Is wealth a sin?

[mercyngrace]

Just trying for clarity.

While I enjoy the scriptures' depth and multi-faceted ambiguity, I do not like vagueness in this kind of discussion.

Lehi

What is vague about the divine mandate to care for those in need? What is vague about King Benjamin's reminder that we are all beggars? What is vague about the definition and description of Zion found in the scriptures?

These threads frustrate me for a different reason. They always seem to veer unnecessarily in the wrong direction because IMO some people are more wedded to political and economic ideologies than to what is actually written in the scriptures. Why does any discussion of clear guidance as presented in holy writ have to deteriorate to the baseness of politics?

God didn't call any of us to be Republicans or Democrats. He called upon us to be Saints.

[mercyngrace]

As much as I hate to resurrect this thread, I just have to do so after reading in James tonight.

1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.

2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.

3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.

5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.

The chapter heading reads: Misery awaits the wanton rich

Wanton: extravagantly or excessively luxurious, as a person, manner of living, or style.

So, given this warning from James, how much wealth acquisition qualifies as wanton?

And from D&C 56 a warning to both rich and poor:

16 Wo unto you rich men, that will not give your substance to the poor, for your riches will canker your souls; and this shall be your lamentation in the day of visitation, and of judgment, and of indignation: The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and my soul is not saved!

17 Wo unto you poor men, whose hearts are not broken, whose spirits are not contrite, and whose bellies are not satisfied, and whose hands are not stayed from laying hold upon other men

[rockslider]

...

Hey wonderful, mostly saying hello ... very busy ...

Out of all my sins and problems, at least this is not one of them ... I wonder if I could trade a few ...

[mercyngrace]

Hey wonderful, mostly saying hello ... very busy ...

Out of all my sins and problems, at least this is not one of them ... I wonder if I could trade a few ...

Hey back

I know what you mean about trading. I could use a little wanton wealth today. Wonder if I'd be forgiven for buying a lottery ticket if I donate 95% of my winnings to the poor?

[Ahab]

I could use a little wanton wealth tday. Wonder if I'd be forgiven for buying a lottery ticket if I donate 95% of my winnings to the poor?

I'm not sure on the exact figures, but I'd guestimate that about 95% of lottery proceeds comes from poor people who are hoping to strike it rich, so if you gave 95% back to the poor you wouldn't be doing much to help them because you''d basically only be giving back what they had already given which came from the little that they had to spare.

... but at least you'd be doing that much, huh, instead of only taking from those poor people to support a wanton lifestyle.

And btw, when I think about how to avoid living a "wanton" lifestyle, I think about how little I can get away with spending on myself and my family while still getting the things we really need, and even a lot of the things that we want.

For example, we sold our big custom built 3400 sq ft. house in the city for $420,000 to get 2 acres out in the country, where good land and property taxes were/are much less than in the city, while also getting a manufactured (mobile) home to put on it, instead of spending more to have some contractor build us a more expensive and more elaborate stick-built house, as our way to avoid spending what we thought of as too much to spend on a house.

Now, the manufactured home is a triple wide, which is more elaborate than a single- or double-wide, and it does have some nice features that we added as an option, but it was still a very modest price to spend on a house, $150,000, and the land wasn't all that expensive either, $95,000, although we had to spend about $55,000 to get it set up on what was then natural forest land, so we think we did pretty well at keeping our home expense at a modest level. And having all of that land gives us enough property to have a really nice garden, and an orchard of fruit and nut trees, and a pond, and our very own water supply with very good water from a well, and a septic system so we are independent in that way too, as well as a lot of landscaping projects to keep us very busy until we can do all that we want done, ourselves.

And btw, we think it's fun trying to try to live a frugal life, rather than acting like we have a lot of money to burn on ourselves in the world, because not only do we still manage to get most of what we really need and even a lot of things that we want in this world, but we also have more left to work with as we try to help other people become as "rich" as we are, both temporarally and spiritually, which makes being thrifty a good way to be.

[Jeff K.]

