Only part of the truth

[Kevin Christensen]

I'm mad at science. When I was a kid, they taught me that dinosaurs were cold blooded. They taught me that such a thing as Brontosaurus existed. Oh sure, you could argue that those scientists were doing the best they could, using their best understanding. But isn't science about truth? Surely I'm justified in holding scientists up to a higher standard. What they didn't know, they should have known, and indeed, MUST have known, and they should have told me.

I'm mad at social scientists. They never taught me about the Tulsa Massacre. Why did I have to learn about that on my own?

I'm mad at Gary Cooper and Cecil B. DeMille. Their Wild Bill Hickcock died to save the west. Not the real one.

I'm mad at God. Isn't there a beattitude that says, "Blessed are they who sit like lumps, for they shall be spoon fed, and never caught off guard, and never ever disappointed by anyone."

Oh... Nevermind. I'm thinking of "Seek and ye shall find. Ask and ye shall receive. Knock and it shall be opened unto you."

Nevermind. I'm not mad. Especially not at God. I guess I'll just keep seeking and learning and repenting of my ignorance and pride like everyone else.

I do miss able to be mad at anyone who disappoints me though. Anyone who falls short of my imperfect idea of perfection. I miss freedom to be righteously intolerant and judgmental, blissfully unaware of the motes in my own eyes. Still able to feel deep down that the Greek who said, "Man is the measure of all things" was not being specific enough. I miss thinking it was me who had the measure of all things and everyone. Now I'm just another sheep, looking for further light and knowledge, unable to judge so righteously.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Hey, I'm all about taking as much as you dish out. Just don't condemn MDB for being a "cesspool" when MA&DB gangs up on questioning members like this.

Questioning? Really Scottie? Really??

[selek]

Hey, I'm all about taking as much as you dish out. Just don't condemn MDB for being a "cesspool" when MA&DB gangs up on questioning members like this.

Zeezrom is NOT "questioning". He is an apostate seeking to spread his disaffection. There is a difference.

Zeezrom's antics and statements both here and at the Trailer Park have demonstrated that he is not interested in reconciling his faith to the Church and the Gospel.

He is not "struggling" to understand- he has decided that the Church is wrong and will tolerate no argument to the contrary.

He has made up his mind, and is no longer interested in understanding positions contrary to his own.

He's not looking to understand the Church or to be reconciled.

He just wants to be proven right.

Someone seeking to be proven right is NOT someone who is questioning or struggling, but someone in opposition.

He must win and the Church must lose.

The textbook definition of an apostate.

[David T]

Someone next to me in EQ once leaned over and asked, "How many times do we have to cover the same topics over and over?"

Have you ever looked around at the glazed eyes in EQ before? I don't think we need to continually discuss the second annointing but it might help to start trusting the members to deal with more than what is repeated in the manuals now.

Hey, if the church is true, what would it hurt to disclose more?

When the majority of the general body of the Church is living what's been taught, then you'll see something new emphasized. I've seen some of those vocally bored EQ members in Disciplinary Councils over repeated counts of infidelity. I don't think they needed more history to help them out.

[SilverKnight]

because they are simpletons?

Because they only have a cursory knowledge of these byzantine historic issues.

To even begin talking about the KEP would illicit blank stares.

[selek]

because they are simpletons?

What was Scottie saying about name calling and personal attacks?

Let's see.

In this thread alone, Zeezrom has called the Church (and it's members) dishonest, deceitful, hypocritical, manipulative, greedy, power-hungry, indifferent, money-grubbing, venal, and now simpletons.

Clearly, Scottie's outrage at "name calling" only flows one way.

[zeezrom]

...unable to judge so righteously.

You make some good points. I try to look at the church as a flawed organization with people in it who are trying to do what is right. That helps.

Maybe more trust can be given to the membership so we can see more put into the manuals.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Someone next to me in EQ once leaned over and asked, "How many times do we have to cover the same topics over and over?"

Have you ever looked around at the glazed eyes in EQ before? I don't think we need to continually discuss the second annointing but it might help to start trusting the members to deal with more than what is repeated in the manuals now.

Hey, if the church is true, what would it hurt to disclose more?

So you think the church doesn't disclose more becuase it really thinks it is false?

Tell me, you keep dodging this question. How does knowing that JS had a gun at carthage help one draw closer to Christ? How does going over William Claytons journal help members draw closer to Christ?

And maybe in EQ you could help by participaing rather then looking at the glazed looks on others faces?

[zeezrom]

What was Scottie saying about name calling and personal attacks?

Let's see.

In this thread alone, Scottie has called the Church (and it's members) dishonest, deceitful, greedy, power-hungry, indifferent, money-grubbing, venal, and now simpletons.

Clearly, Scottie's outrage at "name calling" only flows one way.

Hey, I don't think people like me are simpletons. SK was the one who implied that adding information to the manuals would fly over their heads. I am doing anything but calling us lay members simpletons!

You need to take that back, my friend.

[Scottie]

Zeezrom is NOT "questioning". He is an apostate seeking to spread his disaffection. There is a difference.

Zeezrom's antics and statements both here and at the Trailer Park have demonstrated that he is not interested in reconciling his faith to the Church and the Gospel.

He is not "struggling" to understand- he has decided that the Church is wrong and will tolerate no argument to the contrary.

He has made up his mind, and is no longer interested in understanding positions contrary to his own.

He's not looking to understand the Church or to be reconciled.

He just wants to be proven right.

Someone seeking to be proven right is NOT someone who is questioning or struggling, but someone in opposition.

He must win and the Church must lose.

The textbook definition of an apostate.

