What does this saying of Jesus mean to you?

[Uncle Dale]

...

JSJr

...

The process of samatha-bhavana can be likened to cleaning thick dust off the surface of a mirror. As we scrub the surface,

layer upon layer of dust falls away, gradually revealing the untainted surface of the mirror.

This can be likened to our own mind. Ordinarily our mind is afflicted with

many types of bad thoughts and dispositions which

prevent us from developing concentration.

These bad dispositions are

like the dust on

the mirror

UD

+

.

[handys003]

This is a corruption of what He might have actually said. It is deliberately obscure, so that the Gnostics can get you to come to them for the "true meaning".

This is the apocrypha. you know. I think it is a fake, a scam.

How do you think it's a scam. These books were found in a jar in 1945. It has been dated back to just after Christs death.

Now if you are inferring to scam as in a writer making it up back in that time period then you have to contend with the 4 NT concerning Christ gospels also could be fake.

[USU78]

The process of samatha-bhavana can be likened to cleaning thick dust off the surface of a mirror. As we scrub the surface, layer upon layer of dust falls away, gradually revealing the untainted surface of the mirror.

This can be likened to our own mind. Ordinarily our mind is afflicted with many types of bad thoughts and dispositions which prevent us from developing concentration.

These bad dispositions are like the dust on the mirror

Vanitas Vanitatum

USU "Ogres Have Layers" 78

[mfbukowski]

The process of samatha-bhavana can be likened to cleaning thick dust off the surface of a mirror. As we scrub the surface,

layer upon layer of dust falls away, gradually revealing the untainted surface of the mirror.

This can be likened to our own mind. Ordinarily our mind is afflicted with

many types of bad thoughts and dispositions which

prevent us from developing concentration.

These bad dispositions are

like the dust on

the mirror

UD

+

.

A pointed comment

[handys003]

The Gospel of Thomas purports to contain 114 Logia (sayings) of Jesus Christ.

Leaving aside the province of the Gospel of Thomas for the present, I was wondering what the following means to members of the Board:

Let those who seek continue seeking until they find. When they find, they will become troubled. When they become troubled, they will be astonished, and will rule over the All.

-Jesus Christ, Gospel of Thomas Logion 2.

Any thoughts?

Non-LDS perspectives welcome.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

You should have gone more into what the Gospel of Thomas was about instead of the direct quotes of Jesus first as to not confuse others.

To those who are wondering what and from where he's quoting:

"There is a growing consensus among scholars that the Gospel of Thomas

[Uncle Dale]

...Layers...

+

.

[Uncle Dale]

...

It was tossed out

...

margaritas ante porcos

UD

[Mudcat]

Let those who seek continue seeking until they find. When they find, they will become troubled. When they become troubled, they will be astonished, and will rule over the All.

-Jesus Christ, Gospel of Thomas Logion 2.

Any thoughts?

Non-LDS perspectives welcome.

Well, I think the GoT is gnostic bunk, this verse is just more proof of it. It is a far cry from being brothers and sisters in Christ, joint heirs and so forth. It seems to present itself as a way of saying that through continual searching you will ultimately reach a point in which you will find a way to have dominion over others("All").

I wonder if the author of the GoT thought that this was a path to rule over God, because God surely would be included in "All".

"All" is one of those type statements that lead to omni-somethingoranother if not restricted.

IMO, that is just flat heresy... and not the good kind of heresy either. That is the kind of heresy that will get you a one way ticket on A Streetcar Named Desire. That car has only got one stop and that stop sure ain't Tennessee Williams house.

[Uncle Dale]

...

gnostic bunk

...

We might call Joseph Smith's "translation" of the Bible "mormon bunk" as well --

but with Rigdon's and Smith's "improvements" removed, we are left with a fairly

usable KJV text. They did not totally destroy the original.

The Coptic Gospel of Thomas does indeed contain "gnostic bunk," -- but most of

those "improvements" are removable -- and, with that done, we are left with a fairly

usable set of Q-sayings, attributable to Jesus himself.

Fully orthodox, pious Christian scholars recognize the value of having this

second Q-saying source -- to compare and contrast with the similar set of

sayings in Luke and Matthew.

If you do not have the time or inclination to remove the "gnostic bunk,"

that's totally understandable.

UD

[Cold Steel]

Let those who seek continue seeking until they find. When they find, they will become troubled. When they become troubled, they will be astonished, and will rule over the all.

-Jesus Christ, Gospel of Thomas Logion 2.

Many of the sayings in the Gospel of Thomas are considered legitimate, and this saying is reasonable to me.

As a convert, it's difficult to describe the feeling one gets when they suddenly realize that what they've been reading is true. It is troubling for some initially, but if acted upon, it's troubling in a good way...astonishing, in fact. And once people come to this knowledge, they will in a way rule over all in that they will have knowledge that others don't. Knowledge is power, after all. My family also jointed the church and we all felt it. You want to go around handing out Books of Mormon and sharing it with others until you realize most people don't give a squat.

