Why Mormons are Leaving the Church

[jwhitlock]

Easy. Keep the gospel essentials class and have people go there until they "graduate" or as long as they want to attend thereafter.

Church administrative training, though largely a waste of time, should be kept as it is separate from the 3-hour block.

As to your final question, I suppose the Bishop's gift of discernment should be good for something.

How would you structure sacrament meeting - the whole thing, including the talks? Assigned? Reviewed? Unassigned topics? Only allow certain members to speak?

[zeezrom]

Seriously!? It's in The History of the Church, by B.H. Roberts; circa 1930.

More recently it was here: Monson Link

OK, let me set the record straight. Deb is right about this one. I possibly wasn't interested in this tidbit when it came in seminary, I don't know. I don't really care that Joseph had a gun. It doesn't really make a difference to me - it is still a sad thing that Joseph was gunned down.

[jwhitlock]

I wish you would have believed me a year or so ago when I mentioned that as a crucial cause. Then again, I provided virtually no substantive evidence to back it up.

I hadn't heard about this possible connection before. Interesting.

[rodheadlee]

Hold on. People know about polygamy.

It is the fact that JS married other men's wives etc, etc, etc, etc, that we did not know about.

Ok, I sorta buy that. The thing is, that me not being a MP bearer and not being sealed to my wife I understand the doctrine behind Joesph Smith being sealed to other men's wives. My wife could conceivably dump me for someone who will step up to the plate.

[zeezrom]

Ok, I sorta buy that. The thing is, that me not being a MP bearer and not being sealed to my wife I understand the doctrine behind Joesph Smith being sealed to other men's wives. My wife could conceivably dump me for someone who will step up to the plate.

Are you serious or joking about your wife dumping you? I can't tell.

[Deborah]

A lot of the additional meat that people are talking about is found in the Seminary and Institute programs and of course BYU. I think the church has to be very careful even there what is presented not because they want to hide anything but because so many things require background and context. It is like taking courses where you have to complete Course 1 before moving on to 2 then 3. The history of the church is very complicated and often sketchy. So much was going on at the time that it is hard to fathom how one could possibly capture it all on a level that people of many different abilities and backgrounds can comprehend.

For example though I knew Joseph Smith had lawsuits I had no comprehension how many and how pervasive they were in his life until I started listening to the Joseph Smith Papers Documentary. In fact many scholars had no idea until they started sorting through all the documents. When someone talks about Joseph's many wives and his relationships with them I have to laugh because he had to be Michael Keaton in "Multiplicity". He could not possibly have done all the things he is accused of doing when he was spending a large part of his life in the courtroom, in jails or in his ecclesiastical role as prophet and head of the church, in building communities and temples, or on the run.

The point is those who really want to learn will find the means to do so, and hopefully will use wisdom in selecting their sources. I really do not understand why anyone would turn to blatantly anti-Mormon sources to find the truth about the church, even when they can't find any other sources at the time. It just makes no sense to depend on people who have an agenda of destruction for your faith to find answers to your faith.

[rodheadlee]

Are you serious or joking about your wife dumping you? I can't tell.

She would never, we love each other aqnd we' will battle our problems until the end. But I understand that she COULD if she chose to do so. The doctrine is correct. Should she give up her place in the CK if I won't do what needs to be done? The way I understand it we won't even know each other in the TK. How can she get her family sealed to her if I cant't get my part done? None are LDS, none hold the MP.

[ttribe]

The way I understand it we won't even know each other in the TK.

I don't believe this is correct. However, there is no sealing and there is no progression.

[consiglieri]

How does your bishop feel about that?

My bishop is better than competent.

That's why he has such a good Gospel Doctrine teacher.

[jwhitlock]

My bishop is better than competent.

That's why he has such a good Gospel Doctrine teacher.

So in your ward, you don't have any of the problems we're discussing here, correct?

[LifeOnaPlate]

OK, let me set the record straight. Deb is right about this one. I possibly wasn't interested in this tidbit when it came in seminary, I don't know. I don't really care that Joseph had a gun. It doesn't really make a difference to me - it is still a sad thing that Joseph was gunned down.

zeezrom, you aren't alone in that sometime-disinterest. Here's my blaherign on the subject:

http://www.lifeongoldplates.com/2008/06/on-personal-responsibility-in-education.html

[rodheadlee]

I don't believe this is correct. However, there is no sealing and there is no progression.

Thanks.

[cinepro]

A lot of the additional meat that people are talking about is found in the Seminary and Institute programs and of course BYU.

No, not really. The CES manuals veer sharply to the right when it comes to anything remotely controversial.

Here's the Institute lesson for D&C 132. Here's the chapter on "Doctrinal Developments in Nauvoo" from the "Church History in the Fulness of Times" manual.

There's no mention of any of the aspects of polygamy that people find bothersome. It's a pretty plain-vanilla acknowledgment of the principle.

But we should probably be thankful for even that much, considering how the Church treats the issue on the website they've set up devoted to Joseph Smith:

Your search for polygamy has returned 0 results in JosephSmith.net.

