Is wealth a sin?

[ttribe]

So you're saying the rich steal from the rich, as well as from the poor? I can see how that is true, but I think the rich who steal from those who are richer probably think of themselves as poor when compared to those who are richer than they are.

Umm. No.

Wtih fraud, I don't think most are pretending to be really poor people, because really poor people have no riches, or at least no material riches, of any monetary value, or at least very little of it.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

Here's some reading - ACFE 2010 Fraud Survey Link

[Ahab]

You haven't done any work, so it says nothing.

Heh, and you think I am blind. Good grief.

The fact that other people pay you little money generally means your work, the quality of your work is not exceptional, indeed it is common.

The fact that it's common doesn't mean it isn't hard work.

You or your ego may "think" that your work is exceptional, but your position is the rest of the world is mad, or crazy for not seeing your work as being exceptional. Apparently its not nearly as exceptional as you think it is. Your hubris creates a fantasy land.

Where are you getting the idea that hard work, or good quality hard work, has anything to do with being exceptional, or not?

As to why people pay as little as possible. It is because they are saving their money for the exceptional work they would pay extra for. To the rest of the world, who judge your work, which speaks for itself, your work is saying "not that good".

If you really liked something, like comic books, and if you had millions of dollars, I'm guessing you would feel justified in spending more for a very rare comic book in mint condition than you would pay someone to do something ordinary because, after all, anyone can do something ordinary, but that comic book is really something!

Not that you necessarily like comic books, though. You just stike me as someone with that type of mentality.

The tune of many a rank amateur carpentar. I could introduce you to some people in Orange County CA, an expensive place to live, who own their own carpentry business. They do excellent work, I have seen it. They struggle too, but their work is judged exceptional and so people pay an exceptional price because that price measures what their clients want, versus your view that somehow your clients should want your work more.

There you go, you said it yourself. Even those who do excellent work sometimes struggle, too.

Two points you seem to be blind to.

1- if you give charitably and expect reciprocations, then its not charity, it is barter or money based.

I've learned to not "expect" reciprocations from most people. I'm just saying it would be nice to receive as well as to give charitably.

2- you seem to think the lack of money will make what you produce more valuable. The lack of a yardstick does not make a man taller.

Right, and the man is just as tall as he is with or without the yardstick.

[ttribe]

Not that you necessarily like comic books, though. You just stike me as someone with that type of mentality.

Is your mouth getting tired of your foot constantly jamming itself in there?

[Jeff K.]

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The fact that other people pay you little money generally means your work, the quality of your work is not exceptional, indeed it is common.

The fact that it's common doesn't mean it isn't hard work.

Treading water is hard work, it doesn't mean you have accomplished anything of note or even value. Hard work alone does not equal value.

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You or your ego may "think" that your work is exceptional, but your position is the rest of the world is mad, or crazy for not seeing your work as being exceptional. Apparently its not nearly as exceptional as you think it is. Your hubris creates a fantasy land.

Where are you getting the idea that hard work, or good quality hard work, has anything to do with being exceptional, or not?

Your right. You could do a lousy job and still work hard at it. It amounts to the same thing. You say its good quality work, the people who pay think it is common and "good quality" usually means better than average. Think about it.

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As to why people pay as little as possible. It is because they are saving their money for the exceptional work they would pay extra for. To the rest of the world, who judge your work, which speaks for itself, your work is saying "not that good".

If you really liked something, like comic books, and if you had millions of dollars, I'm guessing you would feel justified in spending more for a very rare comic book in mint condition than you would pay someone to do something ordinary because, after all, anyone can do something ordinary, but that comic book is really something!

Not that you necessarily like comic books, though. You just stike me as someone with that type of mentality.

As one who likes comic books would pay a little more for an above average comic book. As I have said, your work apparently is not considered "good" if people pay the least you think its worth.

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The tune of many a rank amateur carpentar. I could introduce you to some people in Orange County CA, an expensive place to live, who own their own carpentry business. They do excellent work, I have seen it. They struggle too, but their work is judged exceptional and so people pay an exceptional price because that price measures what their clients want, versus your view that somehow your clients should want your work more.