Ahh... I see. Since he is an apostate, he is fair game to be treated pooly. Gotcha.

[selek]

Hey, I don't think people like me are simpletons. SK was the one who implied that adding information to the manuals would fly over their heads. I am doing anything but calling us lay members simpletons!

You need to take that back, my friend.

I love the utter, rank, insurmountable, hypocrisy in that "us".

You are an apostate, who has set himself at odds with the Church and presumes to judge and condemn.

You have cast yourself out in everything but name and now stand in opposition to the Church and the Gospel.

You have perpetuated falsehoods against this Church, laid snares and traps for both the Church and its members, and sought to make both the Church and its members offenders for a word.

You have sought to undermine and destroy the faith of others, and in so doing, have waged war against the Kingdom of God.

On that basis, amongst your legion of acts of hypocrisy, I demand to know-

Who are YOU to "cry repentance" unto this people?

[zeezrom]

Because they only have a cursory knowledge of these byzantine historic issues.

To even begin talking about the KEP would illicit blank stares.

Are you sure? We should try it and find out what happens!

Will, can you guest lecture in our EQ this Sunday?

[Scottie]

What was Scottie saying about name calling and personal attacks?

Let's see.

In this thread alone, Scottie has called the Church (and it's members) dishonest, deceitful, hypocritical, manipulative, greedy, power-hungry, indifferent, money-grubbing, venal, and now simpletons.

Clearly, Scottie's outrage at "name calling" only flows one way.

Wait... I called who what now???

Not only that, but calling a church a name is a bit different than calling the individual you are speaking to a name, don't you think??

[David T]

Z, stop avoiding the questions towards you as to how these details, if taught in the manual and class, will help individuals grow closer to Christ through application.

[zeezrom]

I love the utter, rank, insurmountable, hypocrisy in that "us".

You are an apostate, who has set himself at odds with the Church and presumes to judge and condemn.

Who are YOU to "cry repentance" unto this people?

Anyway, I was not calling members simpletons. I have friends and family in the church who would not be considered so. Call me one if you like.

Is this the question I keep dodging, selek? Who am I to cry repentance? Do you want me to answer this?

[selek]

Wait... I called who what now???

My apologies Scottie.

My fingers worked faster than my brain (it happens).

The orignal statement should have said that Zeezrom was making those accusations not you.

I will correct it.

[Scottie]

My apologies Scottie.

My fingers worked faster than my brain (it happens).

The orignal statement should have said that Zeezrom was making those accusations not you.

I will correct it.

It happens to the best of us .... and apparently you too...

[SilverKnight]

In the interest of fairness, Zeezrom has a point.

There are difficult and unsettling facts lurking in LDS church history that the average member does not know about.

Some never learn about them, some do.

Some are not bothered, some are very.

Some are able to salvage their faith, some aren't.

As long as people can log onto the internet and discover this damning information the church is going to have this problem.

[Ahab]

It seems reasonable that the quote from www.lds.org is misleading. Would you agree?

Interesting question

I'll re phrase what I think is your question like this:

Is your quote from www.lds.org misleading?

When considering your answer, try thinking about how you are responsible for your own thoughts.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Ahh... I see. Since he is an apostate, he is fair game to be treated pooly. Gotcha.

Treated poorly? You must be in a different thread than I. What I see here is telling it like it is. He is an apostate that is not interested in understanding something. He is trying to play gotcha. We are just calling him on it.

[volgadon]

Let me ask a different question. By not including in the lesson manuals %100 of positive, faith promoting incidents and accounts, is the church lying, is it hiding its history?

[zeezrom]

Z, stop avoiding the questions towards you as to how these details will help individuals grow closer to Christ through application.

OK, here is the question. My head stopped spinning so I can address it. Everyone stop for a second so we can look at this.

How will additional details help members grow closer to Christ?

Here is my problem. I found details that make Joseph Smith be someone other than I originally thought. Should we include the nitty gritty details to prevent the shock factor for me later on? Maybe not.

Should the church discuss the problems with the BofM evidence and BofA translation in SS?

Maybe not. That would just confuse and hurt people's belief in the Restoration and the foundation of Mormonism.

Maybe it needs to stay withheld.

Does withholding information bring us closer to Christ because we just see a nice peaceful painting with young flowers and pretty rainbows?

Maybe pretty things do that for us. I don't know. Does anyone have any thoughts besides that I'm an evil apostate?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

In the interest of fairness, Zeezrom has a point.

There are difficult and unsettling facts lurking in LDS church history that the average member does not know about.

Some never learn about them, some do.

Some are not bothered, some are very.

Some are able to salvage their faith, some aren't.

As long as people can log onto the internet and discover this damning information the church is going to have this problem.

But this is not the same as the "chruch has lied to me" which is what Zee was originally hiniting at. The church does produce a lot of this info. Is it taught in sunday school? Not all of it, but if one wants to know about it the info is there all they need to do is look.

[Deborah]

No. But I am considering what I should disclose to my bishop. When he asks if I believe in the Restoration, I will say "Yes."

And now we see the reason for the original question: If the church doesn't give full disclosure (according to my narrow definition of what that means) then I don't have to either.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

OK, here is the question. My head stopped spinning so I can address it. Everyone stop for a second so we can look at this.

How will additional details help members grow closer to Christ?

Here is my problem. I found details that make Joseph Smith be someone other than I originally thought. Should we include the nitty gritty details to prevent the shock factor for me later on? Maybe not.

You mean like polygamy? And the only thing I can get from you is that you just don't like it so because you don't like it JS must be evil. THat is about what interaction I have had from you on the issue of polygamy. We went the rounds, I felt ignored by you.