"Out of a Hat": Rereading the Book of Mormon Translation Process

[consiglieri]

In short, I miss the huge amount of history like we see in the Old Testament. It is quite amazing how you can look at the OT and see lots of hands (JEPD) and why they said what they said and see how it must have morphed over the ages from oral traditions to other documents that branched off and circled back and etc.

I actually am beginning to think there is a great deal of what you describe in the Book of Mormon, as well as the Bible.

Grant Hardy in his recent and excellent Understanding the Book of Mormon sets forth the three primary writers/editors of the Book of Mormon as we have it today, being Nephi, Mormon and Moroni (NMMi), and persuasively distinguishes between the three.

I think there is still much in the Book of Mormon that remains untapped because the many tools associated with Bible scholarship have not been applied very much on the Nephite record.

My perspective is that, when those scholarly tools are applied to the Book of Mormon, it begins to blossom with new meaning and insights.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Jaybear]

I find it interesting that the conspirators kept their mouth shut even when it was to their benefit to speak out, especially after the death of the "head conspirator".

Really? When was it in their best interest to publicly admit to having participated in a fraud?

In the real world, the only time such confessions occur is after someone is caught, and only then if they are seeking mercy, ie from their wife, the judge, the voting public.

Oliver Cowdery, for example, was a lawyer. Had he confessed to have participated in a fraud, he would have faced disbarment.

[MorningStar]

It is a little disappointing to me that the BofM didn't come to us the way the Bible (or some other ancient document) did.

That is, with direct ties to an ancient society and culture and mixtures of neighboring societies and room for lots and lots of discussion about how the people of the time had an agenda and certain cultural background to make them say the things they had to say. In short, I miss the huge amount of history like we see in the Old Testament. It is quite amazing how you can look at the OT and see lots of hands (JEPD) and why they said what they said and see how it must have morphed over the ages from oral traditions to other documents that branched off and circled back and etc.

In all, the Bible came to us in a pretty drawn out messy course of events. That is what makes it so amazing.

Contrast this to the BofM, which came to us through a guy looking in a hat? Kind of a let down in my opinion.

Personally, I think it's pretty dang cool that someone went to the trouble to engrave scriptures on plates to be preserved for future generations and later translated.

[maupayman]

I find it interesting that the conspirators kept their mouth shut even when it was to their benefit to speak out, especially after the death of the "head conspirator".

When was it in Cowdery's benefit to speak out?

I give up. I see little in common between the two groups -- like chemistry and alchemy.

The point is, many people handled his plates and believed them to be real and from God. Do you find this to be impressive evidence supporting Strange's claims?

[why me]

Agreed, maybe money was secondary in his motivation. Maybe, power and influence in a religious movement were more important to him than money. He was certainly successful in that regard. Also, how were his living expenses paid after he became prophet? I doubt he had time to work to provide for his family.

I don't think Joseph wrote the BoM. I think Rigdon had more to do with its authorship.

Not true at all, it was very successful. It spawned a large religious movement and gave Joseph power and influence over a large group of people. He is not the only religious leader to have died for his movement either.

You would need to see it all through the eyes of Joseph Smith and not through your own eyes well over a hundred years later. He did not wield much influence in a religious movement. True he was the prophet but his authority was limited. And in the end, he was murdered. And so, we are looking at a short period of time, nineteen years. And what did he leave behind? Nothing much. Emma was not exactly a rich woman after joseph died.

If Rigdon wrote the book of mormon, he had to be an idiot to die for the book of mormon. Why die for someone else's book? Plus, he had no idea if Rigdon would have come clean about the book and if so, JS would have died in vain. By going to his death and suffering imprisonment flies in the face of Rigdon as author.

If joseph was a fraud, he must have known that after his death, the witnesses would come clean and the church would be destroyed. But this was not on his mind at all. When Joseph was murdered, the church was not large at all. And his influence was limited to a small group of people. And lets face it, if he was a fraud, he was an idiot to believe that the church would still exist after his death.

