Mountain Meadows Massacre

[Doctor Steuss]

I looked and didn't notice that anyone had done a thread on this (if there is one, please hook me up with a link).

Did anyone catch the special on the (Revisionist) History Channel last night on the Mountain Meadows Massacre? I was at the gym, so I didn't really get much from it (other than Bagley, Turley [at least I think it was him), and Denton all made appearances).

Thoughts? Comments? Worth me setting my DVR up to record one of the inevitable 300 repeats?

Edit: Link To "History" Channel Dilly

[Joseph Antley]

I didn't even know about this.

[structurecop]

Don't worry, there will be a marathon day when they play it back-to-back for 8 hours. Although I have thoroughly enjoyed the recent specials on the Knights Templar and Masonry (whether terribly factual or not).

[Doctor Steuss]

Don't worry, there will be a marathon day when they play it back-to-back for 8 hours. Although I have thoroughly enjoyed the recent specials on the Knights Templar and Masonry (whether terribly factual or not).

I watched about 10 minutes of one of those (while flipping through channels). I think they had some conspiracy nut talking though, so I changed over to some Spongebob Squarepants. I've been meaning to set the DVR up for one of them so I can watch it from the beginning.

I'm just waiting for another run of Band of Brothers. I don't have HBO (so I didn't get to see it originally), and during the multiple runs on HC, there were a few episodes that I missed. Brilliant series.

[Zakuska]

"They buried the dead at the Mountain Meadows site and an elaborate cover-up ensued. Some 20 years later, Lee was executed on the site for the crime--the only one punished. Then, in 1999, a backhoe operator unearthed a mass grave, and forensic anthropologist Shannon Novak made astonishing discoveries--until the governor (one of the murderers' descendants) ordered the bones reburied. But it was too late, the ghosts had spoken and a new story emerged, implicating religious authorities in the mass murder."

A clasic peace of Anti-Mormon writing. Way to stir up the contraversy...

[Daniel Peterson]

I didn't see it and hadn't heard that it was going to be shown last night, but I did see a thread on the oddly-named "Recovery" board in which several of those "recovering," plainly inflamed by the show into even more vigorous "recovery," expressed contempt for Rick Turley and the other authors of Massacre at Mountain Meadows for failing to deal with the aftermath of the Massacre (e.g., Brigham Young's alleged cover-up, and the like).

They evidently failed to notice the fact that Massacre at Mountain Meadows, as it itself explains, is the first volume of a two-volume work, and that, as the first volume itself indicates, the second volume will deal, precisely, with the aftermath of the Massacre.

I mention this just in case anybody here happens to be afflicted with the same basic incapacity to read.

[structurecop]

I watched about 10 minutes of one of those (while flipping through channels). I think they had some conspiracy nut talking though, so I changed over to some Spongebob Squarepants. I've been meaning to set the DVR up for one of them so I can watch it from the beginning.

If you can make it through the conspiracy nuts, there's some decent commentary.

I'm just waiting for another run of Band of Brothers. I don't have HBO (so I didn't get to see it originally), and during the multiple runs on HC, there were a few episodes that I missed. Brilliant series.

Definitely. If you get an opportunity to see Generation Kill (I think you can rent the DVDs now) I highly recommend that series as well.

[cinepro]

Thoughts? Comments? Worth me setting my DVR up to record one of the inevitable 300 repeats?

Edit: Link To "History" Channel Dilly

Is this a new show? I saw a MMM show on HS about 8 years ago that wasn't too bad. Ultimately, there really isn't any way to tell the story in a way that is comfortable for LDS, but there isn't any reason (other than ignorance on the part of the producers) to go overboard with unfounded conspiracy theories.

But when it comes to the Mountain Meadows Massacre, I'm not so sure I would accuse the History Channel, or any modern theory, of being "revisionist history", considering the state of that history for the last 100+ years.

