Is wealth a sin?

[Walden]

When contemplating the wealth and sin question, I think of that scene in the movie Schindler's List, towards the end, when Oskar Schindler starts inventorying his expensive possesions (gold watch, fancy jewelry, luxury automobile, etc.) and realizes how many lives he might have saved had he used that wealth to buy the freedom of more jews. Schindler is anguished and tormented by the thought that he could have done so much more with his wealth.

If there is a heaven, I imagine this scenario when I think of a rich man entering the kingdom of heaven.

Just my thought on the topic.

[Ahab]

Ultimately (as in the afterlife), all who serve will receive the same reward (thus Christ's parable), but that does not mean (at all) that all receive the same rewards in the midst of service. Primarily, because it is not necessary. For example, I currently serve as a clerk in a bishopric. My calling does not require the time commitment that is required of the Bishop. I see how he is blessed for his service and how he is truly physically sustained. I, however, require no such "equal" reward insomuch as my service does not require the same sacrifice. Thus, there is no equality (as you've defined the term), but we have both received exactly what we needed and deserved.

I'm figuring all of those variables into my imagined scenario for how we could all do things better in this world, too, though.

Even if we shared all things equally on this planet, we still would receive different stewardships and different resources to accomplish our work, because we wouldn't all want to do the same exact thing and we would need particular resources to do what we all did, for the collective. In the end, though, all of the fruits of our labors would be shared equally, regardless of who provided for them, as long as we all did our equal share in providing for the collective.

For example, I'd like to be a farmer, with lots of land for food and trees (including fruit trees and trees for lumber) and other plants to make things look pretty both on the farm and all over the world, and with a nice farm house to live in somewhere on the property. If other people wanted to farm, they could also work on the same farm, and they could also have their own farm house, with neither of ours considered to be the "master" house because we would have everything in common. Not everyone on the planet would want to do farm work, though, so different people would do different things, with me and others on my farm providing the things we produce on the farm while everyone else also shares their products, and without any need for money. We'd just need some sort of inventory control system, to manage ALL of the resources, and some people who were willing to transport things around on the planet. Again, all without any need for money, with people just working while sharing their products.

It's a beautiful vision that I'd love to share with everyone on this planet, but very few people seem to be able to see it.

[Ahab]

But he didn't share the business rewards equally with his employees, did he? Why is that?

He wasn't that advanced, yet. So, yeah, the movie isn't a perfect example, although it is a very good one.

The husband/father and wife/mother basically "adopted" someone who wasn't originally a part of their family, though, and they made him a part of their family, while providing a much better life for him than he otherwise would have had without them, with the two children also doing their part to accept him into the family.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

In 'The Blind Side' that family all lived in the same house, so they all had that in common, and they all received the same benefits from the father who owned those Taco Bell's, and what not. You could argue that those businesses were only in the father's "NAME", or perhaps in the "NAME" of both the Father and the Son, er, excuse me, the father and his wife, but they all got to share in all of the blessings of those businesses, even though the father was the one who provided all of that for all of them.

This is a mis-represnetation of what happened on the blind side. They did not share in the business of the father and his wife. They ran the business and made choices to be charitable to Micahel Oher. They did open their house to him, but they did not all gather around and say "we have 1 million dollars" and then divey it up into euqal portions. Currently Michael is living in his own house that the Tuohy's did not pay for. And I certainly don't want to take away what the Tuohy's did do for Michael it is a mondern day amazing story.

Remember that charity is the pure love of Christ and it encompasses much more than giving material things to people.

[ttribe]

It's a beautiful vision that I'd love to share with everyone on this planet, but very few people seem to be able to see it.

It's a Utopian vision and in the absence of direct Divine administration it devolves into a degenerate system in which force is used to limit freedoms. That is what makes me fearful when a mortal begins advocating such ideas.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

He wasn't that advanced, yet. So, yeah, the movie isn't a perfect example, although it is a very good one.