That's my take. I find the quote to be profound if it means what I take it to mean.

.

[Mudcat]

We might call Joseph Smith's "translation" of the Bible "mormon bunk" as well --

but with Rigdon's and Smith's "improvements" removed, we are left with a fairly

usable KJV text. They did not totally destroy the original.

The Coptic Gospel of Thomas does indeed contain "gnostic bunk," -- but most of

those "improvements" are removable -- and, with that done, we are left with a fairly

usable set of Q-sayings, attributable to Jesus himself.

Fully orthodox, pious Christian scholars recognize the value of having this

second Q-saying source -- to compare and contrast with the similar set of

sayings in Luke and Matthew.

If you do not have the time or inclination to remove the "gnostic bunk,"

that's totally understandable.

UD

Hey UD,

I do respect your opinion on the matter and agree with it in part.

However, in regards to the text cited in the OP, all I can gather from it is a path to omni-dominion of sorts in 6 easy steps.

1. Seek

2. Keep Seeking

3. Find

4. Become Troubled

5. Become Astonished

6. Rule over All

It is point 6 that I find to be heretical and troubling. Somehow, I don't equate the message of Christ as a path to me ruling everything and IMO it's a fairly blatant perversion of the Gospel.

I agree that in regards to scholarship, the GoT likely has some value. But in regards to practical usage of leading a person closer to Christ or a Christian walk in life, it has virtually none.

Regards,

Mudcat

[Blah]

According to this site, a Greek fragment reads this way:

[Jesus said,] "Let the one seek[ing] not stop [seeking until] he finds. And when he find[s he will marvel, and mar]veling he will reign, an[d reigning] he will [rest.]

[Uncle Dale]

...

It is point 6 that I find to be heretical and troubling.

...

It actually becomes heretical a little before that.

There is a progression of human spirituality alluded

to, which (for a gnostic or a Mormon) ends in personal

deification.

But, with the gnostic overtones removed, the reality there

hinted at is fully compatible with the ultimate destiny of

the Body of Christ and the ultimate destiny of joint-heirs.

The Eastern Orthodox Christians have a doctrine for this,

but it is clothed in so much humility and obscurity, that

you practically have to be an abbot to ever contemplate

what it means -- that, or a true Saint.

A super-literalistic Christian might come to the false

conclusion that he was among the elect, and selected to

reign with Christ for a thousand years -- being part of

the stone cut from the mountain, not by human hands,

which rolls through the world, crushing all human

governments and religions beneath its sacred power.

But that would be an egotistical misunderstanding of

what it means to "rule over all." It is not the rule

of the Saints over the wicked -- it is participation

in the kingdom of God. Not "kingdom" as a domain, but

rather, "kingdom" as in "kingship" or "administration."

A "kingdom" not of this world.

UD

[Uncle Dale]

According to this site, a Greek fragment reads this way:

[Jesus said,] "Let the one seek[ing] not stop [seeking until] he finds.

And when he find[s he will marvel, and mar]veling he will reign, an[d reigning] he will [rest.]

[mfbukowski]

Well, I think the GoT is gnostic bunk, this verse is just more proof of it. It is a far cry from being brothers and sisters in Christ, joint heirs and so forth. It seems to present itself as a way of saying that through continual searching you will ultimately reach a point in which you will find a way to have dominion over others("All").

I wonder if the author of the GoT thought that this was a path to rule over God, because God surely would be included in "All".

"All" is one of those type statements that lead to omni-somethingoranother if not restricted.

IMO, that is just flat heresy... and not the good kind of heresy either. That is the kind of heresy that will get you a one way ticket on A Streetcar Named Desire. That car has only got one stop and that stop sure ain't Tennessee Williams house.

I took it to mean "all that is worldly" - as in the promise in rev 3 and John 17 for those who "overcome" the world. I didn't take it as ruling over people at all.

[mercyngrace]

Well, I think the GoT is gnostic bunk, this verse is just more proof of it. It is a far cry from being brothers and sisters in Christ, joint heirs and so forth. It seems to present itself as a way of saying that through continual searching you will ultimately reach a point in which you will find a way to have dominion over others("All").

I wonder if the author of the GoT thought that this was a path to rule over God, because God surely would be included in "All".

"All" is one of those type statements that lead to omni-somethingoranother if not restricted.

IMO, that is just flat heresy... and not the good kind of heresy either. That is the kind of heresy that will get you a one way ticket on A Streetcar Named Desire. That car has only got one stop and that stop sure ain't Tennessee Williams house.

What needs to be reworked isn't the definition of "all" but your definition of dominion.

Christ alluded to what dominion is and how it is created when He said that the greatest among us would be our servant.

