Is wealth a sin?

[Jeff K.]

Isn't there some scripture about how the rich and haughty will be brought low, and the poor and righteous will be exalted?

I'd be happy if people would just let me have what they're not really using, like a nice 2-acre lot next to my land that somebody has had up for auction, supposedly because they're trying to get some "money" for it. Why sell it for money when they could just give it away? They're not really using it, and it has just been sitting there for at least a few years now.

Note your use of the word "and" which creates the need for both aspects to be in play. Not just rich, but rich "and" haughty.

[ttribe]

Why sell it for money when they could just give it away? They're not really using it, and it has just been sitting there for at least a few years now.

I continue to be amazed.

[Ahab]

I continue to be amazed.

I think that's only because you've become so accustomed to people expecting to receive money for something before giving.

Try a whole new paradigm now, where people just give stuff away if they're not really using it, themselves, or if they are using it, because they can see that others could use it more than they need it.

For example, I have some apple trees on my property and when they bear fruit I actually give some apples away, and I won't even accept any money for them when people offer to give me money. And why do I do that, you may ask? Well, for one thing, because I really hate money, and for another thing, because I don't want anyone to think they can buy my charity with money.

I think it's time this world was turned upside down, and if I'm not the one who will do it, I'd like the one who will to just do it.

[Ahab]

Note your use of the word "and" which creates the need for both aspects to be in play. Not just rich, but rich "and" haughty.

Right, because I don't have any problem with people who are rich while sharing all that they have with others, equally.

[ttribe]

I think that's only because you've become so accustomed to people expecting to receive money for something before giving.

I think you're wrong.

Try a whole new paradigm now, where people just give stuff away if they're not really using it, themselves, or if they are using it, because they can see that others could use it more than they need it.

I do that all the time. You need to assume otherwise.

For example, I have some apple trees on my property and when they bear fruit I actually give some apples away, and I won't even accept any money for them when people offer to give me money. And why do I do that, you may ask? Well, for one thing, because I really hate money, and for another thing, because I don't want anyone to think they can buy my charity with money.

Apples are one thing.

I think it's time this world was turned upside down, and if I'm not the one who will do it, I'd like the one who will to just do it.

There's only One capable. Are you criticizing His time line?

[ttribe]

Right, because I don't have any problem with people who are rich while sharing all that they have with others, equally.

It's your definition of "equal" that creates the problem.

[Ahab]

And how would you clothe your family?

My wife can sew really well, and if I had enough land to grow cotton or raise sheep for wool we could make our own materials and she could sew them all together. And someone else could also help us with all of that, while we all shared in the resources together.

Build homes.

I know how to build a house, and if I had enough land to grow trees for logs or lumber with some kind of stone for a fireplace, and some ore to make some nails with, I could build our own home and homes for other people on the land, too, if some other people wanted to live on the land with us, as we all shared the resources together.

When land is scarce why should you have it and not someone else?

There is enough land on this planet for everyone, and all people need to do is share it.

How badly do you "want" the land? What would you do for it?

I'd do anything righteous to obtain it, just as I do now to the best of my abilities.

It appears you are not thinking these things through.

It appears that you don't realize how much I have thought about this.

[Ahab]

It's your definition of "equal" that creates the problem.

My idea of "equally" pertains to everyone owning everything, even though each person wouldn't use everything all by themselves.

This planet will someday belong to all who are righteous, in equal ownership rights with God, and each person living here will do what is good for everyone without any of the distinctions that we have between the rich and poor now.

Are you so wrapped up with how things are now that you can't see the future when things will be so much better?

I'm simply advocating that we start building that better world now, as well as we can, with the rich sharing more with the poor.

[ttribe]

My idea of "equally" pertains to everyone owning everything, even though each person wouldn't use everything all by themselves.

This planet will someday belong to all who are righteous, in equal ownership rights with God, and each person living here will do what is good for everyone without any of the distinctions that we have between the rich and poor now.

I realize that. I also realize that God will be the direct administrator of that system.

Are you so wrapped up with how things are now that you can't see the future when things will be so much better?

Just stop with the judgmental language.

I'm simply advocating that we start building that better world now, as well as we can, with the rich sharing more with the poor.

And, as a financial professional who deals with fraud, I'm suggesting that this is naive in the world we are currently assigned to live in.

[Ahab]

There's only One capable. Are you criticizing His time line?

There are many things we can do to help and build up Zion, right now. We don't have to wait for Him to come before we start.

And No, I'm not criticizing him or his time line. I just want him to hurry up and get here to help us clean up all of this mess.

[Ahab]

I realize that. I also realize that God will be the direct administrator of that system.

God IS the direct administrator of the program, and we've already received a LOT of instruction on how to build up Zion.

Just stop with the judgmental language.

Stop assuming I'm using judgmental language. I asked you a question because I'm trying to figure out why you aren't on board with me.

And, as a financial professional who deals with fraud, I'm suggesting that this is naive in the world we are currently assigned to live in.

