"Mormon Scholars Testify"

[Nofear]

PS: Do I get to add Jaybear to the list of DrW, Paul344, and Expose? Your commentary seems strongly to imply their position.

[SlackTime]

This is why critics on other forums find the whole thing rather bizarre.

I am impressed by his willingness to speak for all those critics on "other forums". I wonder if he truly has been given authority to speak for them? Or perhaps he has some great mindreading ability so that he can know why they find something bizarre. I knew, or at least suspected, that our critics had been developing awesome mindreading skills since they so often use them to expound on the motivations and beliefs of Joseph Smith and other early Church members, but I didn't realize that they turned those awesome powers on their forum members and fellow critics!

- SlackTime

[mfbukowski]

Whoever decided to create and maintain a website, which advertises an ongoing collection of testimonies from Mormon scholars. That's no small task.

I've never heard this, at least not in a way that was meant, or meant to be taken, seriously. One might as well say, only stupid people become Mormons. Do any of us really believe there are people out there who think no person alive is both Mormon and formally educated? These ridiculous statements are no more significant than Utah fans saying only losers root for BYU.

You're obviously a highly intelligent individual, which makes one wonder if this website has less to do with responding to silly claims and more to do with gloating that Mormonism claims so many bright minds. And I suspect that most non-LDS might see it that way too.

Again, if you could refer us to these claims it would give more credence to your argument that this is all you're really trying to do.

Well for starters, it would undermine anyone trying to imply that a person's testimony was shaped as a result of their formal education. People who begin with testimonies can, and often do, manufacture support for their beliefs deriving from just about anything they want. An uneducated Mormon might spend the rest of his days sitting on a mountain side, and I'm certain he will be able to write a thousand journal pages about how his experience has strengthened his testimony.

Well, how common is it, really? Are you referring to anonymous posters online, or is there something concrete you can reference? And it seems to me that the criticism could easily be neutralized by providing a list of Mormon scholars. Soliciting and then advertising their testimonies seems to serve a different agenda, and after reading Kent Jackson's "testimony," it seems to be more of a missionary effort than apologetic. He also throws out a cheap shot straw man against atheists, who unlike most theists, can usually attribute formal education to their position on God. Atheism isn't based on the argument he presents (i.e. I haven't experienced it, therefore it doesn't exist), and to call it unscientific is really ironic, since there is nothing scientific about the Mormon understanding of what's true. Sincere prayer and good feelings, doesn't a true Church make.

Not disturbed, just trying to figure out what the purpose is in a way that makes sense. Your argument seems fine on the surface, but you seem to be going well above and beyond what is needed to neutralize what would seem to be a very non-serious and insincere criticism.

Dude, let me give you some friendly advice. Sit this one out, read a bunch of threads, find out what this board is about, figure out who posts regularly and who they are, and then come on as strong as you like. You don't have a clue right now. But hang out, and you will learn.

[Nemesis]

Dude, let me give you some friendly advice. Sit this one out, read a bunch of threads, find out what this board is about, figure out who posts regularly and who they are, and then come on as strong as you like. You don't have a clue right now. But hang out, and you will learn.

Kevin has a long hostile history here. Nothing you say and do will help him, his is permanently banned expect another sockpuppet of his in a month or so. The best thing to do is ignore him completely.

Nemesis

[mfbukowski]

Kevin has a long hostile history here. Nothing you say and do will help him, his is permanently banned expect another sockpuppet of his in a month or so. The best thing to do is ignore him completely.

Nemesis

Gee, maybe I should "Sit this one out, read a bunch of threads, find out what this board is about, figure out who posts regularly"

Nah!

[Daniel Peterson]

Kevin you are still not welcome here, and as always your posts will be deleted.

LOL. That was Kevin?

No wonder.

[Daniel Peterson]

By the way, Clayton Christensen's testimony is now up on "Mormon Scholars Testify."

It's a good one.

[Gervin]

By the way, Clayton Christensen's testimony is now up on "Mormon Scholars Testify."

I'm enjoying reading the testifyin'

It's a good one.

I especially like this nugget:

I actually have come to feel badly for my friends who belong to faiths in which professional clergy are employed

[Joseph Antley]

I especially like this nugget:

I actually have come to feel badly for my friends who belong to faiths in which professional clergy are employed

[Gervin]

I don't think you understood what you quoted.