[cinepro]

Personally, I think it's pretty dang cool that someone went to the trouble to engrave scriptures on plates to be preserved for future generations and later translated.

Although I have to wonder what Moroni thought when he learned the plates wouldn't even be used for much of the translation process...

[why me]

When was it in Cowdery's benefit to speak out?

The point is, many people handled his plates and believed them to be real and from God. Do you find this to be impressive evidence supporting Strange's claims?

Oliver would have benefited immensely if he would have come clean on this deathbed. But he didn't. Instead, he gave his testimony to wife, friends and child. Why? He had to be the most awful man alive when he did so, if he lied.

Strang was a copycat. And a fraud. And what we see today is a strangite church that no longer exists. Why? Because he was a fraud and the mormon church would have fared the same way if it were a fraud. To compare the strang church with the lds church is like comparing an ant to a ladybug.

[jskains]

Although I have to wonder what Moroni thought when he learned the plates wouldn't even be used for much of the translation process...

The plates were likely to give Joseph Smith visual/physical proof. Technically I think the entire BoM could have been written without them.

JMS

[zeezrom]

The plates were likely to give Joseph Smith visual/physical proof. Technically I think the entire BoM could have been written without them.

JMS

Well wait a second here. You mean God felt it necessary to give a human visual/physical proof of something?

[cinepro]

You would need to see it all through the eyes of Joseph Smith and not through your own eyes well over a hundred years later. He did not wield much influence in a religious movement. True he was the prophet but his authority was limited. And in the end, he was murdered. And so, we are looking at a short period of time, nineteen years. And what did he leave behind? Nothing much. Emma was not exactly a rich woman after joseph died.

If Rigdon wrote the book of mormon, he had to be an idiot to die for the book of mormon. Why die for someone else's book? Plus, he had no idea if Rigdon would have come clean about the book and if so, JS would have died in vain. By going to his death and suffering imprisonment flies in the face of Rigdon as author.

If joseph was a fraud, he must have known that after his death, the witnesses would come clean and the church would be destroyed. But this was not on his mind at all. When Joseph was murdered, the church was not large at all. And his influence was limited to a small group of people. And lets face it, if he was a fraud, he was an idiot to believe that the church would still exist after his death.

I think you are seriously underestimating the scope and depth of Joseph's influence (and opinion of himself and his position).

And as far as I can tell, any success or wealth Joseph didn't attain wasn't because he didn't want it.

[maupayman]

You would need to see it all through the eyes of Joseph Smith and not through your own eyes well over a hundred years later. He did not wield much influence in a religious movement. True he was the prophet but his authority was limited.

He did not wield much influence??? He spoke for God to those people. His authority was limited compared to whom? Compared to you and I, he had massive authority. He basically ran everything in Nauvoo, which was a significantly sized city for its time.

And in the end, he was murdered. And so, we are looking at a short period of time, nineteen years. And what did he leave behind? Nothing much. Emma was not exactly a rich woman after joseph died.

Again, you jump from power to money. They aren't always the same thing and many people are happy without a lot of money. He left behind more of a legacy than almost anyone from his time period.

If Rigdon wrote the book of mormon, he had to be an idiot to die for the book of mormon. Why die for someone else's book?

I don't think he wanted to die for the book, nor do I think he was killed because of the book. I think other issues motivated the mob to kill him.

Plus, he had no idea if Rigdon would have come clean about the book and if so, JS would have died in vain. By going to his death and suffering imprisonment flies in the face of Rigdon as author.

I don't see it that way. What was his alternative to "suffering imprisonment"? He didn't really have a choice, he had to go to jail. That, or become a fugitive.

If joseph was a fraud, he must have known that after his death, the witnesses would come clean and the church would be destroyed.

Cowdery wasn't going to come clean, he would look terrible if he did. I think the other two honestly believed they had seen visions. from what I recall, they believed they had other strange vissionary experiences before and after their time in mormonism.

But this was not on his mind at all. When Joseph was murdered, the church was not large at all. And his influence was limited to a small group of people.

Large and small relative to what? As I mentioned earlier, Nauvoo was a large city for its time. I recall Bushmann saying it was similar in size to Chicago.

