbers of Native Americans of Asian descent who clearly have lived in the New World for many thousands of years.

If there were so many Native Americans there when Lehi arrived, how in the heck did the tiny Lehite group usurp control so quickly and why is the Book of Mormon silent about this remarkable takeover?

Please show us in the BOM text where they "took over" all the other inhabitants.

CFR from the BOM text, please.

One could interpret that they lived in their own relatively small area, co-existing with the other natives within that same area. They had a mutual agreement to reside in close proximity in peace. But you clearly state that they DOMINATED the others, so this is a formal CFR request.

If Lehi and co. came to a full new world, how did they turn into millions without ever noticing their neighbors? They're never mentioned in the BOM.

We have addressed this many times on other threads.

DO YOUR RESEARCH, AND STOP WASTING OUR TIME. The BOM does clearly mention the others, the BOM or small plates of Nephi was focused on religious history, and the large plates of Nephi focused on the secular history and would have given the details of the others.

But since the new theory is that they intermarried with other American Indian tribes to the point of disappearing, does that mean that they intermarried with all these tribes, but never bothered to mention them or have any interaction with them?

Then we have the Jaredites. The theory is again that the BOM people intermarried with the natives, but also that the 'Jaredite' population was about 2 million at the time of the 600 B.C war.

You need to talk with the person who proposed this theory. The major theory theory regarding the Jaredites was that some remote colonies survived the battle of extinction, and this battle probably occurred later than 600BC.

There are of course some very obvious problems with this model. The assertion that the entire civilization of "Jaredites" exterminated each other save one survivor is silly to begin with; if the Jaredites lived there for more than 1000 years, and interbred with natives, they would have migrated all over the western hemisphere. So for them to all suddenly return to fight in the battle of Ramah like a bunch of lemmings is an absurdity.

I agree. As I said, there were distant colonies which were cut off from the main group, and survived.

[Wiki Wonka]

Mormon apologist Daniel Peterson has conceded that the Lehites made almost no contribution to the gene pool of American Indians, despite the BOM's claim that they are their principle ancestors.

I have an 1830 Book of Mormon replica. It makes no claims about the Lehites being "principal ancestors" or even being "among the ancestors" of the American Indians. Therefore the Book of Mormon itself does not make the claim that you say it does.

WW

[cdowis]

He already retracted that statement about the principal ancestors.

[Scott Lloyd]

He already retracted that statement about the principal ancestors.

Where did he do that?

[steelyray]

Who knows how widespread iron smelting was among the Nephite civilization? Why should we assume it was common enough to have left discernable evidence 1500 years later?

Who says the Americas didn't have wheels before the Europeans found them?

Pretty much what the Nephites found. What would be left after another 2000 years?

Quite a bit, actually. Preserved bones, tools, pottery, "rusty weapons," etc. You know, archeological evidence?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Quite a bit, actually. Preserved bones, tools, pottery, "rusty weapons," etc. You know, archeological evidence?

You presume to much then and seem to not understand much in the way of archaeology.

[steelyray]

Well, we are making some progress since you have withdrawn this statement. Let's see what else you got.

I have not entirly withdrawn the statement. It is easily documentable that this had been the teaching of the church for a very long time, thus the reason that Elder McKonkie felt the inclusion of the paragraph would be pretty safe. You would think that someone like a prophet might have received some inspiration otherwise at some point, without the 'assistance' of the secular world, no? But then again, that's rather the pattern of the church. Is God that slow on the uptake? The US government pressures them on polygamy, and finally a revelation comes that it should be stopped. Slavery is ended, the civil rights movement hits, and the church finally decides that black people aren't cursed. You think with God's prophet in charge, they'd be on the leading edge of that cause.

Please show us in the BOM text where they "took over" all the other inhabitants.

CFR from the BOM text, please.

One could interpret that they lived in their own relatively small area, co-existing with the other natives within that same area. They had a mutual agreement to reside in close proximity in peace. But you clearly state that they DOMINATED the others, so this is a formal CFR request.

No cross reference is needed here. Just some basic logic. All that is necessary to show this is simply putting two and two together. If they did not intermarry with local tribes, then there is no conceivable way by which their populations would've risen fast enough for the populations described in the timeframe suggested, even if every single woman was a baby-making machine, the men were never off to war, and the children looked after themselves.

If they did intermarry but did not dominate, then why do we read about leaders and kings all throughout the book, and how would the book have even been written at all?

If they intermarried and dominated, then why are the people with whom they intermarried never mentioned as being there?

If they did intermarry with these people, or even maintain a peaceable boundary with them, then where is the technological transfer? And why are items of Olmec culture, like their ballgame, for instance, left entirely out of the book? We find even in zealously religiously isolated populations, evidence of conceptual borrowing of both religious and technological advancement.

