zeezrom Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 On the Gospel Principles of www.lds.org, there is a page that covers the subject of honesty.It says, Lying is intentionally deceiving others. Bearing false witness is one form of lying. The Lord gave this commandment to the children of Israel:
SilverKnight Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 It is unreasonable to expect a church to teach critical viewpoints and faith-demoting history to its own members.If that constitutes lying then yes, the LDS has lied to you, and all other churches have lied to their members as well.
Deborah Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 Upon learning some of the history of the church, I felt as if the church only ever intended to give me a portion of the truth and nothing more.How on earth is giving highlights of something the same as deliberately telling only part of the truth, particularly when "the church" has never tried to hide any of the history but makes it available for those who are interested. Someone asks how your day is going do you tell them every little detail or just the highlights?
zeezrom Posted May 25, 2010 Author Posted May 25, 2010 It is unreasonable to expect a church to teach critical viewpoints and faith-demoting history to its own members.If that constitutes lying then yes, the LDS has lied to you, and all other churches have lied to their members as well.It seems reasonable that the quote from www.lds.org is misleading. Would you agree?
USU78 Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 It seems reasonable that the quote from www.lds.org is misleading. Would you agree?http://www.amazon.com/Offenders-Word-Daniel-C-Peterson/dp/0934893357
David T Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 It seems reasonable that the quote from www.lds.org is misleading. Would you agree?You mean from the same Church that is publishing every document ever produced by Joseph Smith (edited by the man who wrote the definitive and most detailed Joseph Smith Biography), and also supported the most detailed and documented book on the Mountain Meadows Massacre that has ever been published, even though it was written by Official Church Historians?Or do you believe that the Church should spend more time on teaching History than teaching Doctrine in its short Sunday meetings? Seriously, have you been to a Sunday School class lately? Do you feel it would be more important to spend an hour discussing the intricate details of the Kirtland Safety Society (which can be found in a book written by another Church History Employee) than teaching the doctrines of the Gospel?I really don't understand what you want. The Church has a system of priorities. Helping individuals and families become closer to Christ and teaching saving principles is of higher priority than teaching nitty gritty details of history. The Church is continuing to make the material more and more available, but I don't fault them for not dedicating precious time and money to it instead of focus efforts on spiritual ministry.
SilverKnight Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 It seems reasonable that the quote from www.lds.org is misleading. Would you agree?No. That quote appears to be a simple definition of lying. If you're fishing for agreement, and want me to cede that church only shares an abbreviated, faith-promoting version of its history in its Sunday Schools and Seminaries then yes, I agree.
Gervin Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 It is unreasonable to expect a church to teach critical viewpoints and faith-demoting history to its own members.If that constitutes lying then yes, the LDS has lied to you, and all other churches have lied to their members as well.But all of the other churches are off the hook because none of them are the one true church. You are basically saying that honesty is not one of the features of the one true (LDS) church. Doesn't that militate against the LDS church as the one true church?
zeezrom Posted May 25, 2010 Author Posted May 25, 2010 but I don't fault them for not dedicating precious time and money to it instead of focus efforts on spiritual ministry.I assume you believe the mall downtown is part of the spiritual ministry?
Jason Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 Not this old chestnut again. I suppose, Zeezrom, when someone asks how you're doing you go into details on how many cheerios you ate for breakfast (even if you didn't eat cheerios for breakfast, in which case the count is zero), because anything less wouldn't be full disclosure, right?
David T Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 I assume you believe the mall downtown is part of the spiritual ministry? Are you going to respond to the specific points made of all the ways the Church has been involved in presenting TONS of details of history, or just throw down ridiculous zingers?
selek Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 Zeezrom is an apostate with only two goals in mind:1) to justify his apostacy in his own mind,and 2) to spread his disaffection among those not inoculated against his poison.No reasonable person would hold any other to the arbitrary and impossibly high standard of disclosure.If, by some miracle of God, it WERE possible for the Church to prise open his skull with a can-opener and pour in every minor factoid of the last two thousand years, Zeezrom and the other sons of perdition would be leading the charge accusing the Church of brainwashing and indoctrination........oh....wait. He already DOES.According to the gotcha arguments Zeezrom and his ilk champion, the Church is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't.Zeezrom, on the other hand, is simply damned.
SilverKnight Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 I assume you believe the mall downtown is part of the spiritual ministry?*groan*
zeezrom Posted May 25, 2010 Author Posted May 25, 2010 Not this old chestnut again. I suppose, Zeezrom, when someone asks how you're doing you go into details on how many cheerios you ate for breakfast, because anything less wouldn't be full disclosure, right?No. But I am considering what I should disclose to my bishop. When he asks if I believe in the Restoration, I will say "Yes." Or I could explain to him that I believe it was a movement that Joseph Smith believed in and that it actually, in truth, happened.&etc....
