Is wealth a sin?

[Ahab]

Key words - "in that case."

Precedent, baby. That's what that is, and it's based on a judgment from someone who always operates under the same principles.

If you're interested in trying to go against precedent, though, feel free to make your case, and who knows, maybe in your case he'll make an exception and in the process change the laws upon which his blessings are predicated.

[Ahab]

A retraction? Why? And of what?

Just wondering. If you ever do offer a retraction on what you said, you'll know why, and for what.

[ttribe]

Precedent, baby. That's what that is, and it's based on a judgment from someone who always operates under the same principles.

And who has both commanded to kill and not to kill. Circumstances and context matter; and rigid interpretation of the scriptures has been the path to many a downfall.

If you're interested in trying to go against precedent, though, feel free to make your case, and who knows, maybe in your case he'll make an exception and in the process change the laws upon which his blessings are predicated.

Please feel free to show me where I suggested such a thing.

[Ahab]

And who has both commanded to kill and not to kill. Rigid interpretation of the scriptures has been the path to many a downfall.

In certain cases, God has authorized us to kill, and in certain other cases, God has commanded that we should not kill.

Once you know the paramaters upon which his laws are predicated, you'll then know what you should do in all cases, depending on the circumstances involved.

Please feel free to show me where I suggested such a thing.

I said "If", which are two little letters which have a certain and specific meaning.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Just wondering. If you ever do offer a retraction on what you said, you'll know why, and for what.

You totally lost me. Spell it out.

[mercyngrace]

This is great. I think one other thing we can learn here is the intent of the heart.

Obviously intent is PART of it. But notice the account doesn't say the widow is giving with the right heart. In fact, there is no assessment of her intent offered. The Lord simply says that she "did cast in all that she had, even all her living".

She was consecrating everything while other, much wealthier and better versed, worshipers held back part and gave only a token of their abundance. They held back and bought nice clothes. They held back and received the praise of men, reserving for themselves seats in the uppermost rooms. They proclaimed their righteousness with public salutations while taking advantage of others and using their legalistic interpretation of religion to justify their self-centeredness.

Pretty harsh condemnation.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Obviously intent is PART of it. But notice the account doesn't say the widow is giving with the right heart. In fact, there is no assessment of her intent offered. The Lord simply says that she "did cast in all that she had, even all her living".

She was consecrating everything while other, much wealthier and better versed, worshipers held back part and gave only a token of their abundance. They held back and bought nice clothes. They held back and received the praise of men, reserving for themselves seats in the uppermost rooms. They proclaimed their righteousness with public salutations while taking advantage of others and using their legalistic interpretation of religion to justify their self-centeredness.

Pretty harsh condemnation.

What is the practicle application for this.

[ttribe]

In certain cases, God has authorized us to kill, and in certain other cases, God has commanded that we should not kill.

Oh boy...it was an example; it wasn't meant to result in a dissection of the matter.

Once you know the paramaters upon which his laws are predicated, you'll then know what you should do in all cases, depending on the circumstances involved.

Is this a general statement, or do you really think that I need such schooling from you?

I said "If", which are two little letters which have a certain and specific meaning.

Unreal.

[Ahab]

Oh boy...it was an example; it wasn't meant to result in a dissection of the matter.

Too analytical for you, huh. Nevermind, then. I thought you wanted to get into the details involved in my thoughts.

Is this a general statement, or do you really think that I need such schooling from you?

If you already know what I was telling you, you could just say: I already know that, because I've already learned that.

Based on what you said I couldn't tell if you already knew that or not, so I just threw it out there just in case you didn't know it.

Unreal.

Smile. You're on God's candid camera.

[ttribe]

Too analytical for you, huh. Nevermind, then. I thought you wanted to get into the details involved in my thoughts.

Yeah...us forensic accountants, we're just not that analytical.

If you already know what I was telling you, you could just say: I already know that, because I've already learned that.

Based on what you said I couldn't tell if you already knew that or not, so I just threw it out there just in case you didn't know it.

I'm curious where you received the commission to go out on the Internet and assume you are the wisest participant.

Smile. You're on God's candid camera.

Were you trying to be funny the first time, or trying to squirm out of this now?

