the incredible expanding, shrinking, and disappearing Lehites

[Zakuska]

If an amputee were to suddenly grow their limb back, and this could be traced in a way that most probably points to the Mormon God, I would be convinced.

But you never hear about any amputees growing their limbs back.

Never.

Ever.

This is false... my mother had her tonsils "amputated"... guess what... they grew back.

[Jason]

As I said earlier - God heals amputees all the time, it's just that He usually doesn't also restore their limbs.

[Zakuska]

Heres another story...

Medicine's Cutting Edge: Re-Growing Organs

Three years ago, Lee Spievack sliced off the tip of his finger in the propeller of a hobby shop airplane.

What happened next, Andrews reports, propelled him into the future of medicine. Spievack's brother, Alan, a medical research scientist, sent him a special powder and told him to sprinkle it on the wound.

"I powdered it on until it was covered," Spievack recalled.

To his astonishment, every bit of his fingertip grew back.

"Your finger grew back," Andrews asked Spievack, "flesh, blood, vessels and nail?"

"Four weeks," he answered.

Andrews spoke to Dr. Steven Badylak of the University of Pittsburgh's McGowan Institute of Regenerative Medicine and asked if that powder was the reason behind Spievack's new finger tip.

"Yes, it is," Badylak explained. "We took this and turned it into a powdered form."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/22/sunday/main3960219.shtml

[Kevin Christensen]

Kevin, you are a credit to your religion...thank you for your even tone and thoughtful response...you impress even me

You are welcome.

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[Bernard Gui]

Quote:

Only they quite obviously weren't modeled after a 19th century view.

'View of the Hebrews,' perhaps?

In View of the Hebrews, Ethan Smith makes the case that Native Americans are descendants of the lost 10 tribes of Israel.

p72 My present object is rather to attend to the present state of the ten tribes of Israel. This branch of the Hebrew family have

long been "outcasts" out of sight; or unknown as Hebrews. The questions arise, are they in existence, as a distinct people?

If so, who, or where are they? These are queries of great moment, at this period, when the time of their restoration is drawing near.

pp128-129 Many things may be very probably fancied concerning the kinds or degrees of evidence, which must at last exhibit

the ten tribes to the world. But Providence may adopt a different method. The methods divinely adopted in every point,

have usually been such as to stain the pride of all human glory. The Afghans in Persia

may prove to be a small part of the ten tribes. But it is doubted whether their evidence is by any means so full as that of the American natives.

The latter have, to say the least, very considerable of just such kind of evidence, as it would naturally be supposed must bring to light

the ten tribes after remaining for millenaries in a savage state.

He appeals to memoirs, historians, explorers, and government officials who have had contact with Native Americans on both

North and South American continents, comparing them with Old Testament scripture and general knowledge about the Hebrews.

---Both are divided into tribes.

---Both share similar and obvious physical characteristics

---Both came from one single family.

---Both worship only one God, the Great Spirit. [x]

---Neither make images of God.

---Both name God

[USU78]

If an amputee were to suddenly grow their limb back, and this could be traced in a way that most probably points to the Mormon God, I would be convinced.

Mormons of a certain age ought to be getting the willies upon reading that.

Yikes.

[Craig Paxton]

I see, I just figured you were being tongue in cheek. I get it.

I responded with a bit of sarcasim that Craig might pick up on.

Don't feed the Trolls....

[mfbukowski]

Mormons of a certain age ought to be getting the willies upon reading that.

Yikes.

Touche'!

I totally missed it until you said that!

[Craig Paxton]

Oh nothing like making the text say something it does not. Nothing in the text demands that they were replicas of Laban's sword. In fact it is not even suggested that the materials used were the same. Consider Nephi's temple, was it the same as Solomon's temple? No the text says that it was created like unto Solomon's. That suggest that it was similar in function. The text further tells us that it lacked many things that Solomon's temple had. If that is that case that Nephi's temple lacked manything Solomon's temple did, is it inconceivable that Nephi's swords lacked many things that Laban's sword had. No were does the text state that Nephi's sowrds were made of steel. That is you forcing an interpretion onto the text.

Can a sword be like unto Laban's with out being made of steel? The answer is yes.

Ok I'll bite...

In a world where words have no meaning...where age long understandings can be twisted to accommodate reality and where Mormonism can remain unscathed by doing so; where horse does not mean a horse; where chariot does not mean a chariot; where

[Zakuska]

In a world where words have no meaning...where age long understandings can be twisted to accommodate reality and where Mormonism can remain unscathed by doing so; where horse does not mean a horse; where chariot does not mean a chariot; where

[rodheadlee]

Ah right here...

14 And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban,[a'Steel Sword' see 1 Ne. 4: 9] and after the manner of it [suggesting that he made swords like laban's steel sword] did make many swords,[or Mass-Produced swords]

So yeah one could interpret that to mean that Nephi "Mass-Produced" Steel Swords after the manner of Laban's steel sword...but hey I think you could also interpret it to mean that he mass produced wooden hitty thingies with sharp bone projectiles protruding from them that weren

[ERayR]

Craig, in a saltwater tropical environment you are not going to find steel artifacts more than a few years old, unless it was high grade stainless steel. I know this from experience not from academic knowledge of metallurgy.

Craig has no interest in reality.

