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What does this saying of Jesus mean to you?


consiglieri

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The Gospel of Thomas purports to contain 114 Logia (sayings) of Jesus Christ.

Leaving aside the province of the Gospel of Thomas for the present, I was wondering what the following means to members of the Board:

Let those who seek continue seeking until they find. When they find, they will become troubled. When they become troubled, they will be astonished, and will rule over the All.

-Jesus Christ, Gospel of Thomas Logion 2.

Any thoughts?

Non-LDS perspectives welcome.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

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Actually, as I read that saying I thought it paralleled my own experiences.

I sought truth through study and experience (some experiences being thrust upon me) until I found it and it wasn't what I thought. I was astonished to find that it was so much more and, in some respects, so much less than I had previously believed. And now, though I don't rule over all (in terms of people), I do rule over the god of this world and expect to rule over much more (a righteous posterity) someday.

(Of course, the seeking is never really ending and I am increasingly less astonished at how astonishing the truth is...)

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Or maybe that the truth will set you free.

Discovery of the truth is a terrible thing.

It will shatter your fantasy world.

You will be left with no ground under your feet.

Which is precisely what must happen, before you can become "the last"

... so that when the "last becomes first," Reality is restored.

And if I told you this, when you were unready to hear it,

you would pick up stones to kill me --

... and those very stones would become fire in your hands.

"Tat Tvam Asi"

UD

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Discovery of the truth is a terrible thing.

It will shatter your fantasy world.

You will be left with no ground under your feet.

Which is precisely what must happen, before you can become "the last"

... so that when the "last becomes first," Reality is restored.

And if I told you this, when you were unready to hear it,

you would pick up stones to kill me --

... and those very stones would become fire in your hands.

"Tat Tvam Asi"

"Thou art G-d" -- Heinlein

USU "Gotta Grok It!" 78

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Let those who seek continue seeking until they find. When they find, they will become troubled. When they become troubled, they will be astonished, and will rule over the All.

If I were to read anything meaningful into this statement, regardless of its source, it would be from the perspective that "trouble" often means "stimulate," "agitate," or "instigate" into action, as in John 5:4-7. When we find with "real intent" we act very quickly and with diligence and heart. We are then often astonished with what we can do once we correctly apply and act on knowledge. The rest of the statement sounds overly contrived so as to sound mysterious, but "the All" ,to me, refers to truth and intelligence: "All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. (D&C 93:30)." To rule over it (existence, the "All") is to place it as God has.

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"Thou art G-d" -- Heinlein

...

There is no greater blasphemy in the biblical religion.

Even in Mormonism, we must "wait our turn" at ultimate deification.

"Jewish gnostics" are, by their very title, a total impossibility.

But, when our repentance is total - 100% - without a hint of residual self-centeredness,

... what THEN remains?

UD

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There is no greater blasphemy in the biblical religion.

Even in Mormonism, we must "wait our turn" at ultimate deification.

"Jewish gnostics" are, by their very title, a total impossibility.

But, when our repentance is total - 100% - without a hint of residual self-centeredness,

... what THEN remains?

UD

What does "rule over the All" in the Thomas alleged quote of the Master mean if not deification?

"The All" = haOlam, doesn't it?

USU "Desparately seeking joint-heirship" 78

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..."Desparately seeking joint-heirship"

You already have it.

While you live, your troubles are many, poor Jerusalem.

To conquer death, you only have to die.

You only have to die.

UD

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You already have it.

While you live, your troubles are many, poor Jerusalem.

To conquer death, you only have to die.

You only have to die.

Better to sing the ancient working song of the Pi Kapps:

Mary Margaret Truman was the daughter of the Prez,

She lived in the White House with her naughty mother, Bess,

Her social rating was not worth debating,

For she was the sweetheart of old Sigma Chi!

Back in '52 when old Harry got the shoe,

Mary Margaret Truman didn't know what the h*** to do,

So she went to Missouri and started a brewery,

So let's drink beer!

Drink beer! Oh come drink beer with me!

For it's not for knowledge that we go to college,

But to drink beer while we're . . .

Get drunk while we're . . .

Get a little while we're here!

USU "Can you grok at least that?" 78

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Though gnosticism does have a long and respectable history in Judaism.