He taught the same principle as Jehovah in the OT "Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee."

Paul best enunciated the process of creating domionion when he explained that we love Christ because He first loved us.

A good example of dominion and how it is created is the virtuous woman described in the last chapter of Proverbs. She serves her family with selflessness and is undeterred in her efforts to care for them. Her every act is a manifestation of love for others. And in the end, they rise up and call her 'blessed'.

Cruel or forced subjugation is not dominion. Dominion is created when others have trust and faith in your honest, just, merciful, perfectly loving character and they willingly obey you and honor you.

[Uncle Dale]

...

Cruel or forced subjugation is not dominion.

...

I am glad to hear that the Mormons have finally discovered that fact.

Here is what they previously taught:

And it came to pass that there was a voice heard among all the inhabitants of the earth upon all the face of this land, crying, Wo, wo, wo unto this people; wo unto the inhabitants of the whole earth, except they shall repent, for the Devil laugheth, and his angels rejoice, because of the slain of the fair sons and daughters of my people; and it is because of their iniquity and abominations that they are fallen. Behold, that great city Zarahemla have I burned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof. And behold, that great city Moroni have I caused to be sunk in the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants to be drowned. And behold, that great city Moronihah have I covered with earth, and the inhabitants thereof, to hide their iniquities and their abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come up any more unto me against them. And behold, the city of Gilgal have I caused to be sunk, and the inhabitants thereof to be buried up in the depths of the earth; yea, and the city Onihah, and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Mocum, and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Jerusalem, and the inhabitants thereof, and waters have I caused to come up in the stead thereof, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come up any more unto me against them. And behold, the city of Gadiandi, and the city of Gadiomnah, and the city of Jacob, and the city of Gimgimno, all these have I caused to be sunk, and made hills and valleys in the places thereof, and the inhabitants thereof have I buried up in the depths of the earth, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up any more unto me against them. -- And behold, that great city Jacobugath, which was inhabited by the people of the king of Jacob, have I caused to be burned with fire, because of their sins and their wickedness, which was above all the wickedness of the whole earth, because of their secret murders and combinations: for it was they that did destroy the peace of my people and the government of the land; therefore I did cause them to be burned, to destroy them from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up unto me any more against them. And behold, the city of Laman, and the city of Josh, and the city of Gad, and the city of Kishkumen, have I caused to be burned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof, because of their wickedness in casting out the prophets, and stoning them which I did send to declare unto them concerning their wickedness and their abominations; and because they did cast them all out, that there were none righteous among them, I did send down fire and destroy them, that their wickedness and abominations might be hid from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints which I sent among them, might not cry unto me from the ground against them; and many great destructions have I caused to come upon this land, and upon this people, because of their wickedness and their abominations.

O all ye that are spared, because ye were more righteous than they!

http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/MEDIA/bm.htm#472a

and:

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter; and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

http://www.centerplace.org/hs/iv/iv-dan.htm

If the CofJCofLDS will disavow being the "stone was cut out of the mountain without hands,"

then I will agree that it has no intention of "breaking in pieces and consume all these kingdoms"

so that Mormonism "shall stand forever."

If, on the other hand, the Mormons interpret "dominion" in terms of their being the

political kingdom of God on earth, I will continue to have difficulties with them.

UD

[USU78]

If the CofJCofLDS will disavow being the "stone was cut out of the mountain without hands," then I will agree that it has no intention of "breaking in pieces and consume all these kingdoms" so that Mormonism "shall stand forever."

If, on the other hand, the Mormons interpret "dominion" in terms of their being the political kingdom of God on earth, I will continue to have difficulties with them.

Must Christians of all stripes give up all millenial hopes, then?

Must the Jews of Israel accept Shari'a, then?

USU "You're up awful early, Dale" 78

[SearchDog]

The Gospel of Thomas purports to contain 114 Logia (sayings) of Jesus Christ.

Leaving aside the province of the Gospel of Thomas for the present, I was wondering what the following means to members of the Board:

Let those who seek continue seeking until they find. When they find, they will become troubled. When they become troubled, they will be astonished, and will rule over the All.

-Jesus Christ, Gospel of Thomas Logion 2.

Any thoughts?

Non-LDS perspectives welcome.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

In my case, it rings of truth. During my conversion when I was seeking and finding and while being administered to by the heavens, by the Holy Spirit (and probably some unholy ones as well residing in me), and by the missionaries, many of the LDS doctrines troubled me as they became know to me. And I was astonished.

Astonished that we would be made gods in God, that in the priesthood we could become Eternal Fathers. Troubled by the similarity of this promise with the words of Satan tempting Adam and Eve with the fruit as the means to this end.

Astonished when the Holy Spirit of promise confirmed my reign in Christ over this earth; troubled because this matched the promise of sovereignty spoken to Jesus by the devil during His forty day fast in retreat before the commencement of His great mission of Atonement.