The husband/father and wife/mother basically "adopted" someone who wasn't originally a part of their family, though, and they made him a part of their family, while providing a much better life for him than he otherwise would have had without them, with the two children also doing their part to accept him into the family.

Hey, go open a business and try to do it your way and tell me how well you succeed at it.

[ttribe]

He wasn't that advanced, yet.

I don't think that's the correct answer.

[Ahab]

This is a mis-represnetation of what happened on the blind side. They did not share in the business of the father and his wife.

In a very big way, they actually did, even though they didn't divide up all of the money and other resources from the business and say something like: Here, this is your part, and here, this is my part, etc. The businesses generated an income and when anyone needed anything the father or mother would go out and buy it, including a new truck for the boy they basically adopted.

Currently Michael is living in his own house that the Tuohy's did not pay for. And I certainly don't want to take away what the Tuohy's did do for Michael it is a mondern day amazing story.

They helped him get to the point where he could buy his own house, though. Everything they did for him made it possible for him to become self-sufficient, and he's still considered to be a part of that family.

Remember that charity is the pure love of Christ and it encompasses much more than giving material things to people.

I know. It also about helping people to feel united, together, as one body of people, with everyone looking out for each other and helping each other to be successful.

Now think of that and compare that to how there are still rich/poor distinctions in the Church, and you'll see how far we have left to go.

[Ahab]

Hey, go open a business and try to do it your way and tell me how well you succeed at it.

My way involves getting together with other people who also want to get involved in the same business I want to get involved in while we all share in both the costs and the profits together. Hence, I need other people to join with me in something I'd like to get involved in, which they also want to get involved in.

Are you interested in getting involved in farming? That's the only business I really want to be involved in.

If so, save up your money and we'll go buy a lot of land to get started, or let me know if you already have a lot of land that we could farm, together.

[LeSellers]

Are you interested in getting involved in farming? That's the only business I really want to be involved in.

If so, save up your money and we'll go buy a lot of land to get started, or let me know if you already have a lot of land that we could farm, together.

You have no idea what it takes.

Lehi

[ttribe]

I see that some who have posted in this thread have a misunderstanding of basic economics.

Given all that has transpired since then, this statement needs to be reiterated again.

[Ahab]

It's a Utopian vision and in the absence of direct Divine administration it devolves into a degenerate system in which force is used to limit freedoms. That is what makes me fearful when a mortal begins advocating such ideas.

I'm not talking about leaving God out of the picture, and I'm not talking about using any kind of force, either.

I have God to help me with everything I do and want to do, and I want to get involved with other people who also have God to help them with everything they do and want to do, too, as we all do everything we do, together, to equally share in all of the costs as well as all the rewards of what we are engaged in.

If you'd rather opt out, you do have that choice, and I'm not interested in trying to twist your arm to make you want to join with me.

[ttribe]

I'm not talking about leaving God out of the picture, and I'm not talking about using any kind of force, either.

I have God to help me with everything I do and want to do, and I want to get involved with other people who also have God to help them with everything they do and want to do, too, as we all do everything we do, together, to equally share in all of the costs as well as all the rewards of what we are engaged in.

Perhaps I wasn't clear - unless there is DIRECT DIVINE involvement. You are NOT His oracle on this matter, and the mere intimation of such is worrisome.

If you'd rather opt out, you do have that choice, and I'm not interested in trying to twist your arm to make you want to join with me.

I don't think anyone should be trying to do this outside the proper order of things.

[Ahab]

Given all that has transpired since then, this statement needs to be reiterated again.

There are the ways things are done now, and there is also a better way to do things that we haven't really started exploring.

Imagine a perfect world with people doing various things to provide either good services or good products to the masses.

Now imagine what your part would be in it, and what you imagine everyone else would be doing to make it a perfect world.

[ttribe]

There are the ways things are done now, and there is also a better way to do things that we haven't really started exploring.

Imagine a perfect world with people doing various things to provide either good services or good products to the masses.

Now imagine what your part would be in it, and what you imagine everyone else would be doing to make it a perfect world.