I was thinking on this while they filmed me yesterday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkMsSIjQXxo

[thesometimesaint]

I've done the poor times, the middle class times. I'd like to try the rich times, just from an experiential stand point.

[Ahab]

I've done the poor times, the middle class times. I'd like to try the rich times, just from an experiential stand point.

I've been there, done that, as part of my Dad's family, and while I thought it was nice at the time, I have guilt now from having lived that way in the past, which now fills me with some regret, both for me and my Dad, personally.

... and I'm talking a 6000 sq ft house on a nice acre of land worth about $1,000,000 dollars along with a 40 ft motor home worth about $400,000 and a 2000 sq ft cabin in the woods on 40 acres of land worth about $500,000 along with a lot of nice cars and trucks and a personal business that generated about $1,000,000 a year.

[mercyngrace]

I've done the poor times, the middle class times. I'd like to try the rich times, just from an experiential stand point.

We've never made enough to be considered "rich" by modern US standards but I've always felt rich. We've always had enough - never gone to bed hungry or cold.

And Ahab, if a poor person spends money on the lottery, they are not being a good steward. If I were to win the lottery and return the money to them it would be an act of charity not social justice.

[thesometimesaint]

Ahab:

Everyone gets their share of ice. The poor get it in winter, the rich get it summer. I've got ice any time I want it. So I must be rich.

[Ahab]

And Ahab, if a poor person spends money on the lottery, they are not being a good steward.

No argument from me on that point.

If I were to win the lottery and return the money to them it would be an act of charity not social justice.

I define social justice as making things right or as they should be in society, so if you returned money that came from poor people to those poor people, you would be putting it back in the hands of the people it belonged to, which would be the right thing to do, since those are the poor people and nobody needs that money any more than they, the poor people, do.

The fact that they didn't spend their money wisely, and still may not spend it wisely, doesn't give someone else the right to gain an advantage from them, the poor people. They simply need to be taught how to spend their money wisely, and that effort to teach them should come from someone through an act of charity.

[Jeff K.]

I like what I have, I like my family and what they have. I strive to make sure my kids know more than I did at their age. I try to prepare them. But all in all, even with the horridly poor times I have lived through, I think I am pretty blessed. I hope my kids will likewise be blessed with the feeling of satisfaction regarding their temporal lives, and drive to develop their spiritual ones.

[mercyngrace]

I define social justice as making things right or as they should be in society, so if you returned money that came from poor people to those poor people, you would be putting it back in the hands of the people it belonged to, which would be the right thing to do, since those are the poor people and nobody needs that money any more than they, the poor people, do.

The fact that they didn't spend their money wisely, and still may not spend it wisely, doesn't give someone else the right to gain an advantage from them, the poor people. They simply need to be taught how to spend their money wisely, and that effort to teach them should come from someone through an act of charity.

Once you give your money in exchange for something it no longer belongs to you.

To receive it back again at the hand of a compassionate person is a blessing, not an entitlement.

Again, from D&C 56:

17 Wo unto you poor men, whose hearts are not broken, whose spirits are not contrite, and whose bellies are not satisfied, and whose hands are not stayed from laying hold upon other men

[Ahab]

Once you give your money in exchange for something it no longer belongs to you.

Nothing belongs to any of us, other than God, and our stewardship goals should be to see that we deal justly with our fellow man, at minimum, with mercy being the better way and the way that God actually commands us to be.

To receive it back again at the hand of a compassionate person is a blessing, not an entitlement.

God expects us to be merciful, and in fact he commands it, so if we are compassionate and kind in promoting the well being of any other person on this planet, then we are only doing what God expects and commands us to do in promoting the way we should be all of the time.

In other words, iff you deprive anyone of any good deed, then you are depriving that other person of something God expects you to give to them, as if they are entitled to that gift from you, otherwise you put yourself in the hot box and come under comdemnation from God for not being as you should be.