There you go, you said it yourself. Even those who do excellent work sometimes struggle, too.

For a moment I will bypass the fact CA has a 12% unemployment rate and is in the crapper, since it is irrelevant to my post. They struggle to do good work, not necessarily financially, they work hard AND have quality. Financially they are doing ok, even with the construction collapse.

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Two points you seem to be blind to.

1- if you give charitably and expect reciprocations, then its not charity, it is barter or money based.

I've learned to not "expect" reciprocations from most people. I'm just saying it would be nice to receive as well as to give charitably.

But you are expecting it, you said so yourself.

I'm willing to give charitably in all of my offerings to others, but most people in the world will not reciprocate and instead want nothing but cold hard cash

Another point being you may not have anything they need. What then?

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2- you seem to think the lack of money will make what you produce more valuable. The lack of a yardstick does not make a man taller.

Right, and the man is just as tall as he is with or without the yardstick.

Even when he isn't exceptionally tall or even tall enough for the job.

Is it sinking in yet?

[Ahab]

Treading water is hard work, it doesn't mean you have accomplished anything of note or even value. Hard work alone does not equal value.

Your right. You could do a lousy job and still work hard at it. It amounts to the same thing. You say its good quality work, the people who pay think it is common and "good quality" usually means better than average. Think about it.

I understand the fact that hard work doesn't necessarily equate to high quality work, but I do believe I do high quality work even though it isn't out of the ordinary, or exceptional, in my profession, and here I am still struggling, not to mention the fact that even if I wasn't struggling that still wouldn't mean I would have my share of all the good things it's possible to have in this world.

As one who likes comic books would pay a little more for an above average comic book. As I have said, your work apparently is not considered "good" if people pay the least you think its worth.

Try considering the possibiilty that my work is good, even though other people can do the same high quality work that I do, and it's the fact that others can do the same high quality work that I do which causes my employer to think he can justiably pay me as little as possible instead of giving me more money to enjoy more of the good things in this world.

I mean, why pay more than you have to? Right? Isn't that where you are coming from?

Well, I'm saying: Because with charity in your heart you would want to give me as much as you possibly could, instead of trying to get away with giving me as little as possible.

But you are expecting it, you said so yourself.

No. I do think they should, and I really would like it if they did, while I hope they will, but I really don't expect them to do it, and I would be very surprised if they actually did it. Thankful, even.

Another point being you may not have anything they need. What then?

Consideration for the fact that they may have something I need.

Even when he isn't exceptionally tall or even tall enough for the job.

Perhaps my point would be more apparent to you if I said a man with a thousand acres of land would still have that much land even if there were no measuring stick to measure how much land he had, and with no $$$ signs affixed to the land, either.

Is it sinking in yet?

Is it sinking in with you yet that I'm talking about being charitable to others, even if those othes may not "deserve" it.

[ttribe]

Is it sinking in with you yet that I'm talking about being charitable to others, even if those othes may not "deserve" it.

That's not the order of things. If so, then all should be allowed into the Celestial Kingdom. That would, after all, be extremely charitable.

[Ahab]

That's not the order of things. If so, then all should be allowed into the Celestial Kingdom. That would, after all, be extremely charitable.

All that is necessary to attain the Celestial Kingdom is to act charitably in all that we do. Charity is the key to everything.

It's the people who don't show charity who will be left out, and it will be because they didn't have charity.

[ttribe]

All that is necessary to attain the Celestial Kingdom is to act charitably in all that we do.

Uhh, no.

Charity is the key to everything.

I don't deny its importance, but there are other more important aspects of the Gospel (like the Atonement).

It's the people who don't show charity who will be left out, and it will be because they didn't have charity.

So, because I haven't sent you a check with any surplus I might have, am I not acting "charitable?"

[Jeff K.]

I understand the fact that hard work doesn't necessarily equate to high quality work, but I do believe I do high quality work even though it isn't out of the ordinary, or exceptional, in my profession, and here I am still struggling, not to mention the fact that even if I wasn't struggling that still wouldn't mean I would have my share of all the good things it's possible to have in this world.