I'll say it again. LGT is not a theory, it is simply an apologist's conjecture. Theories can be tested.

Occam says that the BOM people never existed.

We have addressed this many times on other threads.

Point to one, please. Otherwise it sounds too much like a typical FARMS statement that 'we've addressed this elsewhere,' when in fact, all they did was gloss over with some polemics.

DO YOUR RESEARCH, AND STOP WASTING OUR TIME. The BOM does clearly mention the others, the BOM or small plates of Nephi was focused on religious history, and the large plates of Nephi focused on the secular history and would have given the details of the others.

This is simple conjecture supported by a story about 'large plates' whose existence themself relies upon a presupposition. It is not 'clear' at all.

[steelyray]

You presume to much then and seem to not understand much in the way of archaeology.

That's a pretty presumptuous statement to make about a person based on one sentence, no?

But Joseph Smith can just walk from point A to point B and stumble across the Garden of Eden, Zelph, hidden treasure buried by Indians. If you buy this then 'you' understand little about archeology.

[Jason]

Steelyray, when you want to discuss the subject seriously instead of just taking potshots at our faith, let me know.

[Craig Paxton]

That's a pretty presumptuous statement to make about a person based on one sentence, no?

But Joseph Smith can just walk from point A to point B and stumble across the Garden of Eden, Zelph, hidden treasure buried by Indians. If you buy this then 'you' understand little about archeology.

Steelyray....you are totally waisting your time here....We KNOW the church to be true and everything that it claims to be. No matter how much scientific evidence you want to throw at us...it mattereth not. Don't you know that facts don't matter here. We are only interested in truth and truth can only be achieved through the spirit, evidenced by a burning feeling in our breast...not through facts. No amount of facts or even the lack thereof nor your intellectual arguments can ever overcome the testimony of someone who has received their testimony through the confirmation of the Holy Ghost.

Your facts and arguments, as well intentioned as they may be, must first be built on a foundation of faith, for it is only through faith that your so-called scietific facts can correctly be interpreted. And we know through revelation given to prophets of God that the church is true...if you doubt me...just ask them...and they'll tell you that the church is true.

So take your facts and intellectual arguments someplace else...where facts matter. We want nothing to do with them here.

[SilverKnight]

Steelyray....you are totally waisting your time here....We KNOW the church to be true and everything that it claims to be. No matter how much scientific evidence you want to throw at us...it mattereth not. Don't you know that facts don't matter here. We are only interested in truth and truth can only be achieved through the spirit, evidenced by a burning feeling in our breast...not through facts. No amount of facts or even the lack thereof nor your intellectual arguments can ever overcome the testimony of someone who has received their testimony through the confirmation of the Holy Ghost.

Your facts and arguments, as well intentioned as they may be, must first be built on a foundation of faith, for it is only through faith that your so-called scietific facts can correctly be interpreted. And we know through revelation given to prophets of God that the church is true...if you doubt me...just ask them...and they'll tell you that the church is true.

So take your facts and intellectual arguments someplace else...where facts matter. We want nothing to do with them here.

Tag in the troll.

[mfbukowski]

This entire "issue" is totally without merit.

By the time of the death of Nephi, there were clearly enough people acknowledged in the Book of Jacob to show that all these "descendants" couldn't possibly have come from the people of Nephi alone.

Jacob 1:12

12 And it came to pass that Nephi died.

13 Now the people which were not Lamanites were Nephites; nevertheless, they were called Nephites, Jacobites, Josephites, Zoramites, Lamanites, Lemuelites, and Ishmaelites.

14 But I, Jacob, shall not hereafter distinguish them by these names, but I shall call them Laminates that seek to destroy the people of Nephi, and those who are friendly to Nephi I shall call Nephites, or the people of Nephi, according to the reigns of the kings.

I think it is clear that those who thought that the Nephites were the "principle" ancestors of the Native Americans were mistaken and statements to that effect were not doctrinal.

I believe that those statements in fact contradict what is implied the the above passage in the BOM.

[LifeOnaPlate]

For anyone interested in reading more about the issues steelyray is questioning see William J. Hamblin, "Basic Methodological Problems with the Anti-Mormon Approach to the Geography and Archaeology of the Book of Mormon."

[Craig Paxton]

Tag in the troll.

Moi, Troll? Je me permets de.

So...IF what I've said is NOT true...."that faith trumps facts and evidence" Please give me an example of any fact...any...that could trump your faith.

churp...churp...churp...