Again, from D&C 56:

17 Wo unto you poor men, whose hearts are not broken, whose spirits are not contrite, and whose bellies are not satisfied, and whose hands are not stayed from laying hold upon other men

[thesometimesaint]

Ahab:

I always find it interesting that we all plead for mercy while demanding justice for the other guy.

[ttribe]

You seem to know a lot about some things, mercyngrace, but I think you can still benefit from learning more about mercy and grace.

Oh.My.

[Ahab]

Oh.My.

Kinda soft, I thought.

Pretty soon I'll follow up with showing her an increase of my love for her while assuring her that I'm not one of her enemies.

[Jeff K.]

mercyngrace, on 30 July 2010 - 09:58 AM, said:

Once you give your money in exchange for something it no longer belongs to you.

Nothing belongs to any of us, other than God, and our stewardship goals should be to see that we deal justly with our fellow man, at minimum, with mercy being the better way and the way that God actually commands us to be.

Irrelevant passive aggressive poppycock.

You are developing talents by understanding and hence valuing that what you exchange no longer is yours, but somoene elses. You have sacrificed something for something else.

Quote

To receive it back again at the hand of a compassionate person is a blessing, not an entitlement.

God expects us to be merciful, and in fact he commands it, so if we are compassionate and kind in promoting the well being of any other person on this planet, then we are only doing what God expects and commands us to do in promoting the way we should be all of the time.

In other words, iff you deprive anyone of any good deed, then you are depriving that other person of something God expects you to give to them, as if they are entitled to that gift from you, otherwise you put yourself in the hot box and come under comdemnation from God for not being as you should be.

Again irrelevant. God expects us to be merciful, but not stupid. You do not work for something and then throw it away. That is the equivalent of burying your talent in the ground. What you do is help the other person learn the value of what they have done. When you value nothing, nothing is worth the effort.

Nor is it good to denigrate a blessing by stating you must do something. I think it would be more merciful more often than not to make the other person work for the item and thus value it rather than give it to them. You demean the other person when you do so.

Quote

Again, from D&C 56:

17 Wo unto you poor men, whose hearts are not broken, whose spirits are not contrite, and whose bellies are not satisfied, and whose hands are not stayed from laying hold upon other men

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

No argument from me on that point.

I define social justice as making things right or as they should be in society, so if you returned money that came from poor people to those poor people, you would be putting it back in the hands of the people it belonged to, which would be the right thing to do, since those are the poor people and nobody needs that money any more than they, the poor people, do.

Oh brother. This is flawed on so many levels. If poor people (or any other kind of people) give their money to some one else for a good or service, then it is no longer theirs and it in no way can be claimed to "belong to them". It can't be called the right thing to do, that would be stealing some one elses money. Which is the wrong thing to do.

The only time it is the right thing to do is if another person of their own free will gives it to another person with the right intent. If it is done with the wrong intent, then it is counted against them.

[ttribe]

Kinda soft, I thought.

Of course you did.

Pretty soon I'll follow up with showing her an increase of my love for her while assuring her that I'm not one of her enemies.

D&C 121:39

[Ahab]

Ahab:

I always find it interesting that we all plead for mercy while demanding justice for the other guy.

I usually plead for justice for all, first, and then when that fails, I plead for mercy for all.

Say it with me, now:

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one nation under God, with liberty and justice for all.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I usually plead for justice for all, first, and then when that fails, I plead for mercy for all.

Say it with me, now:

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one nation under God, with liberty and justice for all.

This doesn't flow. If justice fails how can you claim mercy for all?

Mercy is given only in the context of demanding Justice.

[Jeff K.]

Justice entails only giving people what they earn, no more no less. And if they don't work well, they earn less. That is just.

Mercy is never expected, as such, its value is for the humble alone.

[Ahab]

This doesn't flow. If justice fails how can you claim mercy for all?

I said I PLEAD for mercy for all, when my plead for justice for all doesn't work.

[changed]

Our realtor was also a realtor for President Hinckley (looking at temple cites) While driving around in a well-to-do neighborhood, president Hinckley told him