Reiterating what I've already said - "It's a Utopian vision and in the absence of direct Divine administration it devolves into a degenerate system in which force is used to limit freedoms. That is what makes me fearful when a mortal begins advocating such ideas."

[Jeff K.]

Well said

[Ahab]

Perhaps I wasn't clear - unless there is DIRECT DIVINE involvement. You are NOT His oracle on this matter, and the mere intimation of such is worrisome.

I don't think anyone should be trying to do this outside the proper order of things.

People start businesses all the time. Are you saying nobody should be doing any of that without a commandment from God?

If not, then isn't it the best policy to use the best policies when starting a business, whehter it is for profit or for non-profit?

I'm not advocating that we start a new "church" here.

I'm talking about members of THE Church getting together to do soemthing that will benefit everyone on this planet, and as I've mentioned repeatedly, I'm totally sick of money and am not interested in doing something for the purpose of making money, because that's not what we really need in this world. What we need are good products, and good services, for free.

[ttribe]

People start businesses all the time. Are you saying nobody should be doing any of that without a commandment from God?

You keep moving the goalposts to suit your argument.

If not, then isn't it the best policy to use the best policies when starting a business, whehter it is for profit or for non-profit?

Yes. And your argument demonstrates a wholesale lack of understanding of the system in which said "business" will have to operate.

I'm not advocating that we start a new "church" here.

Are you sure about that?

I'm talking about members of THE Church getting together to do soemthing that will benefit everyone on this planet, and as I've mentioned repeatedly, I'm totally sick of money and am not interested in doing something for the purpose of making money, because that's not what we really need in this world. What we need are good products, and good services, for free.

Again - outside of the duly ordained and organized order of things, no one should be making any such attempt.

[Ahab]

You keep moving the goalposts to suit your argument.

It may seem that way to you, but I'm really not. I'm just having a little trouble describing what I envision to you, and I'm also not really sure about how to go about making what I envision a reality, in my current circumstances.

Yes. And your argument demonstrates a wholesale lack of understanding of the system in which said "business" will have to operate.

I'm pretty sure any business (or organization or whatever you want to call it) that offered good things for FREE would do pretty well in this world, and in the next world. Why pay for something when you can get something as good, or maybe better, for FREE ?

Are you sure about that?

Yes.

Again - outside of the duly ordained and organized order of things, no one should be making any such attempt.

To do what? What do you think I'm doing? I'd like to see if you correctly understand what I'm saying.

I'm simply advocating that we provide good services and good products for people, to whatever extent we're able, without any need for the people who receive them to pay any money.

The laborer in Zion will labor for Zion, and if we labor for money we'll perish.

[Pahoran]

Yes. Wealth is a sin.

But there is a solution. You can repent of your sins and give up your wealth.

Send it to me. I'll put it to good use!

Regards,

Pahoran

[thesometimesaint]

Pahoran:

That would make me the poorer. Poverty is not a sin but get rid of it as fast as you can.

[LeSellers]

I'm ... having a little trouble describing what I envision to you, and I'm also not really sure about how to go about making what I envision a reality, in my current circumstances.

"In [your] circumstances" means you have no money (which you have stated previously).

The problem you refuse to see is that money is not a problem at all, it's not having money that is the problem.

You can't do any of the things you'd like to do because it takes money (which is really just the way we measure how happy the person who has it has made other people) to do the thing you want to do. People who have no money have not made other people happy in the past, so it is not very likely that they will make people happy in the future.

I'm pretty sure any business (or organization or whatever you want to call it) that offered good things for FREE would do pretty well in this world, and in the next world. Why pay for something when you can get something as good, or maybe better, for FREE ?

It might do well at giving things away, but it would not do well for very long. You see, in order to have the things to give others, it has to make or buy them first. Even if it makes such things, it cannot do so unless it buys the components (including labor) for those things.

What do you think I'm doing?

Smoking a pipe and dreaming. (Well, maybe there's no pipe.)

I'm simply advocating that we provide good services and good products for people, to whatever extent we're able, without any need for the people who receive them to pay any money.