What if only you believe its high quality work? Again, its the same thing. Your view of your hard work and value. You seem to value it more than anyone else, and the rest of the world does not see your "high quality" in your work.

Try considering the possibiilty that my work is good, even though other people can do the same high quality work that I do, and it's the fact that others can do the same high quality work that I do which causes my employer to think he can justiably pay me as little as possible instead of giving me more money to enjoy more of the good things in this world.

I mean, why pay more than you have to? Right? Isn't that where you are coming from?

Well, I'm saying: Because with charity in your heart you would want to give me as much as you possibly could, instead of trying to get away with giving me as little as possible.

Try to consider the possibility that your work "isn't" good, and other people do superior work.

it's the fact that others can do the same high quality work that I do which causes my employer to think he can justiably pay me as little as possible instead of giving me more money to enjoy more of the good things in this world

In other words, its not that hard or everyone wouldn't be doing it. Turning a screwdriver in an automobile plant can be hard work (especially on a hot day), it doesn't justify a large salary or bonus since everyone/anyone can do it. If someone else can do it for less, why worry about what you can do it for?

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Another point being you may not have anything they need. What then?

Consideration for the fact that they may have something I need.

Too bad. Earn what they have, don't take it, don't insiste on it because you "need it". Show the exceptional good work you do and establish the value of what you need. Learn a trade in their demand pool. If you refuse to do so, then you really don't need what they have now do you?

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Even when he isn't exceptionally tall or even tall enough for the job.

Perhaps my point would be more apparent to you if I said a man with a thousand acres of land would still have that much land even if there were no measuring stick to measure how much land he had, and with no $$$ signs affixed to the land, either.

So. As they say in fencing, where is your point? (In your case perhaps the barbwire industry). He has made sacrifices to obtain that land, indeed he values it because he earned it through hard work with quality. Quality that those around him agree with since they gave him the money to earn that land. You want to deny him the worth of his work while simultaneously inflating the worth of your work.

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Is it sinking in yet?

Is it sinking in with you yet that I'm talking about being charitable to others, even if those othes may not "deserve" it.

Actually if you read my last point, it becomes apparent you want to steal from them and deny them their work. If a man is charitable he will be so to those in need, not those in "want". So far you have expressed a want, not a need, in effect grousing about the betterment of others through their hard work while simultaneously stating that your hard work is good in an inflated way.

To give you my mindset of the situation, allow me to share a story with you.

I like southern California, the weather is nice (not as nice as Hawaii, but a heck of a lot nicer than Nebraska), my wife is from here, that alone gives it high marks in my book. However I have to say that sometimes, I miss the biting cold of winter. I miss the blanket of whiteness that lays around and over everything; it makes the world seem somehow surreal. I miss the cold snap you feel in your throat when you breathe in. To see the ground and trees brighter than the gray skies is a delight for me. To feel the soft crunch of crystals under my feet makes me smile sometimes. Or avenues that are half buried except for a single strip in the center where the salt has

[Nathair/|\]

What if only you believe its high quality work? Again, its the same thing. Your view of your hard work and value. You seem to value it more than anyone else, and the rest of the world does not see your "high quality" in your work.

Try to consider the possibility that your work "isn't" good, and other people do superior work.

In other words, its not that hard or everyone wouldn't be doing it. Turning a screwdriver in an automobile plant can be hard work (especially on a hot day), it doesn't justify a large salary or bonus since everyone/anyone can do it. If someone else can do it for less, why worry about what you can do it for?

Too bad. Earn what they have, don't take it, don't insiste on it because you "need it". Show the exceptional good work you do and establish the value of what you need. Learn a trade in their demand pool. If you refuse to do so, then you really don't need what they have now do you?

So. As they say in fencing, where is your point? (In your case perhaps the barbwire industry). He has made sacrifices to obtain that land, indeed he values it because he earned it through hard work with quality. Quality that those around him agree with since they gave him the money to earn that land. You want to deny him the worth of his work while simultaneously inflating the worth of your work.

