Only part of the truth

[Deborah]

Just don't condemn MDB for being a "cesspool" when MA&DB gangs up on questioning members like this.

Seriously, Scottie, I don't believe you are really that naive. This was not a sincere question but only a way to put forth an agenda.

[zeezrom]

And now we see the reason for the original question: If the church doesn't give full disclosure (according to my narrow definition of what that means) then I don't have to either.

whateva

I said later what I plan to do. Keep reading. It is juicy stuff!

[David T]

Does withholding information bring us closer to Christ because we just see a nice peaceful painting with young flowers and pretty rainbows?

I still don't see anything being withheld. I take a crap at least once or twice a day. They're not pretty, but it's a part of life. If when giving a review of my day I leave out the defecation, does that mean I'm being dishonest and withholding information? Does that mean I'm misleading people by teaching that I've never taken a dump?

Sorry to be crass, but seriously.

[zeezrom]

But this is not the same as the "chruch has lied to me" which is what Zee was originally hiniting at. The church does produce a lot of this info. Is it taught in sunday school? Not all of it, but if one wants to know about it the info is there all they need to do is look.

So we spend all these hours studying in church, reading the scriptures, home teaching, and FHE and you think most members are going to want to spend extra time on top of this to look at the details?

Do we get extra credit for this?

[gmormon]

So we spend all these hours studying in church, reading the scriptures, home teaching, and FHE and you think most members are going to want to spend extra time on top of this to look at the details?

Do we get extra credit for this?

Yes!!! We won't feel the church is lying to us or hiding things if and when somebody reveals a suppose deep dark secret to us

[zeezrom]

Seriously, Scottie, I don't believe you are really that naive. This was not a sincere question but only a way to put forth an agenda.

and my agenda is....

...to see what you guys think. Do I think I'm going to make you stop believing? What else would my agenda be?

Could it be that I thought maybe this board would give me both sides of the story? Ah hah! I did think that. Amazing.

[SilverKnight]

But this is not the same as the "chruch has lied to me" which is what Zee was originally hiniting at.

No it's not.

And I don't see any particularly better way to address this problem than what the church is already doing - making the in-depth histories available through bookstores and apologetic sites, and omitting it from church curriculum.

[zeezrom]

You mean like polygamy? And the only thing I can get from you is that you just don't like it so because you don't like it JS must be evil. THat is about what interaction I have had from you on the issue of polygamy. We went the rounds, I felt ignored by you.

Just go to FAIR and FARMS I guess. There is fodder for discussion there.

[Scottie]

Here is my take on this...

I've recently had a change of mind about the milk before meat. I don't believe it is necessarily deceitful to lay a foundation of your beliefs before you delve into the more hard to accept doctrines.

Now, where I do believe it is deceitful is that there is absolutely NO PLAN WHATSOEVER to teach the meat. Ever! If the member happens to stumble upon it on their own, well, the church won't ex you for that. But they certainly aren't going to encourage it.

IMO, the meat is very important! You should know what you are signing up for!

If I might make a bad analogy, it would be similar to a MLM pitch that promises you untold wealth with very little work! Here, just buy this starter kit for only $795, get your friends and family to sign up and BOOM! Instant millionaire! How many untold issues might have changed your mind if you had only known up front? Would you say the MLM pitch was dishonest because they didn't disclose everything? Or is it enough that you "felt good" about the pitch?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So we spend all these hours studying in church, reading the scriptures, home teaching, and FHE and you think most members are going to want to spend extra time on top of this to look at the details?

Do we get extra credit for this?

You have a mind don't you? Use it. You are trying to make the church responsible for your on action or inaction. Why are you making excusses for other members? You can only speak for your self.

I do all of the things you outlined and I still manage to stay some what current on these supposed issues. What is your problem?

Btw I work full time and I have 3 kids and one infant. I play in a hard rock band once a week I read scriptures and do FHE and attend 3 hours of church. I know that I still have time to read up on the BoA "issues". YOu act as if it is impoosible to take some initiative and read up on your own. I ask you to take ownership of your own life.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Just go to FAIR and FARMS I guess. There is fodder for discussion there.

You are the one claiming that you didn't know things about JS. And that now that you do know them that you are now some how closer to Christ because you learned that JS was a false prophet???? I guess????

[Ahab]

So we spend all these hours studying in church, reading the scriptures, home teaching, and FHE and you think most members are going to want to spend extra time on top of this to look at the details?

Do we get extra credit for this?

The question should be whether more study helps people to learn more than people who don't study as much.

And, yes, we do get extra credit (in the form of extra intelligence) for learning as much as possible.

[David T]

Here is my take on this...

I've recently had a change of mind about the milk before meat. I don't believe it is necessarily deceitful to lay a foundation of your beliefs before you delve into the more hard to accept doctrines.

Now, where I do believe it is deceitful is that there is absolutely NO PLAN WHATSOEVER to teach the meat. Ever! If the member happens to stumble upon it on their own, well, the church won't ex you for that. But they certainly aren't going to encourage it.

IMO, the meat is very important! You should know what you are signing up for!

You consider difficult historical details meat? I don't think you understand those milk and meat scriptures.

The meat is taught in the temple. And it has nothing to do with mysterious translation methods, failed banking endeavors, or a Prophet attempting to defend himself when being murdered.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Here is my take on this...