[LeSellers]

14 And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban,[a'Steel Sword' see 1 Ne. 4: 9] and after the manner of it [suggesting that he made swords like laban's steel sword] did make many swords,[or Mass-Produced swords]

So yeah one could interpret that to mean that Nephi "Mass-Produced" Steel Swords after the manner of Laban's steel sword...but hey I think you could also interpret it to mean that he mass produced wooden hitty thingies with sharp bone projectiles protruding from them that weren

[cdowis]

In a world where words have no meaning...where age long understandings can be twisted to accommodate reality and where Mormonism can remain unscathed by doing so; where horse does not mean a horse; where chariot does not mean a chariot; where

[ERayR]

I believe a horse is a horse and a chariot is a chariot. But also note that steel is mentioned in the Old Testament before Lehi. http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=simple&format=Long&q1=steel&restrict=Old+Testament&size=First+100

So, do you believe that steel is steel? And how about brass, which was mentioned at the time of Genesis and Exodus.

You can either stay, or go away in a childish huff. It's your choice.

Ok, Nephi produced steel swords. So what? When he says "many", tell us how many Nephites there were at that time who were of military age? Ten..... twenty.... Remember this was the first generation after landing, and this group had already divided itself into Nephites and Lamanites. So, how many did Nephi need to produce?

Assuming he found meteorite metals, there would have been enough to arm such a small group. You will find this article of interest regarding steel. http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_metals.shtml#steel

So, you can hang around and respond, or you can run away and hide.

Steel production is at least 2500 years old. I went through this with John Larson in another thread and its too late for me to look it up again. A simple google search will do. In a warm damp climate steel would not last long without serious care.

[ERayR]

I believe a horse is a horse and a chariot is a chariot. But also note that steel is mentioned in the Old Testament before Lehi. http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=simple&format=Long&q1=steel&restrict=Old+Testament&size=First+100

So, do you believe that steel is steel? And how about brass, which was mentioned at the time of Genesis and Exodus.

You can either stay, or go away in a childish huff. It's your choice.

Ok, Nephi produced steel swords. So what? When he says "many", tell us how many Nephites there were at that time who were of military age? Ten..... twenty.... Remember this was the first generation after landing, and this group had already divided itself into Nephites and Lamanites. So, how many did Nephi need to produce?

Assuming he found meteorite metals, there would have been enough to arm such a small group. You will find this article of interest regarding steel. http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_metals.shtml#steel

So, you can hang around and respond, or you can run away and hide.

Steel production is at least 2500 years old. I went through this with John Larson in another thread and its too late for me to look it up again. A simple google search will do. In a warm damp climate steel would not last long without serious care.

Why do we continue to have to reinvent the wheel (pun intended) for everyone who doesn't pay attention and is too lazy to do a simle google search?

[mfbukowski]

So, you can hang around and respond, or you can run away and hide.

He can't come back now.

It would prove that resurrection is possible

[Bernard Gui]

In a world where words have no meaning...where age long understandings can be twisted to accommodate reality and where Mormonism can remain unscathed by doing so; where horse does not mean a horse; where chariot does not mean a chariot; where

[Bernard Gui]

He can't come back now.

It would prove that resurrection is possible

Or that he actually cares.

Bernard

[Kevin Christensen]

Ok I'll bite...

In a world where words have no meaning...where age long understandings can be twisted to accommodate reality and where Mormonism can remain unscathed by doing so; where horse does not mean a horse; where chariot does not mean a chariot; where

[steelyray]

God heals amputees all the time. It's just that He usually doesn't restore their limbs as well.

Alright, it turns out that I have about another week before my new job starts, so I'll answer a few more before I drop off the radar.

Now you're just playing with semantics in what it means to 'heal' an amputee. Do they live? Yes. Do they recover from injury and are able to function in some fashion? Yes. But 'healing' as is obviously meant by yours truly would be a regrowth of the limb lost.

[steelyray]

I believe a horse is a horse and a chariot is a chariot. But also note that steel is mentioned in the Old Testament before Lehi. http://quod.lib.umic...&size=First+100

So, do you believe that steel is steel? And how about brass, which was mentioned at the time of Genesis and Exodus.

You can either stay, or go away in a childish huff. It's your choice.

Here I was all excited when you found some steel in the Old Testament. But alas, no. All references came from the KJV, which is notoriously imprecise in word selection. Every other respectable translation uses 'bronze' for these verse entries.

Ok, Nephi produced steel swords. So what? When he says "many", tell us how many Nephites there were at that time who were of military age? Ten..... twenty.... Remember this was the first generation after landing, and this group had already divided itself into Nephites and Lamanites. So, how many did Nephi need to produce?

Assuming he found meteorite metals, there would have been enough to arm such a small group. You will find this article of interest regarding steel. http://www.jefflinds...als.shtml#steel

Lindsay, in his usual exaggerated fashion, completely overstates the amount of doubt that exists as to whether bronze is the appropriate word for the Bible references. Even his New English reference is wrong and he puts words into the mouths of the translators. Here is the quote from the translators of the New English Translation:

¹ tn Or

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Ok I'll bite...

In a world where words have no meaning...where age long understandings can be twisted to accommodate reality and where Mormonism can remain unscathed by doing so; where horse does not mean a horse; where chariot does not mean a chariot; where

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

On this point, from my Truth and Method essay in FR 16:1

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

I think I should just leave this coverstation up to you. Oh well I tried anyways.

[Jason]

Now you're just playing with semantics in what it means to 'heal' an amputee. Do they live? Yes. Do they recover from injury and are able to function in some fashion? Yes. But 'healing' as is obviously meant by yours truly would be a regrowth of the limb lost.

Obviously God means something different by "heal" than you do.

Don't worry - every amputee will eventually have their limbs fully restored in the resurrection. In the mean time God will heal those with faith of their hurts and they will learn the lessons that their trials teach them.