Actually if you read my last point, it becomes apparent you want to steal from them and deny them their work. If a man is charitable he will be so to those in need, not those in "want". So far you have expressed a want, not a need, in effect grousing about the betterment of others through their hard work while simultaneously stating that your hard work is good in an inflated way.

To give you my mindset of the situation, allow me to share a story with you.

I like southern California, the weather is nice (not as nice as Hawaii, but a heck of a lot nicer than Nebraska), my wife is from here, that alone gives it high marks in my book. However I have to say that sometimes, I miss the biting cold of winter. I miss the blanket of whiteness that lays around and over everything; it makes the world seem somehow surreal. I miss the cold snap you feel in your throat when you breathe in. To see the ground and trees brighter than the gray skies is a delight for me. To feel the soft crunch of crystals under my feet makes me smile sometimes. Or avenues that are half buried except for a single strip in the center where the salt has

[Ahab]

Thanks for sharing some of your story, Jeff. I think it helps me to understand you a little better, and while it may surprise you a little, I feel like I've been like that old lady and I was looking right back at you. Maybe I'll share some more of my story with you a little bit later.

Anyway, I really havent been "grousing. I'm simply a little more open these days with my thoughts and my feelings than I used to be in the past, and I have noticed that things are very unfair in this world. Just like the saying goes: Life isn't fair.

That shouldn't stop us any of us from being charitable, though.

[ttribe]

That shouldn't stop us any of us from being charitable, though.

No one suggested otherwise.

[Ahab]

Uhh, no.

Actually, yes.

I don't deny its importance, but there are other more important aspects of the Gospel (like the Atonement).

Pure charity.

So, because I haven't sent you a check with any surplus I might have, am I not acting "charitable?"

Well, let's just say that if you did that, you would be acting very charitably to me.

And btw, I'm not trying to get you to give anything to me, specifically, and certainly not all of the surplus you have.

If you gave what you really didn't need to others, though, and everyone else did that too, what a wonderful world this would be.

[ttribe]

Actually, yes.

Nevermind the ordinances and such. Have you been to the Temple yet?

Well, let's just say that if you did that, you would be acting very charitably to me.

And btw, I'm not trying to get you to give anything to me, specifically, and certainly not all of the surplus you have.

If you gave what you really didn't need to others, though, and everyone else did that too, what a wonderful world this would be.

And yet, there are myriad ways in which I am sharing with others (in terms of both time and money), many of which are unknown to all but a few. Would you have me publicize these things to overcome judgment at the hands of those with whom I haven't shared?

[Ahab]

Nevermind the ordinances and such.

All signs of the charity we feel within us, as a result of our Lord's charity.

Have you been to the Temple yet?

Yes.

And yet, there are myriad ways in which I am sharing with others (in terms of both time and money), many of which are unknown to all but a few. Would you have me publicize these things to overcome judgment at the hands of those with whom I haven't shared?

I can understand you not wanting to publicize the specifics of the good things you have done for others. What I don't understood is why you haven't upheld what I have said, in principle, when I have been talking about what it means to have charity.

[ttribe]

I can understand you not wanting to publicize the specifics of the good things you have done for others. What I don't understood is why you haven't upheld what I have said, in principle, when I have been talking about what it means to have charity.

Because I don't agree with you on what "equal" means in this context.

Because I don't think we should take it upon ourselves to take these matters to the ends you wish in the current context.

Because I don't agree with you that all should be cared for when they have done little or nothing to help themselves.

Because there are many people out there who believe free-riding, theft, and fraud are acceptable (even preferable) forms of gaining temporal goods.

[Ahab]

Because I don't agree with you on what "equal" means in this context.

In what ways do you think we should be equal with our substance, then?

Consider how you will treat others in the Celestial kingdom, and how you hope they will treat you when you want their help with something.

Because I don't think we should take it upon ourselves to take these matters to the ends you wish in the current context.

What do you think we should do, then, to show more charity towards other people?