I've recently had a change of mind about the milk before meat. I don't believe it is necessarily deceitful to lay a foundation of your beliefs before you delve into the more hard to accept doctrines.

Now, where I do believe it is deceitful is that there is absolutely NO PLAN WHATSOEVER to teach the meat. Ever! If the member happens to stumble upon it on their own, well, the church won't ex you for that. But they certainly aren't going to encourage it.

IMO, the meat is very important! You should know what you are signing up for!

If I might make a bad analogy, it would be similar to a MLM pitch that promises you untold wealth with very little work! Here, just buy this starter kit for only $795, get your friends and family to sign up and BOOM! Instant millionaire! How many untold issues might have changed your mind if you had only known up front? Would you say the MLM pitch was dishonest because they didn't disclose everything? Or is it enough that you "felt good" about the pitch?

To some extant you have a point. I think that it would not be a bad thing to explore some of these issues a little more indepth on a broader range. I think that it would need to be done on say a Wednesday during the week. What do you suggest that would be a better way to do it? I am currious.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

No it's not.

And I don't see any particularly better way to address this problem than what the church is already doing - making the in-depth histories available through bookstores and apologetic sites, and omitting it from church curriculum.

I think.. I agree with you here.

[MorningStar]

Here is my take on this...

I've recently had a change of mind about the milk before meat. I don't believe it is necessarily deceitful to lay a foundation of your beliefs before you delve into the more hard to accept doctrines.

Now, where I do believe it is deceitful is that there is absolutely NO PLAN WHATSOEVER to teach the meat. Ever! If the member happens to stumble upon it on their own, well, the church won't ex you for that. But they certainly aren't going to encourage it.

IMO, the meat is very important! You should know what you are signing up for!

If I might make a bad analogy, it would be similar to a MLM pitch that promises you untold wealth with very little work! Here, just buy this starter kit for only $795, get your friends and family to sign up and BOOM! Instant millionaire! How many untold issues might have changed your mind if you had only known up front? Would you say the MLM pitch was dishonest because they didn't disclose everything? Or is it enough that you "felt good" about the pitch?

I don't agree with that. We have the Gospel basics and then there are more advanced lessons. I don't think every detail from our church's history is "meat". The doctrine is the important thing.

[Ahab]

and my agenda is....

...to see what you guys think. Do I think I'm going to make you stop believing? What else would my agenda be?

Could it be that I thought maybe this board would give me both sides of the story? Ah hah! I did think that. Amazing.

I may be one of the few, or maybe not, but I don't see you as someone who is attacking The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

I see you as someone who is slip-sliding around while not being sure for yourself about whether or not The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is The (true) Church of Jesus Christ, as well as someone who isn't sure about whether the gospel the Church preaches is the true gospel of Jesus Christ, which if all truth be told, is actually the true gospel of our Father in heaven.

I know it is, on all counts, and your lack of sure knowledge on those points doesn't affect my faith in the truth, regardless of where you are in your own personal efforts in trying to find out about ALL that is true, so feel free to ask as many questions as you would like to ask until you also feel sure about what is actually the gospel truth.

[Scottie]

To some extant you have a point. I think that it would not be a bad thing to explore some of these issues a little more indepth on a broader range. I think that it would need to be done on say a Wednesday during the week. What do you suggest that would be a better way to do it? I am currious.

Well, I know that other religions require a serious study of their religion before they will let you join! It seems the LDS are desperate to get people to join. I would like to see the focus go away from pure number of converts to quality of converts. The missionary lessons should go on way past the milk before a member is able to be baptised.

I also believe that the meat should be taught in seminary to the youth of the church. Inoculation is your friend and I believe this is the place to do it.

I don't think it would hurt to have occasional fireside that address these issues as well.

[zeezrom]

Something in the back of my mind keeps saying "The full truth; nothing but the truth."

What that has to do with growing closer to Christ is.... well, I guess I need to think about this.

As far as my own personal disclosure of details to someone judging my worthiness? Maybe I need to consider a different approach than what church correlation does for my own personal reasons.

[Scottie]

I don't agree with that. We have the Gospel basics and then there are more advanced lessons. I don't think every detail from our church's history is "meat". The doctrine is the important thing.

Sure... if you can define "doctrine".

Polygamy, technically, is still a doctrine. Is it taught to converts?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

At the very least this thread generated 5 pages in about 20 mins. That is some good stuff... I guess.

[David T]

(Below)

[selek]

At the very least this thread generated 5 pages in about 20 mins. That is some good stuff... I guess.

As someone said earlier,

They kick over a hornet's nest and are somehow surprised that the hornet's are angry?

If you make asinine comments in a public forum, you can expected to be shouted down.

Why would this forum be any different?

[zeezrom]

If you make asinine comments in a public forum, you can expected to be shouted down.

Well selek, you have proven to contribute nothing of any value in this discussion in quite a number of posts.

[Scottie]

As someone said earlier,

They kick over a hornet's nest and are somehow surprised that the hornet's are angry?

If you make asinine comments in a public forum, you can expected to be shouted down.

Why would this forum be any different?

I thought MA&DB prided itself on being the nob hill of the Mormon boards? (as opposed to the GSTP??)