What do you think there is in this world that prevents the rich sharing a lot more with the poor, right now, so much that the poor would rise to the same level as the rich while they all shared in everything together?

[ttribe]

God IS the direct administrator of the program, and we've already received a LOT of instruction on how to build up Zion.

And if it comes through the duly appointed Prophet and Apostles, I will be willing to give it consideration.

Stop assuming I'm using judgmental language. I asked you a question because I'm trying to figure out why you aren't on board with me.

I'm cautious.

What do you think there is in this world that prevents the rich sharing a lot more with the poor, right now, so much that the poor would rise to the same level as the rich while they all shared in everything together?

Theft, fraud, jealousy, dishonesty, just to name a few.

[Ahab]

And if it comes through the duly appointed Prophet and Apostles, I will be willing to give it consideration.

As I said, we've already been told a LOT about that by God, and yes by them too.

Theft, fraud, jealousy, dishonesty, just to name a few.

If you'll think about it a little bit more, I think you'll see that none of those things actually prevents the rich from sharing a lot more with the poor right now, even if the rich shared so much with the poor that the rich and poor would then be on equal terms while they all shared in everything together.

And actually, I'm sure there would be a lot less theft and fraud and jealousy and dishonesty if the rich just gave those who are poor what it would take for all of them to be considered their equals.

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 23 July 2010 - 08:49 AM, said:

And how would you clothe your family?

My wife can sew really well, and if I had enough land to grow cotton or raise sheep for wool we could make our own materials and she could sew them all together. And someone else could also help us with all of that, while we all shared in the resources together.

Yes and you missed the point completely. Why do you think you deserve it and someone else doesn't?

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Build homes.

I know how to build a house, and if I had enough land to grow trees for logs or lumber with some kind of stone for a fireplace, and some ore to make some nails with, I could build our own home and homes for other people on the land, too, if some other people wanted to live on the land with us, as we all shared the resources together.

Whose land will you take? Which forest will you and a million like you clearcut?

The last time civilization existed as you described it, was in a neandertal period when each family established and built their own shelters and food. Specialization came about when surplus was sufficient. That specialization led to the education of things like building houses (instead of living in tents), knowledge of growing foods efficiently irrigation systems.

Had you thought this through clearly you would have known that. You would have traced civilizations development and not made some kind of pie in the sky, "I wish I could have property given to me to do stuff" fantasy.

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When land is scarce why should you have it and not someone else?

There is enough land on this planet for everyone, and all people need to do is share it.

They are practically giving it away in the Sahara desert. Feel free to go. I understand parts of Siberia are up for grabs too. Arable land, and "land" are two different things.

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How badly do you "want" the land? What would you do for it?

I'd do anything righteous to obtain it, just as I do now to the best of my abilities.

And there is the rub, how badly "you" want it versus someeone else. How do we decide, your say so? Forgive me but given your lack of forethought your sayso is not a good guage. Someone elses say so? How would we determine your desire for land against someone elses for the same land? Who would sacrifice more to use it most efficienctly?

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It appears you are not thinking these things through.

It appears that you don't realize how much I have thought about this.

Your comments so far reflect a shallowness in the discussion. I would be surprised at how you can come to your conclusions while not being able to think through the ramifications

[Jeff K.]

If you give something away, it is generally little valued. But if you work for something, you value it more since it reflects your want more keenly than merely "getting it" for nothing.

[ttribe]

As I said, we've already been told a LOT about that by God, and yes by them too.

Yes, and yet if we follow the example and teachings of the current Prophets and Apostles, we are not running right out to recreate the United Order.

If you'll think about it a little bit more, I think you'll see that none of those things actually prevents the rich from sharing a lot more with the poor right now, even if the rich shared so much with the poor that the rich and poor would then be on equal terms while they all shared in everything together.

And actually, I'm sure there would be a lot less theft and fraud and jealousy and dishonesty if the rich just gave those who are poor what it would take for all of them to be considered their equals.

This is just plain naive. I've dealt with people who commit fraud, steal, etc. Poverty is rarely their motivating factor.

[Ahab]

If you give something away, it is generally little valued. But if you work for something, you value it more since it reflects your want more keenly than merely "getting it" for nothing.

I'm fine with the idea of working for something, especially when it's something that I really want, but if money is used as the basis for an exchange in this world, and I can't print up my own money, I'm limited to only what I can do for myself and what others will give to me, and I've found that more often than not people try very hard to give me as little money as possible.

Working hard doesn't necessarily equate to making any money in this world, you know. I think most of the hardest working people are the poorest of people, financially, while most of the financially rich have the really cushy jobs, if they even have an actual "job".

[Jeff K.]

Wrong. If you wish to print your own money, go ahead (its called an IOU) it would just be worthless. Your problem, and it is your problem, you want something for nothing with the promise that you will do something later, I would be like the foolish servant with the talents.

Money is merely a tool measurement. If you cannot provide a tool by which to measure your willingness to work the land, then I submit you haven't thought it through, at all.

[Ahab]

Yes, and yet if we follow the example and teachings of the current Prophets and Apostles, we are not running right out to recreate the United Order.