What do you do, yourself, to ensure that you treat others with the charity you hope Celestial people will show you?

Because I don't agree with you that all should be cared for when they have done little or nothing to help themselves.

What do you think others should do all by themselves before you or anyone else does something to try to help them?

Because there are many people out there who believe free-riding, theft, and fraud are acceptable (even preferable) forms of gaining temporal goods.

What wouldn't you be willing to give someone to help them have something they need, while you also have what you need, too?

Who do you think you're serving when you serve your fellow man?

[The King's Servant]

I was recently in a discussion about this very topic. I thought that it had some merit and wanted to open this up to more of a debate. What are your thoughts.

And if having a big house is a sin and having a lot of money is a sin at what point does it become a sin to have a big house? What too much money and what is to big of a house?

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Debate!!

The title to this thread is supposed to be big not bog. Thanks for your consideration.

I would say being a braggart about one's riches is a sin. There is one Mormon I note (on another site) who consistently brags about his riches and wealth. It's rather sad, really. He seems to see wealth as a sign of God's favor - although the New Testament seems to teach quite the opposite:

"But woe unto you that are RICH! for ye have received your consolation"

[mercyngrace]

On my drive home today (been out of town) I was thinking about the parable of the Good Samaritan and felt impressed to add it to this thread since we've been discussing the proper use of wealth.

Here's the parable:

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[LeSellers]

Could we characterize the man from Jerusalem as partially at fault for not being more cautious, traveling in a group for instance, better hiding his money, or being better prepared to defend himslef? If so, who are the people in today's world who, having been less careful than they should have been, are left by the wayside? [My emphasis.]

The parable says nothing about money. The thing the thieves stripped him of was his garment. "Garment", in scriptures, often means "righteousness" or "power".

Which may make your analysis deeper.

Lehi

[mercyngrace]

The parable says nothing about money. The thing the thieves stripped him of was his garment. "Garment", in scriptures, often means "righteousness" or "power".

Which may make your analysis deeper.

Lehi

Yes it does. But the fact that we can find deeper metaphorical meanings in the parable doesn't free us to ignore the plain and precious counsel to care for others, does it?

Pres. N. Eldon Tanner used this parable specifically to teach principles of welfare and charity.

[LeSellers]

Yes it did.

Not that the thieves took the "certain man's" money. The only money it talks about was the two denarii the Samaritan gave the innkeeper. They were not what I was interested in.

the fact that we can find deeper metaphorical meanings in the parable doesn't free us to ignore the plain and precious counsel to care for others, does it?

Pres. N. Eldon Tanner used this parable specifically to teach principles of welfare and charity.

The heart of parables is to be ogre-like. They're many-layered by design.

But, as Margaret Thatcher pointed out, the Samaritan had more than good intentions

[mercyngrace]

But, as Margaret Thatcher pointed out, the Samaritan had more than good intentions

[LeSellers]

Exactly, and we're talking about how he used his money.

Lehi, don't confuse me with others who believe in forcibly redistributing wealth.

Just trying for clarity.

While I enjoy the scriptures' depth and multi-faceted ambiguity, I do not like vagueness in this kind of discussion.

Lehi

[ttribe]

In what ways do you think we should be equal with our substance, then?

I think we should follow the example of the Church's welfare program which requires accountability and forces no one.

Consider how you will treat others in the Celestial kingdom, and how you hope they will treat you when you want their help with something.

I'm not sure this is how the CK works.

What do you think we should do, then, to show more charity towards other people?

I think that is an individual, and personal, matter.

What do you do, yourself, to ensure that you treat others with the charity you hope Celestial people will show you?

That's even more personal.

What do you think others should do all by themselves before you or anyone else does something to try to help them?

I think we should follow the example of the Church's welfare program which requires accountability and forces no one.

What wouldn't you be willing to give someone to help them have something they need, while you also have what you need, too?

I'm not willing to give a thief anything. That's what this was talking about. Don't shift the focus.

Who do you think you're serving when you serve your fellow man?

I don't think the scripture requires me to be taken by a thief. That's not service to God.