Joseph Antley Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 I assume you believe the mall downtown is part of the spiritual ministry?Making more money so that we can devote more money to caring for the poor, to building temples, to funding missions, to responding to natural disasters, and to printing the Word of God, among other things. I fully support the Church making investments, including in property and businesses. I would be disappointed if they didn't.
zeezrom Posted May 25, 2010 Author Posted May 25, 2010 Are you going to respond to the specific points made of all the ways the Church has been involved in presenting TONS of details of history, or just throw down zingers?Wow, I really hit a nerve on this one. Is everything included in the JSPapers? William Clayton journal, council of 50,...Even so, will correlation include any of this? Will correlation include the rocks in the hat mode of translation so we can discuss it in SS and EQ/RS?
Jason Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 No. But I am considering what I should disclose to my bishop. When he asks if I believe in the Restoration, I will say "Yes." Or I could explain to him that I believe it was a movement that Joseph Smith believed in and that it actually, in truth, happened.&etc....By all means you should tell your Bishop where you are having problems believing and ask him for whatever aid he can supply.
zeezrom Posted May 25, 2010 Author Posted May 25, 2010 By all means you should tell your Bishop where you are having problems believing and ask him for whatever aid he can supply.Why? What about the greater good, Jason? Nah, I think I'll look at the greater good and just say "Yes". Disclosing all that extra information will just muddy the water. I'll follow the example the church has set for me and make sure I look good on the outside.
Jason Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 Why? What about the greater good, Jason? Nah, I think I'll look at the greater good and just say "Yes". Disclosing all that extra information will just muddy the water. I'll follow the example the church has set for me and make sure I look good on the outside.You're following a straw man then.
William Schryver Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 On the Gospel Principles of www.lds.org, there is a page that covers the subject of honesty.It says, (Bold is mine)Upon learning some of the history of the church, I felt as if the church only ever intended to give me a portion of the truth and nothing more. I'm certain I could live my whole life without ever finding all the truth unless I veered off the beaten path of correlation and put in the effort to search in locations that I was told I should not go. I have close relatives (who are much older than me) who know nothing about much of church historic events. Is the church being honest? If so, how?Why does the church not incorporate apologia into their website www.lds.org for people that have questions? Why does correlation distance itself from the apologists? Are there apologists out there who wish the church would be more inclusive of your work?Thank you.It's comforting to me to know that someone has come to fill the void left by John Williams' banning: another passive aggressive apostate evangelist plying his trade on the MAD board. How sweet!As for the insinuation/allegation that the Church "lies" in some fashion or another, all I can say is that we have proven time and time again that upwards of 98% of everything the apostates have claimed to be "hidden" by the church has actually, at one time or another, been published, in broad daylight, in its official magazines.
David T Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 Wow, I really hit a nerve on this one. Is everything included in the JSPapers?everything that is an actual Joseph Smith Paper. William Clayton journalThat's not a Joseph Smith Paper., council of 50,...Yes, last I heard.Even so, will correlation include any of this? Will correlation include the rocks in the hat mode of translation so we can discuss it in SS and EQ/RS?Already has.
selek Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 Wow, I really hit a nerve on this one. Is everything included in the JSPapers? William Clayton journal, council of 50,...Even so, will correlation include any of this? Will correlation include the rocks in the hat mode of translation so we can discuss it in SS and EQ/RS?Zeezrom, Have you brought up a single point that HASN'T been discussed at least a thousand times ad nauseum?So far, you're just rehashing the usual pre-digested laundry list of Mormon-haters and apostates.Are you incapable of any REAL thought of your own, or must you mindlessly vomit up only the things that others have said?Yes- we know you think the Church is corrupt and fallen.Yes- we know you think that Jospeph was a pervert and a predator.Yes- we know you think that your vision of how God should and must operate is different than that of the Church and of faithful members. Yes- we know you think the Church's spending priorities are wrong.Yes- we know you think that your way is better than what faithful members believe.What we don't know is WHY we should trust your interpretations over those of good and godly men.What we don't know is WHY we should discount our own witness of the Prophets to join your crusade.What we don't know is WHY your interpretations trump those of wise and learned men, the undisputed facts, and a witness from the Holy Ghost.In short, just who the Hell are YOU to "cry repentance" unto this people?
zeezrom Posted May 25, 2010 Author Posted May 25, 2010 You're following a straw man then.I was joking. I plan to disclose because I agree with the statement on www.lds.org in important cases like this. I question the practices used by the church, however.But its okay, the people are good. It's just that the church is flawed.
selek Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 You're following a straw man then.No- he's worshipping an idol composed entirely on his own conceit and deceit.
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