And lets face it, if he was a fraud, he was an idiot to believe that the church would still exist after his death.

I disagree

[maupayman]

Oliver would have benefited immensely if he would have come clean on this deathbed.

How?

But he didn't. Instead, he gave his testimony to wife, friends and child. Why? He had to be the most awful man alive when he did so, if he lied.

Ok, its been a while. CFR on his testimony to his family. I have gotten rusty on some of this

Strang was a copycat. And a fraud. And what we see today is a strangite church that no longer exists. Why? Because he was a fraud and the mormon church would have fared the same way if it were a fraud. To compare the strang church with the lds church is like comparing an ant to a ladybug.

So, the mormon church is true because it has been more successful recruiting? I guess Catholicism and Islam must be really true....

[noel00]

Talk out of a hat

Idiom Definitions for 'Talk out of your hat'

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If someone is talking out of their hat, they're talking utter rubbish, especially if compounded with total ignorance of the subject on which they are pontificating. ('Talk through your hat' is also used.)

http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/talk+out+of+your+hat.html

Talk through one's hat

Meaning

Talk nonsense; especially on a subject that one professes to be knowledgeable about but in fact is ignorant of.

Smith: It's true. And I'm going to translate the plates and publish it into a book for the whole world to read. Now, ahah-I know you have a lot of money, Mr. Harris, and I'm just gonna need a little bit to pay for the publishing costs.

Harris: Mmm, I don't know. Uh, how do you expect to translate it?

Smith: With these. [presents the seer stones]

Harris: Rocks?

Smith: They're not rocks. They're seer stones, given to me by an angel. With them, God allowed me to translate the plates into English. Watch. You take this quill and paper and write down what I say. Sit here. [on the floor, by some sheets of paper and a quill pen in an ink well] I have the golden plates here in this hat. I need to have them somewhere dark so I can read the spiritual light.

Harris: Really?

Smith: Now, when I put the seer stones into the hat, the ancient letter light up and change into English, which I can then read to you.

Harris: Wow! [smith looks down and lowers his head so the face is buried in the hat]

Smith: Ooo, I'm seeing the light. Oh, okay. Write this down. "And... so... it... was... that... Christ... appeared before... the... Nephites."

Singers: And that's how the Book of Mormon was written

Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb

Dumb dadumb dumb dumb dumb dumb

Dumb dadumb dumb dumb dumb dumb

Dahumb dahumb dumb dumb dumb dumb

Dumb dumb dumb dumb duuumb, duuumb.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon134.html

[Bunk]

If one balks at accepting the Book of Mormon translation process because one doesn't see the right sort of evidence for the book's antiquity, that's one thing. But if one rejects it because one associates it with illusionism and other elements from the wrong cultural milieu, that's another. It is to the latter sort of objection that the reading of symbols here is relevant.

Personally, I balk primarily because of the BoM text. It reads fake and its primary source is obviously the King James Bible. Plus, I think the archaeological/anthropological/geographical elements are all wrong for a genuine American setting. I think I will never get over the ridiculousness of an angel taking the plates back up to heaven.

On the other hand, I admit I can't fully explain who wrote it or how they did it.

Therefore, I think it would be a very good apologetic strategy to avoid antiquity/historicity issues and instead focus on the super-ambiguous "translation process" -- as long as you remember to put it in "quotes".

[Balzer]

the hat had no inherent meaning--it was just a tool to provide darkness in which Joseph could best perceive the spiritual light associated with his seer stone.

Question: Is it true that the stone used was the same stone used by Joseph Smith and his father to find buried treasure?

Respectfully,

Balzer

[DonBradley]

Talk out of a hat

Idiom Definitions for 'Talk out of your hat'

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If someone is talking out of their hat, they're talking utter rubbish, especially if compounded with total ignorance of the subject on which they are pontificating. ('Talk through your hat' is also used.)

http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/talk+out+of+your+hat.html

Talk through one's hat

Meaning

Talk nonsense; especially on a subject that one professes to be knowledgeable about but in fact is ignorant of.