[LifeOnaPlate]

They evidently failed to notice the fact that Massacre at Mountain Meadows, as it itself explains, is the first volume of a two-volume work, and that, as the first volume itself indicates, the second volume will deal, precisely, with the aftermath of the Massacre.

One of the things that surprised me most as a new missionary a few years ago was that missionaries weren't perfect. Some of them didn't even study the scriptures that much, or have (what I felt was) a good enough grasp on what we were sent to teach. My expectations slammed into the wall of reality.

One of the things that surprised me most about reading the complaints of people on the recovery board and other boards was how little they really knew about the things they were spending so much time complaining about. We have critics who complain that the Church is hiding information about Joseph Smith who have still not heard of the Joseph Smith Papers Project. And if they have heard of the project they don't really know anything about it. Many haven't so much as attempted to get a good grasp of the very thing they are complaining about. When it comes to the MMM books, I think this is another case in point. I remember an incredibly long conversation around the time the first MMM book came out amongst those who not only hadn't read it yet, but they also had no plans to read it either. I think one or two of them might have eventually read it. By then I was on to other books.

[consiglieri]

"They buried the dead at the Mountain Meadows site and an elaborate cover-up ensued. Some 20 years later, Lee was executed on the site for the crime--the only one punished. Then, in 1999, a backhoe operator unearthed a mass grave, and forensic anthropologist Shannon Novak made astonishing discoveries--until the governor (one of the murderers' descendants) ordered the bones reburied. But it was too late, the ghosts had spoken and a new story emerged, implicating religious authorities in the mass murder."

Was that Mountain Meadows or the Kennewick Man?

(Nice to see you back, Zak!)

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Doctor Steuss]

Is this a new show? [...]

Yeppers.

But when it comes to the Mountain Meadows Massacre, I'm not so sure I would accuse the History Channel, or any modern theory, of being "revisionist history", considering the state of that history for the last 100+ years.

My dig on the channel (i.e. "revisionist") wasn't aimed at this special (I didn't, after all, even get to see enough of it to make any form of judgment), but the channel as a whole.

I've just noticed, the few times they've done a subject I actually know something about, that they like to sometimes sacrifice accuracy for general watch-ability (if that makes sense).

That, and I enjoy not liking things. Makes me feel powerful (tremble before me, things I don't like). And, I've noticed I have a penchant for pretentiousness.

---------------------------------

Dr. Peterson,

As someone on the "inside," do you happen to have any updates on the general ETA for the second volume?

Hopefully not summer of 2018...

Edit:

Scott Lloyd, you out there? You sometimes know stuff about stuff.

[gmormon]

Yeppers.

...

Dr. Peterson,

As someone on the "inside," do you happen to have any updates on the general ETA for the second volume?

Hopefully not summer of 2018...

Edit:

Scott Lloyd, you out there? You sometimes know stuff about stuff.

Have you checked this one out yet?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0842527230/ref=s9_simz_gw_s8_p14_t1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-3&pf_rd_r=0E6SAWEZSYPD164JJEEJ&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938811&pf_rd_i=507846

[Doctor Steuss]

Have you checked this one out yet?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0842527230/ref=s9_simz_gw_s8_p14_t1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-3&pf_rd_r=0E6SAWEZSYPD164JJEEJ&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938811&pf_rd_i=507846

Negative.

Do you know if it is just a collection of source material, or is there commentary?

[Zakuska]

This one looks promising... at least it resisted the sensationalism... Unlike the (Revisionist) History Channel... Any one read it?

House of Mourning

A Biocultural History of the Mountain Meadows Massacre

Shannon A. Novak

On September 11, 1857, some 120 men, women, and children from the Arkansas hills were murdered in the remote desert valley of Mountain Meadows, Utah. This notorious massacre was, in fact, a mass execution: having surrendered their weapons, the victims were bludgeoned to death or shot at point-blank range. The perpetrators were local Mormon militiamen whose motives have been fiercely debated for 150 years. In House of Mourning, Shannon A. Novak goes beyond the question of motive to the question of loss. Who were the victims at Mountain Meadows? How had they settled and raised their families in the American South, and why were they moving west once again? What were they hoping to find or make for themselves at the end of the trail? By integrating archival records and oral histories with the first analysis of skeletal remains from the massacre site, Novak offers a detailed and sensitive portrait of the victims as individuals, family members, cultural beings, and living bodies.