I rest my case....facts and conflicting evidence don't matter. Faith, that is confirmed by special feelings (ah hem; the holy ghost) can never be undermind by facts or evidence if they conflicts with the claims of Mormonism. Why? Becasue facts and evidence don't matter. There is NOTHING anyone could produce, discover or submit that could destroy the faith and belief of a large percentage of this forum becasue the church is true "no matter what".

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Moi, Troll? Je me permets de.

So...IF what I've said is NOT true...."that faith trumps facts and evidence" Please give me an example of any fact...any...that could trump your faith.

churp...churp...churp...

I rest my case....facts and conflicting evidence don't matter. Faith, that is confirmed by special feelings (ah hem; the holy ghost)will never be undermind by facts or evidence that conflicts with the claims of Mormonism. Why? Becasue facts and evidence don't matter. There is NOTHING anyone could produce, discover or submit that could destroy the faith and belief of a large percentage of this forum becasue the church is true "no matter what".

Faith does not trump facts. Nothing like well poisoning.

Acutally I think it ironic that there are many arguments that you would dismiss out of hand has they do not support your faith. That is that the LDS church is false. So I had no idea that you were talking about yourself in this diatrabe of yours.

[SilverKnight]

Moi, Troll? Je me permets de.

So...IF what I've said is NOT true...."that faith trumps facts and evidence" Please give me an example of any fact...any...that could trump your faith.

churp...churp...churp...

I rest my case....facts and conflicting evidence don't matter. Faith, that is confirmed by special feelings (ah hem; the holy ghost)will never be undermind by facts or evidence that conflicts with the claims of Mormonism. Why? Becasue facts and evidence don't matter. There is NOTHING anyone could produce, discover or submit that could destroy the faith and belief of a large percentage of this forum becasue the church is true "no matter what".

Most days my waxing agnosticism toward humanity is supported by some pretty strong evidence.

You see, I have a burning testimony of insipid drive-by trolls with single digit post counts.

They are amusing to watch streak the ball-field before being tackled by security.

Followed by a chorus of baritone crickets who CHURP.

[Craig Paxton]

Faith does not trump facts.

Ahhhhemmmm... Well Boyde K. Packer actualy agrees with me rather then you when he said...

"When confronted by evidence in the rocks below, rely on the witness of the heavens above

[Craig Paxton]

Faith does not trump facts.

Well...sorry to correct you but according to Boyde K. Packer, Faith always trumps facts... when he said,

"When confronted by evidence in the rocks below, rely on the witness of the heavens above

[Nathair/|\]

How about the fact that a being that was around for the big bang, that can control every subatomic particle in the universe and that can comprehend eternity knows mote than I do.

[Nathair/|\]

Duplication

[Nathair/|\]

Duplication mobile

[Thinking]

...subject to revision.

Statements like these suggest a church which is not led by revelation. Revision is just a softer word for correction.

It's clear from some revelations in the D&C (28:8, 32:2, 54:8 ) that Lamanite was a synonym for American Indian.

Statements like this from Spencer W. Kimball seem to be clear.

It was reported to us recently that in one area alone there were six Lamanite brethren on the full-time seminary faculty, and there are others elsewhere in the educational work. Not many years ago we would not have had six in the whole world. Now we find six in one faculty meeting in one area. This is the beginning of a great fulfillment of prophecy and promise that the gospel message would be carried back to these people, ideally by messengers of their own great Lamanite heritage. This great work will roll forward among their tribes like a stone cut out of the mountain without hands. It must fill the Lamanite world with the blessings of the restored gospel. The Missionary Department informs us that more and more Lamanite young men are accepting mission calls. There have been more stakes and wards organized in Lamanite areas. That pleases us greatly. We owe them much. They are our brothers and sisters. Much more must be done, and the magnitude of Lamanite work in the heart of Central and South America largely still awaits us. (Ensign, July 1979)

It sure sounds like previous leaders believed they knew who the Lamanites were because they were counting them.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Statements like these suggest a church which is not led by revelation. Revision is just a softer word for correction.

We've been over this. Statements like yours suggest a fellow who demanded perfection and found himself out of the church as a result.

It's clear from some revelations in the D&C (28:8, 32:2, 54:8 ) that Lamanite was a synonym for American Indian.

Statements like this from Spencer W. Kimball seem to be clear.

It sure sounds like previous leaders believed they knew who the Lamanites were because they were counting them.

We've been through this too.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Lamanites/Relationship_to_Amerindians

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Ahhhhemmmm... Well Boyde K. Packer actualy agrees with me rather then you when he said...

"When confronted by evidence in the rocks below, rely on the witness of the heavens above

[rodheadlee]

Ahhhhemmmm... Well Boyde K. Packer actualy agrees with me rather then you when he said...

"When confronted by evidence in the rocks below, rely on the witness of the heavens above