[mercyngrace]

What is the practicle application for this.

The practical application is given in this talk by President Kimball, And the Lord Called His People Zion.

Basic points include:

First is love. The measure of our love for our fellowman and, in a large sense, the measure of our love for the Lord, is what we do for one another and for the poor and distressed.

Second is service. To serve is to humble oneself, to succor those in need of succor, and to impart of one

[ttribe]

Where I think we fail is when we who are able to provide for ourselves pass judgment on those who aren't and justify our selfishness based on their inability to meet their own temporal needs. We excuse our refusal to give more because "they ought to be self-reliant" or "their family should take care of them first" or worse "They're just lazy, they don't deserve my help. They need to learn to work!" Of course, we know what King Benjamin said about blaming the beggar for his circumstance.

And then sometimes, we just like our stuff and so we look at what we're giving and we say "That's good enough."

On the flip-side, there is much failure in those who long jealously for the riches of others and unrighteously judge those who might have much by saying "they aren't giving enough away."

[Ahab]

Yeah...us forensic accountants, we're just not that analytical.

I'm a forensic accountant, too, on occasions, and I actually enjoy being analytical and dissecting issues, at least sometimes.

You said that what you said wasn't meant to result in a dissection of the matter, though, which gave me the impression I was being too analytical for you, on that occasion.

I'm curious where you received the commission to go out on the Internet and assume you are the wisest participant.

I'm curious where you received the commission to ask such stupid questions?

Are you trying to upset me, or does that attitude just come naturally for you?

Were you trying to be funny the first time, or trying to squirm out of this now?

You said to me:

"Please feel free to show me where I suggested such a thing."

... while referring to something that I didn't say you suggested.

Unreal, indeed.

[mercyngrace]

On the flip-side, there is much failure in those who long jealously for the riches of others and unrighteously judge those who might have much by saying "they aren't giving enough away."

I'm sure there is. Fortunately, that's not a problem I've ever had. I grew up poor but didn't know it and as an adult, I've always had enough or enough to share.

PS I'm getting the feeling that my posts must sound preachy which isn't my intent. I think it's in our nature to feel strongly about the issues we personally struggle with or have dealt with. As I look back over my own life, I recognize now the good I could have done with money I wasted and I lament that.

[Ahab]

On the flip-side, there is much failure in those who long jealously for the riches of others and unrighteously judge those who might have much by saying "they aren't giving enough away."

That wouldn't be a problem if things were more fairly divided among everybody.

Those who have much SHOULD give to those who don't have as much, and I think it's justified when the poor are upset with those who are too selfish to share what they have as fairly as possible.

Instead of thinking God is going to be upset with the poor for noticing the rich have more than their fair share, try instead to think that God also notices that the rich have more than their fair share and that God is going to call the rich to account for not sharing as much as they should have shared.

[ttribe]

I'm sure there is. Fortunately, that's not a problem I've ever had. I grew up poor but didn't know it and as an adult, I've always had enough or enough to share.

PS I'm getting the feeling that my posts must sound preachy which isn't my intent. I think it's in our nature to feel strongly about the issues we personally struggle with or have dealt with. As I look back over my own life, I recognize now the good I could have done with money I wasted and I lament that.

I had an experience while in grad school where the prevailing attitude (indeed from the pulpit) in a ward in which I resided was that the rich were sinners by virtue of their riches. I found the notion wrong-headed and that it seemed to be rooted in unrighteous principles, but rationalized using the scriptures.

BTW, lest there be confusion and the ascription of improper motive, I grew up in less than ideal financial circumstances.

[mercyngrace]

Those who have much SHOULD give to those who don't have as much, and I think it's justified when the poor are upset with those who are too selfish to share what they have as fairly as possible.

This is where we part company, Ahab.

From President Benson's amazing discourse "Beware of Pride":

Pride is a sin that can readily be seen in others but is rarely admitted in ourselves. Most of us consider pride to be a sin of those on the top, such as the rich and the learned, looking down at the rest of us. (See 2 Ne. 9:42.) There is, however, a far more common ailment among us

[ttribe]

Those who have much SHOULD give to those who don't have as much, and I think it's justified when the poor are upset with those who are too selfish to share what they have as fairly as possible.