The history of the massacre has often been treated as a morality tale whose chief purpose was to vilify (or to glorify) some collective body. Resisting this tendency to oversimplify the past, Novak explores Mountain Meadows as a busy and dangerous intersection of cultural and material forces in antebellum America. House of Mourning is a bold experiment in a new kind of history, the biocultural analysis of complex events.

http://1857massacre....of_mourning.htm

[gmormon]

Negative.

Do you know if it is just a collection of source material, or is there commentary?

From what I understand it is original source material

[Doctor Steuss]

From what I understand it is original source material

Groovy.

I'll have to see if I can find out more about it. If it's only copies of original source material, I will definitely have to pass on it. My ability to read 19th century handwriting is next to non-existent. If it has transcriptions, then it might be worth picking up... but I'm trying to be moderate since I temporarily lifted my book-buying-ban.

I remember there being mention, after the first volume was published, that the original source material would be published. For some reason though, I thought it was going to be done on a website, or series of computer discs(?)

[gmormon]

Groovy.

I'll have to see if I can find out more about it. If it's only copies of original source material, I will definitely have to pass on it. My ability to read 19th century handwriting is next to non-existent. If it has transcriptions, then it might be worth picking up... but I'm trying to be moderate since I temporarily lifted my book-buying-ban.

I remember there being mention, after the first volume was published, that the original source material would be published. For some reason though, I thought it was going to be done on a website, or series of computer discs(?)

From the description below neither one of us will have to strain our brain cells to much ! BTW can I borrow your copy when you get it, my finances are tight right now ?

About this edition:

ISBN13: 9780842527231

ISBN: 0842527230

Edition: Illustrated

About the book:

Description: LDS Church historian Andrew Jenson and St. George, UT attorney and judge David H. Morris conducted several interviews with people associated with the Mountain Meadows Massacre. For the first time ever, full-color plates and meticulous facing transcriptions of these documents give readers unprecedented access to these materials.

[cjcampbell]

There is precious little "history" on the History Channel. It is merely a few historical facts, mingled with myths.

[structurecop]

There is precious little "history" on the History Channel. It is merely a few historical facts, mingled with myths.

I'll remember that next time they try to justify the historicity of the Israelite exodus.

[cjcampbell]

I'll remember that next time they try to justify the historicity of the Israelite exodus.

Well, I guess you get to choose whose history you believe. If you think the History Channel's account of the Mountain Meadows Massacre is somehow more accurate than their account of the Exodus, be my guest. But please do not pretend to factual knowledge that you do not have.

[handys003]

Hmmm....I wonder why the History Channel doesn't cover the following?

Aug. 6, 1838 - A mob attacked about 12 members as they attempted to vote at Gallatin, Daviess County, Mo.

- Sept. 21, 1838 - The saints were ordered to leave De Witt by Oct. 1.

- Oct. 17-18, 1838 - Mobs burned saints' homes in Daviess County.

- Oct. 25, 1838 - Apostle David W. Patten and Patrick O'Bannion were killed at the Battle of Crooked River, near Far West.

- Oct. 27, 1838 - Gov. Lilburn W. Boggs issued the order for the state militia to "exterminate" or drive Mormons from Missouri.

- Oct. 30, 1838 - Mob killed 17 saints at Haun's Mill, Mo.

- Nov. 1, 1838 - Joseph Smith and others were sentenced at a court martial to be shot at Far West. Gen. Alexander W. Doniphan of the Missouri militia refused to carry out the order.