I thought the statement was fairly cogent. But feel free to learn me up ... I certainly wouldn't be featured on a scholars who testify page.

[Daniel Peterson]

I view this through an apostate lens.

We know this, and so we try to be charitable to you.

[Gervin]

We know this, and so we try to be charitable to you.

Anymore charity of the type Clayton Christensen gives and I'll be downright joyless.

[Daniel Peterson]

Anymore charity of the type Clayton Christensen gives and I'll be downright joyless.

I might mention, incidentally, that Clayton is one of the finest men I've ever known. And one of the kindest.

[Gervin]

I might mention, incidentally, that Clayton is one of the finest men I've ever known. And one of the kindest.

I might mention that I don't know him but that he obviously has very interesting friends of different faiths who all feel obligated to "outsource" to their pastors, priests, or paid clergy the responsibility for caring for or teaching all the members of the church. He wouldn't find the paid staff at my church doing all the heavy lifting ... and he would be hard-pressed to characterize our members as lacking in joy.

[Daniel Peterson]

I might mention that I don't know him but that he obviously has very interesting friends of different faiths who all feel obligated to "outsource" to their pastors, priests, or paid clergy the responsibility for caring for or teaching all the members of the church. He wouldn't find the paid staff at my church doing all the heavy lifting ... and he would be hard-pressed to characterize our members as lacking in joy.

If that were the roughest, harshest sort of comment (routinely) made about my faith and my church by Protestants, I would think that I'd died and gone to heaven!

[Gervin]

If that were the roughest, harshest sort of comment (routinely) made about my faith and my church by Protestants, I would think that I'd died and gone to heaven!

yeah, comments made out of ignorance are a drag

[noel00]

When is the guy from Sydney putting his story up? One guy I was interesed in is Dr Foster who appreared on Mormonstories. He was teaching philosophy at BYU. His was an interesting story.

[Daniel Peterson]

When is the guy from Sydney putting his story up?

He said that he would do it during his Christmas break. I can only wait.

One guy I was interesed in is Dr Foster who appreared on Mormonstories. He was teaching philosophy at BYU. His was an interesting story.

That name isn't familiar to me. Sorry.

[Daniel Peterson]

yeah, comments made out of ignorance are a drag

Must . . . not . . . make . . . painfully . . . obvious . . . reply.

[Gervin]

Must . . . not . . . make . . . painfully . . . obvious . . . reply.

Ahh, but you did, in your own charitable way.

[Daniel Peterson]

Ahh, but you did, in your own charitable way.

It appears that I need to make liberal use of smiley faces. I hate them, personally, but some folks apparently need them in order to be reassured that I'm not a monster. So here are two, one for future use and the other for purposes of remediation:

Unfortunately, this board doesn't permit us to multiply happy faces as much as I would like, but here are two more, just in case they're needed:

[Gervin]

It appears that I need to make liberal use of smiley faces. I hate them, personally, but some folks apparently need them in order to be reassured that I'm not a monster. So here are two, one for future use and the other for purposes of remediation:

Unfortunately, this board doesn't permit us to multiply happy faces as much as I would like, but here are two more, just in case they're needed:

What aileth the good Dr? No one called you a monster. Defend the words of Dr. Christensen if you

[Gervin]

Off- topic but a better note (pun) to end on .. & I'm out for the evening.

I like to make music-mix tapes for friends and this time of the year gets me going with the holiday music. Three song recommendations in the spirit of the holidays:

I Know That My Redeemer Liveth - Jane Siberry

God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen - Loreena McKennitt

Auld Lange Syne - Martin Sexton

Joy!

[Daniel Peterson]

I don't, and won't, argue about people's testimonies -- not my own, and certainly not anybody else's.

I asked these people to write. They wrote what they wanted to write. I posted what they wrote. These are personal statements. If you have a problem with his testimony, you're perfectly welcome to communicate with Professor Christensen. He can be reached via Harvard University, or via his personal website:

http://www.claytonchristensen.com/

[LifeOnaPlate]

No. You think you have laid out a rational grounds. But your rationality begins with a preexisting belief in the supernatural, when such a belief is not by definition rational.

Outright nonsensical.