Noel,

Thanks for providing this. It dovetails so nicely with my argument above, demonstrating the current connotations of Joseph Smith's use of a hat that we, not wanting to commit the fallacy of presentism, would want to avoid reading back into the past where they don't belong. Following up on your bit of research on this phrase I just checked GoogleBooks and can't find any use of the phrases "talk/ing out of your/his hat" prior to the 20th century. So it's a shame people let themselves be disturbed about connotations of an action that didn't exist at the time the action was taken, kind of like if people got upset because we found medieval Christian iconography that showed St. Francis of Assisi extending his middle finger to a baby bird. These things just didn't have the same meanings back then, as your research helps to demonstrate.

Cheers,

Don

[maupayman]

Agreed.

And the miracle is that we still do.

quite

[cdowis]

Personally, I balk primarily because of the BoM text. It reads fake and its primary source is obviously the King James Bible.

I have read the BOM over thirty times, and came to exactly the opposite conclusion. While the OT is found in the BOM, and the sacred language is used (thee, thou), it is obvious to me that the text is independent of the Bible. It is authentic scripture.

Just curious, how much have you actually read in the BOM.

[maupayman]

I have read the BOM over thirty times, and came to exactly the opposite conclusion. While the OT is found in the BOM, and the sacred language is used (thee, thou), it is obvious to me that the text is independent of the Bible. It is authentic scripture.

Just curious, how much have you actually read in the BOM.

What about the lengthy sections taken directly out of the Bible?

[why me]

How?

His name would be praised by you and many others as someone who came clean about the fraud that he helped create. He would be a hero. Now, you and others are calling him a liar and a fraud...hardly something for his relatives now to be proud about. Also, he would have saved many the 'pain' of belonging to a fraudelent church. And he would have stopped a mass immigration westward which did take some human life. Oliver would have been a hero if he came clean and proved it with details of how the process was done.

[why me]

What about the lengthy sections taken directly out of the Bible?

It would have been more interesting if the book of mormon contradicted the bible passages.

[why me]

So, the mormon church is true because it has been more successful recruiting? I guess Catholicism and Islam must be really true....

Well, here comes a guy with the same story as Joseph Smith and begins to copy the amount of witnesses too. And then he begins to build a church. It smells like a copycat and strang was not a very original thinker.

[maupayman]

His name would be praised by you and many others as someone who came clean about the fraud that he helped create. He would be a hero.

Or, the mobs that hated mormons would have murdered him for being a liar and a fraud. He wouldn't be praised be me if he had come clean, he still would have been a fraud.

Now, you and others are calling him a liar and a fraud...hardly something for his relatives now to be proud about.

So, him admitting he was a fraud would have cleared his name from being called and liar and a fraud by people like me today? I'm not following you here.

Also, he would have saved many the 'pain' of belonging to a fraudelent church.

Even televangelists can convince themselves that their fraud is helping bring people closer to God. I'm sure Oliver could have found ways to justify keeping quiet about it.

And he would have stopped a mass immigration westward which did take some human life. Oliver would have been a hero if he came clean and proved it with details of how the process was done.

He would also have disappointed an entire movement of devoted believers and become known as the liar that helped start a fraud. Hardly a lot of incentive to come clean.

[maupayman]

It would have been more interesting if the book of mormon contradicted the bible passages.

Why?

[why me]

Ok, its been a while. CFR on his testimony to his family. I have gotten rusty on some of this

Oliver rejoined the Church and prepared to journey to Utah to unite with the main body of the Latter-day Saints but he died while living temporarily in Richmond, Missouri. Oliver Cowdery had contracted tuberculosis. In March 1850, while on his deathbed, Oliver used his dying breaths to testify of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. Lucy P. Young, his half-sister, was at his bedside and reported:

Oliver Cowdery just before breathing his last, asked his attendants to raise him up in bed that he might talk to the family and his friends, who were present. He then told them to live according to the teachings contained in the Book of Mormon, and promised them, if they would do this, that they would meet him in heaven. He then said,