So does Kabbalah --

But when I say that YHWH is the evil demiurge and that

I myself am The Almighty (at the core of my being),

those words might tend to get me thrown out of the

synagogue.

I'd be curious to read any unadulterated Jewish Gnostic scriptures.

UD

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...Can you grok at least that...

Transitory enjoyments slip through our fingers like sand in an hourglass.

As does transitory pain and transitory suffering.

Eternal Reality gives rise to both.

And annihilates both.

Uncle "in heaven there is no beer -- that's why we drink it here" Dale

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But when I say that YHWH is the evil demiurge and that I myself am The Almighty (at the core of my being), those words might tend to get me thrown out of the synagogue.

Didn't Jesus pretty much say just that?

And didn't he pretty much get thrown out of the synagogue?

USU "What manner of men ought ye to be?" 78

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So does Kabbalah --

But when I say that YHWH is the evil demiurge and that

I myself am The Almighty (at the core of my being),

those words might tend to get me thrown out of the

synagogue.

I'd be curious to read any unadulterated Jewish Gnostic scriptures.

UD

That, interestingly enough, would make you a Frankist.

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Actually, as I read that saying I thought it paralleled my own experiences.

I sought truth through study and experience (some experiences being thrust upon me) until I found it and it wasn't what I thought. I was astonished to find that it was so much more and, in some respects, so much less than I had previously believed. And now, though I don't rule over all (in terms of people), I do rule over the god of this world and expect to rule over much more (a righteous posterity) someday.

(Of course, the seeking is never really ending and I am increasingly less astonished at how astonishing the truth is...)

Reminded me of..

Philip. 3: 12

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

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And according to early rabbinical tradition, that would make you a Sadduccee.

Quite fascinating, in all honesty.

I suppose that those sons of Zadok had little interest in what

condiments were served amongst the heavenly host -- they simply

knew that they themselves would not be numbered among them.

I doubt they ever read past the first chapter of Daniel.

UD

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I suppose that those sons of Zadok had little interest in what

condiments were served amongst the heavenly host -- they simply

knew that they themselves would not be numbered among them.

I doubt they ever read past the first chapter of Daniel.

UD

I'll paraphrase it. Antigonus of Soko ssaid serve not the Lord as servants do for the sake of their allowance, but let the fear of Heaven be upon you. Several of his priestly disciples came to the conclusion that this meant that there was nothing in the life to come, indeed, no life to come, so they started eating from gold dishes (a way of saying behaved like epicureans), claiming that the pharisees don't do so now nor will they ever.

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The Gospel of Thomas purports to contain 114 Logia (sayings) of Jesus Christ.

Leaving aside the province of the Gospel of Thomas for the present, I was wondering what the following means to members of the Board:

Let those who seek continue seeking until they find. When they find, they will become troubled. When they become troubled, they will be astonished, and will rule over the All.

-Jesus Christ, Gospel of Thomas Logion 2.

Any thoughts?

Non-LDS perspectives welcome.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I don't know...hope this helps. :P

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...

nothing in the life to come

...

Evidently they'd never heard of Saul summoning up the shade

of Samuel from the oblivion of sheol.

Perhaps a visit to the Witch of Endor (or her successor)

was in order?

Was there never a mother of a Sadducean priest who raised

her son in righteousness? If not, I wonder why Jews trusted

them to manage the Temple of the Lord?

UD

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Transitory enjoyments slip through our fingers like sand in an hourglass.

As does transitory pain and transitory suffering.

Eternal Reality gives rise to both.

And annihilates both.

Uncle "in heaven there is no beer -- that's why we drink it here" Dale

Socrates raises his hoary head yet again . . . and Bill & Ted remind us to party on, dudes, and be excellent to each other.

As Kansas' greatest hit wafts through the air, via the golden tones of the Mighty Wurlitzer.

Yet we're left with the unanswered question of whether "rule the All" means anything particularly shocking in the context to the Master's other reported statements . . . and we cannot escape the message of/through JSJr that we are indeed perfectible and do indeed have a divine origin and destiny.

Is it such an awful thing, after all, to see ourselves in the context of a glorious eternity?

USU "In heaven there is no Tau, that's why we grok it now" 78

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To overcome, one must let go of linguistic confusion

Or as has been said, You gotta grok it dude.

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