Try - Scripture Link

Instead of thinking God is going to be upset with the poor for noticing the rich have more than their fair share, try instead to think that God also notices that the rich have more than their fair share and that God is going to call the rich to account for not sharing as much as they should have shared.

I'm really having a hard time with your habit of trying to tell me how to think.

I won't even address your self-righteous and rude comments to me in your post just previous to this one.

[ttribe]

This is where we part company, Ahab.

From President Benson's amazing discourse "Beware of Pride":

Excellent quote. Thank you for your levelheadedness MNG.

[mercyngrace]

I had an experience while in grad school where the prevailing attitude (indeed from the pulpit) in a ward in which I resided was that the rich were sinners by virtue of their riches. I found the notion wrong-headed and that it seemed to be rooted in unrighteous principles, but rationalized using the scriptures.

BTW, lest there be confusion and the ascription of improper motive, I grew up in less than ideal financial circumstances.

There is no more justification for covetousness and envy that their is for selfishness and greed. I wholeheartedly agree.

tttribe, I try not to judge anyone's motives and I ask the same in return.

[ttribe]

There is no more justification for covetousness and envy that their is for selfishness and greed. I wholeheartedly agree.

tttribe, I try not to judge anyone's motives and I ask the same in return.

'Tis wise.

[Ahab]

This is where we part company, Ahab.

From President Benson's amazing discourse "Beware of Pride":

I think we agree more than you realize, but if not, I'd like to know what part of what I said you don't agree with.

I said this:

Those who have much SHOULD give to those who don't have as much, and I think it's justified when the poor are upset with those who are too selfish to share what they have as fairly as possible.

Do you disagree with the first part, or with the second part of what I said?

I can't imagine it being the first part, based on how well I think I know you, so if it's the second part of what I said that you don't agree with, why don't you agree?... and please tell me in your own words.

Are you telling me you don't empathize with poor people who see how the rich spend their money while feeling upset, or hurt, because it looks like the rich don't seem to care about helping them to enjoy all that the rich can enjoy?

It's not a feeling of unity that poor people feel when seeing the rich people spend so much money while they are financially struggling. They feel ostracized, and excluded, from being able to enjoy all the good things the rich can enjoy, and it's not always about expecting the rich to give the poor people some money, but to just include them in their parties and activities and what not.

Not all poor people are blind, you know. They can see what is going on, as rich people spend their money while not seeming to care about the poor people, and I can see how it can justifiably upset them, or cause them to feel hurt. Can't you feel that?

[Ahab]

Try - Scripture Link

I'm not greedy, and I work as hard as I can for what I want to have in this life.

Still, though, it would be nice if other people with more than I do would help me to have as much as they do in this life.

I'm really having a hard time with your habit of trying to tell me how to think.

I won't even address your self-righteous and rude comments to me in your post just previous to this one.

When I do that, I'm trying to suggest a thought to your mind to help you see what I think, usually in contrast to what I think you are thinking based on what you have told me.

I think of it as offering you a platter of thoughts to choose from, while recommending that you pick a certain one.

If it's my openness in communicating with you that you have a problem with, as I just let it all lay out there without any pretense, perhaps someday you'll try to understand me and why I do what I say, or do.

And btw, in my book, the person who calls another person self-righteous or rude is the person who needs to watch out.

[ttribe]

And btw, in my book, the person who calls another person self-righteous or rude is the person who needs to watch out.

Naturally.

[mercyngrace]

Are you telling me you don't empathize with poor people who see how the rich spend their money while feeling upset, or hurt, because it looks like the rich don't seem to care about helping them to enjoy all that the rich can enjoy?

Whether or not I can empathize is irrelevant. I can also empathize with the frustrated self-reliant person who sees the intentional abuse of charities and welfare programs or who is profoundly put out at the ingratitude expressed by some who benefit from other people's money and goodwill.

Being able to empathize with ungodly feelings doesn't make those feelings right.

Covetousness, jealousy, and envy are just as wrong as selfishness and greed and all of those feelings undermine our ability to create Zion.

edit: Withholding forgiveness from those who have wronged us is the greater sin.