Which cannot possibly exist as long as there are things people want but which do not freely exist in nature in the quantity people want them. Since that is never going to be the case (until Christ returns), we are stuck with money (or something that fills the same roll).

The laborer in Zion will labor for Zion, and if we labor for money we'll perish.

If you don't, you will perish. When Christ returns and establishes Zion, I'm right there with you. But until then, it takes money to pay tithing so we can build Temples, chapels, and print missionary tracts. The laborer in Zion who fails to work for money will not build Zion as things stand today, and there is nothing at all you, I, and all the rest of the Saints can do about it.

Lehi

[Ahab]

"In [your] circumstances" means you have no money (which you have stated previously).

I actually have some money, just not very much of it. That's really beside the point, though, because in a world where money wasn't necessary that wouldn't be a problem now, would it.

The problem you refuse to see is that money is not a problem at all, it's not having money that is the problem.

No, the problem is that most people in this world want some money from me before they will allow me to have what I want.

Like land, for example, which I believe God put here for all of us to share.

Why should I have to give anybody money for land, even for land that nobody is really using? Who made that rule up?

If I had enough land, with some source of water either from a well or a stream or a river, I could grow all kinds of good things for myself and my family and many other people on his planet, which I would be willing to share without charging anyone any money. I could grow food, including fruits and vegetables and nuts and even some livestock for meat, as well as trees for firewood and lumber for building materials. The land would preferably also include some kind of stones for building materials, and maybe even some ores to make metals with. I could make and grow all kinds of good things.

But, NO! Somebody out there has this rule about needing to have money to "buy" land, as if it's supposed to be something I have to "buy". Sheesh. What a racket! Who's in charge of making dumb rules, like that one?

You can't do any of the things you'd like to do because it takes money ... to do the thing you want to do. People who have no money have not made other people happy in the past, so it is not very likely that they will make people happy in the future.

I have a little money, and I also have a little land, so I guess that means I have made at least some people happy, to some extent. If I had some more land, I could probably make some more people happy, but how am I supposed to get some more land? Are you willing to give me some money to buy some more land with, or just some more land? If you have some of either to spare, what would I need to do to influence you to give some of it to me?

You could also just be nice, you know. Why give something only to people who please you? God doesn't seem to work that way.

[Jeff K.]

Yes, I have no money, but in a world where money wasn't necessary that wouldn't be a problem now, would it.

There is a strong inconsistency here. Money has no intrinsic value beyond helping us measure the degree we want something. That is all money does, nothing more.

If "money" did not exist then we would have a less efficient manner by which we measure our wants. Barter for instance is very inefficient, it wastes more resources than money because there is always excess on one side and deficiency on the other, which means greater waste. Money takes the place of barter and is more accurate when outlining how much we are willing to trade for an item, be it hours of work or assets controlled.

No, the problem is that most people in this world want some money from me before they will allow me to have what I want.

Like land, for example, which I believe God put here for all of us to share.

That would seem to be countered by the Lord allowing a land of inheritance, which means it was not for everyone, only a few.

If I had enough land, I could grow all kinds of good things for myself and my family and many other people on his planet, which I would be willing to share without charging anyone any money. I could grow food, including fruits and vegetables and nuts and even some livestock for meat, as well as trees for firewood and lumber for building materials. The land would preferably also include some kind of stones for building materials, and maybe even some ores to make metals with. I could make and grow all kinds of good things.

And how would you clothe your family? Build homes. When land is scarce why should you have it and not someone else? How badly do you "want" the land? What would you do for it?

It appears you are not thinking these things through.

[Ahab]

Pahoran:

That would make me the poorer. Poverty is not a sin but get rid of it as fast as you can.

Isn't there some scripture about how the rich and haughty will be brought low, and the poor and righteous will be exalted?

I'd be happy if people would just let me have what they're not really using, like a nice 2-acre lot next to my land that somebody has had up for auction, supposedly because they're trying to get some "money" for it. Why sell it for money when they could just give it away? They're not really using it, and it has just been sitting there for at least a few years now.