Astonished when I saw the eyes of the Lord upon me and troubled only be my sins and the knowledge of my unworthiness before Him.

Astonished at the miracle of forgiveness and troubled only by my duty to testify of all that He did for me that I might become a worthy ruler and king in Israel.

All was overcome by His word; I believed His promises only when I could find evidence of them in His word.

The Priest in Christ shall indeed rule over all.

[Uncle Dale]

...

Astonished that we would be made gods in God, that in the priesthood we could become Eternal Fathers.

...

Likewise, I was astonished to learn that Joseph Smith and The Twelve at Nauvoo

had been lying through their teeth, when they denied spiritual wifery was

being taught practiced among the leaders of that holy city.

I was astonished to read President Sidney Rigdon's contemporary disclosures and

denunciations of 1845-46, alongside the denials of The Twelve at Nauvoo.

I was astonished that the Reorganized LDS Church authorities sanitized

Rigdon's denunciations, so as to shield Joseph Smith, and make him out

as the monogamous prophet, whose church was perverted by the polygamous 12.

I was so astonished at this 160 years of holy lies, that I eventually left.

But that "astonishment" was as a grain of sand on an endless beach,

compared to the "astonishment" of Divine Union with the Holy One of Israel.

Mormons live in a low order fantasy world -- compared to the possibilities

they might comprehend, were they to expand their spiritual horizons.

UD

[mercyngrace]

Mormons live in a low order fantasy world -- compared to the possibilities

they might comprehend, were they to expand their spiritual horizons.

UD

I am similarly astonished, UD, by those who seem to prefer the type and shadow to the truth they imitate. Those who think the symbol is more significant than the symbolized and the ritual more significant than the truth it teaches. I am astonished that imagery framed in mortal terms deters men from seeing the real message from God embedded in the image.

And I would say that most people of all faiths live in a low order fantasy world -- compared to the possibilities they might comprehend, were they to expand their spiritual horizons.

[Uncle Dale]

...

the ritual more significant than the truth it teaches.

...

In the case of "the ritual" of holy communion, I would say that

"the ritual" IS "the truth," and any teaching that comes along

with it must, by definition, be secondary.

But, if by "the ritual," you mean the priestcraft that occludes

and sometimes nullifies ordinances, then I agree.

God's truth is far more "significant" than any human teaching,

or any man-made ritual.

In some cases "the ritual" allows us to let go of our selfish

thoughts and motives -- to temporarily experience what it means

to be part of a larger body of worshipers -- a hint at what it

can mean to be the Body of Messiah. That can be a very

valuable "truth," if thus "taught."

In some cases "the ritual" is "gnostic bunk" or some other

sort of manipulation by impostors who seek to dazzle us with

smoke and mirrors.

Wisdom lies in our discerning that difference.

A Wisdom that comes not of our human efforts.

UD

[Uncle Dale]

Must Christians of all stripes give up all millenial hopes, then?

Must the Jews of Israel accept Shari'a, then?

...

No more so than the good people of Hancock County needed to accept the Nauvoo Legion.

No more so than the good people of Judea needed to accept the Roman legions.

In fact, their heirs eventually conquered Rome -- and then Rome subtly re-conquered the Christians.

The worldly course is a revolving carousel -- but there is a way to step off of it.

The Way will not be punctuated by a descent of Christ to the millennial temple in Jackson County.

Sorry about that.

UD

[USU78]

No more so than the good people of Hancock County needed to accept the Nauvoo Legion.

No more so than the good people of Judea needed to accept the Roman legions.

In fact, their heirs eventually conquered Rome -- and then Rome subtly re-conquered the Christians.

The worldly course is a revolving carousel -- but there is a way to step off of it.

The Way will not be punctuated by a descent of Christ to the millennial temple in Jackson County.

Sorry about that.

Dale has far more faith in humans' ability to solve their own problems than I do.

Which is to his credit.

Me? I think it takes a G-d to get people to act decent.

The Greeks understood this: only the deus ex machina could unravel human-made un-un-tiable knots without violence; people take the Alexander approach to problem-solving, the sword.

USU "Memo: Don't ever be a prosecutor ever again" 78

[Uncle Dale]

Dale has far more faith in humans' ability to solve their own problems than I do.

...

Or than John Calvin did.

Imagine my g-g-grandfather's delight, when his patriarchal blessing

told him he was a true descendant of Ephraim -- and thus among the

elect -- chosen from before the foundation of the world, to avenge

the blood of The Martyrs upon the State of Illinois, and to bring

forth and establish a "redeemed" Zion, not to be removed from her place.

Predestined from all eternity to play such a puppet's role in our

latter day epic. But then the patriarch added a final clause --

"if ye remain faithful..."

John Calvin, with an escape clause.

UD