"Out of a Hat": Rereading the Book of Mormon Translation Process

[Chaos]

Like I said... you aren't worth a response anymore as your intent is obvious with your "official" CFR's and denial of all data posted.

Then get out of the thread.

If this poster puts up one more post without documentation someone other than Selek send in a report and he will be banned.

[Deborah]

We know Joseph Smith owned these seer stones before the book of Mormon and they are now known by the mane Urm and Thummim and the church has them, but my question is the source of the power.

No we don't know that. The U&T is separate from the stones and what stones Joseph actually used besides the U&T is subject to speculation.

[Vance]

Such is the fate of the Pharisee.

Hey, wait a minute! That's my job!

[selek]

Note to the critical thought process... in all of selek's posts he gives no reason or data to support what he claims cannot be proven.

Note the deliberate falsehood. Thews is consciously striving to avoid the admission that: 1) his sources do not support his claims- and that he has deliberately falsified and misrepresented them, and 2)that actual hard data was given demonstrating that his sources are not what he claims them to be.

The OP was about the translation process, which was done with a seer stone in a hat... this is a fact.

Note the deliberate omission and misstatement of the Mormon position.

We do not deny that part of the translation was done through the instrumentality of a seer stone. We simply point out that without the work and will of the Lord himself, no means at Joseph's disposal would have served.

This is a strawman argument that Thews has invented.

Mormons do not deny that a seer stone was used- because the precise instrument used is irrelevant to the case and cause of the Restoration. These sorts of instruments have been used throughout God's interaction with his people.

The reader is invited to consider the following "magical" instruments used by the Lord's people in learning what was and/or carrying out the Lord's will

• seer stones are noted approvingly in Revelations, along with the promise that each worthy believer will receive one.
  
• the Urim and Thummim (a set of sacred seer stones and a breastplate were used by the Lord's authorized priests in both the Tabernacle and Temple in ancient Israel)
  
• wine dregs (and tea leaves) were used by Joseph in Egypt.
  
• ritual washings were used by both the Savior and numerous prophets to cure diseases such as blindness and leprosy.
  
• Moses used a "magical" staff- one which could turn into a snake and back
  
• Moses later used a "magical" staff- one emblazoned with a serpent to cure the children of Israel from a plague in the desert.
  
• the Savior himself used a mud-and-spit poultice (and a ritual washing) to cure blindness
  
• a faithful woman used the hem of the Savior's coat as her particular talisman.
  
• both Moses and the Twelve Apostles used lots (dice) to divine the Lord's will and intent.
  

As the list above demonstrates, Joseph's use of a seer stone and of the Urim and Thummim to perform the Lord's will (in the translation of the Book of Mormon and later the Book of Abraham) is neither without Biblical precedent nor evil a/o blasphemous.

Thews appeal to Deuteronomy is a special pleading because he would apply it unjustly and unevenly.

If Joseph Smith is to be condemned as a false prophet because of his practice of "divination", then the Levitical and Aaronic priests of ancient Israel, Joseph of Egypt, Moses, the prophet Elisha, the Twelve Apostles, and the Savior himself must likewise be condemned- for they too all incorporated elements of ritual "magic" into discerning and doing the will of the Lord.

Facts don't bode well for selek's argument, which is why he won't present them, or use them to counter with an argument based on facts.

This is yet another fabrication. All of the items, events, and methods listed above are clearly recorded in the Bible- a book which thews insists is both perfect and inerrant.

These facts clearly support my argument and the position of my fellow Mormons.

Moreover, it is an indisputable fact (despite his attempt to scamper away from it) that Thew's primary reference to the Thompson testimony (as re-posted in Post # 177) comes not from a court transcript, but from propaganda and hate mill which claims to quote a magazine article written roughly a half century after the fact.

As has been amply demonstrated, it is thews- not I- who has a problem with the facts.

I'm done with this opinion over and over in yet another lame attempt to just make it too hard to converse, because conversing isn't the objective... repetitive jargon based on nothing is the objective and it's used often... just look at the lack of facts presented or referenced... nothing based on nothing but opinion.

And yet it is thews, not the Mormons here, who fell back on rote dogma and vacuous repetition.

[selek]

Hey, wait a minute! That's my job!

Wait....I though we were going to be cast into the fiery furnace on Thursday!

I even bought marshmallows....

[thews]

Wait....I though we were going to be cast into the fiery furnace on Thursday!

I even bought marshmallows....

Note to the critical thought process

[thews]

Then get out of the thread.

If this poster puts up one more post without documentation someone other than Selek send in a report and he will be banned.

You can ban me from this thread if you choose, just as you did from the contradiction thread, but I would think it a double-standard as Lehi only needs to claim a source from a book and I am banned for giving the source... your call. I back up what I say and only ask for it (CFR) in return. It that wrong?

You are lots of noise and little substance. Clean it up or find another board. Meanwhile, find another thread cause you are banned from this one.

[selek]

Note to the critical thought process

[Vance]

Wait....I though we were going to be cast into the fiery furnace on Thursday!

I even bought marshmallows....

I'll bring the graham crackers and the chocolate! YUM!!!!