I think we should be creating something a lot like it, though, based on living the laws of charity and consecration, even with all of our offerings being totaly voluntarily.

This is just plain naive. I've dealt with people who commit fraud, steal, etc. Poverty is rarely their motivating factor.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think rich people steal as much as the poor, because the rich can just buy whatever they want with their money. I'm not saying I don't think there aren't any rich people who steal, though. I just think the rich steal a lot less than the poor, and I think the poor steal mainly because they don't have enough money to buy what they need, or want.

[ttribe]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think rich people steal as much as the poor, because the rich can just buy whatever they want with their money. I'm not saying I don't think there aren't any rich people who steal, though. I just think the rich steal a lot less than the poor, and I think the poor steal mainly because they don't have enough money to buy what they need, or want.

In terms of rate of occurrence, you may be correct that theft occurs more frequently amongst the poor. In terms of size of theft, you'd be completely wrong. You are even more wrong when it comes to fraud.

[Ahab]

If you cannot provide a tool by which to measure your willingness to work the land, then I submit you haven't thought it through, at all.

My work speaks for itself, and I believe it is very high quality work. The fact that other people pay me very little if any money for the work I do for them doesn't mean I don't do high quality work. In general, people try to pay as little money as possible, and I am okay with people paying me no money at all for the work that I do for them. I'd just like to not to have to struggle to make some money for other people who want nothing but money for the work they offer to me.

I'm willing to give charitably in all of my offerings to others, but most people in the world will not reciprocate and instead want nothing but cold hard cash.

[Jeff K.]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think rich people steal as much as the poor, because the rich can just buy whatever they want with their money. I'm not saying I don't think there aren't any rich people who steal, though. I just think the rich steal a lot less than the poor, and I think the poor steal mainly because they don't have enough money to buy what they need, or want.

I think it is ridiculous to presume poor or rich steal more or less based upon their position or class in society. I know rich men who have committed fraud and poor. And it is rarely poverty for either.

I think we should be creating something a lot like it, though, based on living the laws of charity and consecration, even with all of our offerings being totaly voluntarily.

Communes have been tried, they have almost all failed with the general result of on perons hoarding or controlling the commune. They are also inefficient and tend to make those in them poorer than they were before coming to the commune.

[ttribe]

Communes have been tried, they have almost all failed with the general result of on perons hoarding or controlling the commune. They are also inefficient and tend to make those in them poorer than they were before coming to the commune.

Agreed. For the third time I say - "It's a Utopian vision and in the absence of direct Divine administration it devolves into a degenerate system in which force is used to limit freedoms. That is what makes me fearful when a mortal begins advocating such ideas."

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 23 July 2010 - 11:47 AM, said:

If you cannot provide a tool by which to measure your willingness to work the land, then I submit you haven't thought it through, at all.

My work speaks for itself, and I believe it is very high quality work. The fact that other people pay me very little if any money for the work I do for them doesn't mean I don't do high quality work. In general, people try to pay as little money as possible, and I am okay with people paying me no money at all for the work that I do for them. I'd just like to not to have to struggle to make some money for other people who want nothing but money for the work they offer to me.

I'm willing to give charitably in all of my offerings to others, but most people in the world will not reciprocate and instead want nothing but cold hard cash.

You haven't done any work, so it says nothing.

The fact that other people pay you little money generally means your work, the quality of your work is not exceptional, indeed it is common. You or your ego may "think" that your work is exceptional, but your position is the rest of the world is mad, or crazy for not seeing your work as being exceptional. Apparently its not nearly as exceptional as you think it is. Your hubris creates a fantasy land.

As to why people pay as little as possible. It is because they are saving their money for the exceptional work they would pay extra for. To the rest of the world, who judge your work, which speaks for itself, your work is saying "not that good".

I'd just like to not to have to struggle to make some money for other people who want nothing but money for the work they offer to me.

The tune of many a rank amateur carpentar. I could introduce you to some people in Orange County CA, an expensive place to live, who own their own carpentry business. They do excellent work, I have seen it. They struggle too, but their work is judged exceptional and so people pay an exceptional price because that price measures what their clients want, versus your view that somehow your clients should want your work more.

I'm willing to give charitably in all of my offerings to others, but most people in the world will not reciprocate and instead want nothing but cold hard cash

Two points you seem to be blind to.

1- if you give charitably and expect reciprocations, then its not charity, it is barter or money based.

2- you seem to think the lack of money will make what you produce more valuable. The lack of a yardstick does not make a man taller.

[Ahab]

In terms of rate of occurrence, you may be correct that theft occurs more frequently amongst the poor. In terms of size of theft, you'd be completely wrong. You are even more wrong when it comes to fraud.

So you're saying the rich steal from the rich, as well as from the poor? I can see how that is true, but I think the rich who steal from those who are richer probably think of themselves as poor when compared to those who are richer than they are.

Wtih fraud, I don't think most are pretending to be really poor people, because really poor people have no riches, or at least no material riches, of any monetary value, or at least very little of it.