Your search for "plural marriage" has returned 0 results in JosephSmith.net.

[Eric Blob]

Well, in one of my seminary manuals, it talks about polygamy being practiced after the Manifesto.

[John Larsen]

consiglieri:

That is a misuse of the term "non-falsifiable". The entire premise of any religion is non-falsifiable.

Not by definition. This is only the case since religions based on falsifiable premises tend to be falsified.

[John Larsen]

I wanted to learn.

But to answer my questions I often had to read a bunch of anti crap and then go dig up source material. It was a pain the A$S. Trying to understand Masonic/Mormon/Endowment connections in 1995 was ridiculous. I was alone. I relied on some Mormon scholars and the Tanner's, Decker, that one guy who owned Scalliwags Books. I ended up spending months at the UofU library studying Hammer, Jones, and Knoop. Finally, in 1997 I felt prepared to receive my own endowment. Wouldn't it have been nice if the Church had a 50pg book entitled, "A brief history of the endowment." That would have saved me more than a year in research and I would have felt better about the Church. Lucky I spoke and read English otherwise I would have been screwed. Plus, I honestly did feel like the Church was hiding something when I didn't learn about certain historical facts during the missionary lessons.

Praise God that I was truly converted and born again. Praise God that I continued to nourish my faith with the Gospel fundamentals. But were it not for that conversion I would have left..... as many do today.

Big UP!

Lamanite

A brilliant and useful post.

[Lamanite]

My Sunday School teacher always wants to "get through the lesson." He says this when we tend to be focusing on a subject for a time period that is longer than he feels comfortable with. Most often because he realizes that if we continue to focus on a certain item for a long period of time he wont get to the end of his prepared lesson.

Just last week, we discussed Moses and the Exodus. We touched on the basics and sped through a bunch of scriptures and made it to the end.

At one point I suggested we view Moses' experience on the Mountain as a temple text. I started to draw some parallel's to Ezekial, Nephi, Sermon on the Mount and the Sermon at the Temple (Thanks Jack W.). I kept it light, but was quickly shut down. I wasn't trying to teach, but I was trying to share why this text was so important to me. Shut down!!!

Then when we talked about the sacrament and the passover, I tried to discuss the place setting for Elijah and was quickly shut down because they insisted that seat is reserved for "Jesus." *Sigh* I gave up and tried to discuss Elijah's return to the Kirtland Temple during the passover season. I got no response.

My motives were sincere. I was not aggressive or prideful in my approach. I just wanted to share personal insights that enriched my reading of the text and my life.

We all know the basis of the exodus. Perhaps we could enhance our classroom discussions by focusing on a specific aspect of the lesson and drill down!

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Hamba Tuhan]

My Sunday School teacher always wants to "get through the lesson." He says this when we tend to be focusing on a subject for a time period that is longer than he feels comfortable with. Most often because he realizes that if we continue to focus on a certain item for a long period of time he wont get to the end of his prepared lesson.

From the 'Helps for the Teacher' section at the beginning of this year's (and every year's) Sunday school manual:

You normally should not give lectures but should try to help class members participate meaningfully in discussing the scriptures. As class members participate, they more effectively learn about the scriptures and better understand how to apply gospel principles. Seek the Spirit

[Lamanite]

From the 'Helps for the Teacher' section at the beginning of this year's (and every year's) Sunday school manual:

Maybe we should go back to having a teaching development coordinator so that the quality and type of instruction is reviewed and corrected when needed.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Deborah]

Maybe we should go back to having a teaching development coordinator so that the quality and type of instruction is reviewed and corrected when needed.

The only problem with the teaching development courses is that those who need it most never show. I know, I've taught it.

[zeezrom]

Maybe we should go back to having a teaching development coordinator so that the quality and type of instruction is reviewed and corrected when needed.

We have more than enough callings and meetings. I would have liked to explore your ideas you brought up in class.

[John Larsen]

Well, in one of my seminary manuals, it talks about polygamy being practiced after the Manifesto.

I would like to see that. Do you have a reference?

[Lamanite]

The only problem with the teaching development courses is that those who need it most never show. I know, I've taught it.

lol. Me too.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Jeff K.]

There are a number of people who could benefit from teacher development courses. Too many seem to think that what they see as "unique" or "weird" or "different" or "under speculation" use such as a crutch instead of teaching the implementation of doctrine in our lives. It shows a certain weakness in the ability of a teacher to make the class informative and meeting the objective of the manual which is the objective of Sunday School.

[Lamanite]

There are a number of people who could benefit from teacher development courses. Too many seem to think that what they see as "unique" or "weird" or "different" or "under speculation" use such as a crutch instead of teaching the implementation of doctrine in our lives. It shows a certain weakness in the ability of a teacher to make the class informative and meeting the objective of the manual which is the objective of Sunday School.

Are you opposed to taking 1 or 2 subjects (under the direction of the Spirit of course) from the lesson manual and exploring them in-depth?

Big UP!

Lamanite