- November 1838 - Approximately 50 LDS men, taken as prisoners at Far West, arrived Nov. 12 at Richmond, Mo., for trial. Joseph Smith and others were committed in Liberty, Clay County, Mo., for trial.

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/18647/Hardship-persecution-continue-as-LDS-move-to-northern-Missouri.html

[structurecop]

Hmmm....I wonder why the History Channel doesn't cover the following?

I don't see anything about Arkansas or southern Utah in there, did I miss it?

[handys003]

I don't see anything about Arkansas or southern Utah in there, did I miss it?

I just looked up James Buchanans "Blunder"

In March 1857, Buchanan received false reports that Governor Brigham Young of the Mormon-dominated Utah Territory was planning a revolt. In November of that year, Buchanan sent the Army to replace Young as Governor with the non-Mormon Alfred Cumming before either confirming the reports or notifying Young that he was about to be replaced. Years of anti-Mormon rhetoric in Washington, combined with denouncements and lurid descriptions of both the Mormon practice of polygamy and the intentions of the President and the Army in eastern newspapers, led the Mormons to expect the worst. Young called up a militia of several thousand men to defend the Territory and sent a small band to harass and delay the Army from entering it. Providentially, the early onset of winter forced the Army to camp in present-day Wyoming, allowing for negotiations between the Territory and the federal government. Poor planning, the Army's inadequate supplies, and the failure of the President to verify the reports of rebellion and warning the territorial government of his intentions led to widespread condemnation of Buchanan from Congress and the press, who labeled the war "Buchanan's Blunder". When Young agreed to be replaced by Cumming and to allow the Army to enter the Utah Territory and establish a base, Buchanan attempted to save face by issuing proclamations detailing his merciful pardoning of the "rebels". These were poorly received by both Congress and the inhabitants of Utah. The troops, in any case, would soon be recalled to the East when the Civil War erupted.

[katherine the great]

"They buried the dead at the Mountain Meadows site and an elaborate cover-up ensued. Some 20 years later, Lee was executed on the site for the crime--the only one punished. Then, in 1999, a backhoe operator unearthed a mass grave, and forensic anthropologist Shannon Novak made astonishing discoveries--until the governor (one of the murderers' descendants) ordered the bones reburied. But it was too late, the ghosts had spoken and a new story emerged, implicating religious authorities in the mass murder."

A clasic peace of Anti-Mormon writing. Way to stir up the contraversy...

I don't see a single word of fiction in that quote. If you've read the book by Turley, Walker and Leonard, I think you will understand that all of those things are true. There is no doubt that religious authorities were involved in this heinous crime.

[why me]

One of the things that surprised me most about reading the complaints of people on the recovery board and other boards was how little they really knew about the things they were spending so much time complaining about. We have critics who complain that the Church is hiding information about Joseph Smith who have still not heard of the Joseph Smith Papers Project. And if they have heard of the project they don't really know anything about it. Many haven't so much as attempted to get a good grasp of the very thing they are complaining about. When it comes to the MMM books, I think this is another case in point. I remember an incredibly long conversation around the time the first MMM book came out amongst those who not only hadn't read it yet, but they also had no plans to read it either. I think one or two of them might have eventually read it. By then I was on to other books.

This is not uncommon. People who have left the lds church and post on the internet, epspecially on the recovery board, will not change their position easily. They have too much at stake for a more favorable opinion to set in. Most will cling to the same mantra and also get support from other board members.

And yes, the JSP will be a wonderful counter for those who believe that the lds church is hiding its history. Also, critics never take context into account when discussion MMM. No one to my knowledge on the internet mentions the persecution the saints experienced in Nauvoo and in Missouri as a possible pretext for the massacre. This is not to create an excuse but many of the people settling Utah remembered or heard stories about the persecution will just a little shy of gentiles coming to the land or even through the land.

But, critics on the recovery board can not change their idea or even straighten out their opinions from new knowledge about the church as found in the JSP that is coming to light.