Saturn Stone

[mfbukowski]

I don't even have a table.

That's too bad. I guess you can't have any books then. They can be useful.

[ebeddoulos]

The Salt Lake Temple does not have Saturn Stones, at least according to the following 1978 New Era Article:

"It is interesting to note that while Truman O. Angellâ??s drawings show the temple in striking clarity and completeness, there are a few places where the actual structure deviated from Angellâ??s original drawings. Angellâ??s 1854 drawing of the temple exterior shows Saturn stones, each complete with rings, directly above the sun stones. They appear nowhere on the temple. Cloud stones appear only twice on the temple as it was completed, but they adorned all six towers in this early drawing." LDS Website Article

[mfbukowski]

The Salt Lake Temple does not have Saturn Stones, at least according to the following 1978 New Era Article:

Well I already admitted I don't have the book anymore. But I didn't make it up- how would anyone figure out that a disk with a circle around it would be "Saturn" seen from the top-- and then find those designs right where the sketches showed the "saturn stones" should be?

I know for a fact that is a quote from the book that I no longer have. I think I have a tough case here, but I didn't make it up. Couldn't have. Symbolism is my deal and I would have never figured that out on my own. I didn't even remember that when we had a thread on the Las Vegas temple a while back where there are circles inside of squares. But I can't prove it at the moment.

[Sevenbak]

Yes. I mean, no. You aren't losing your marbles. Yes, I think you are right.

Here is an image:

FWIW... some LDS authors have denied that Saturn symbolism is on the temple. I think they are mistaken, however.

Those aren't saturn stones, they are earth stones.

Here's the list of specialized stones on the SL Temple. If you follow this link to the Church's site on the SL Temple, the different stones pop up as images when you scroll over the link. Can't do that here.

http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/saltlake/

Earthstones. The earthstones, located at the base of each buttress, represent the earthâ??the "footstool of God." Although the earth is currently a telestial kingdom, it will transition to a terrestrial kingdom at the coming of the Millennium; and at the end of one thousand years, it is destined to become a celestial kingdom.

Moonstones. Located directly above the earthstones, the moon is depicted in its various phases around the temple. The changing moon can represent the stages of human progression from birth to resurrection or represent the patron's journey from darkness to light.

Sunstones. Located directly about the moonstones, the sunstones depict the sunâ??a symbol of the glory of the celestial kingdom.

Cloudstones. High above the sunstones on the east center tower are two clouds with descending rays of light (originally planned to be one white and one black with descending trumpets.) The parallel of this symbolism is found in the Old Testament. Once temples were dedicated in ancient Israel, they were filled with the "cloud of the Lord." At Mount Sinai, the children of Israel saw this cloud as both dark and bright accompanied by the blasting of a trumpet.

Starstones. Six-pointed stars represent the actual stars in the heaven. Upside-down five-pointed stars represent morning stars, compared to the "sons of God" in the scriptures. The large upright five-pointed stars may represent the governing power of the priesthood while the small upright five-pointed stars may represent the saving power of the priesthood for those who attach themselves to it.

Big Dipper. High on the west center tower is a depiction of the Big Dipper, a constellation used by travelers for thousands of years to find the North Star. It is an appropriate symbol for the temple where patrons come to get their bearings on the journey home.

Handclasp. Each of the center towers features a pair of clasped right hands identified as the "right hands of fellowship" cited in Galatians 2:9. In Jeremiah 31:32, the Lord uses the handclasp to denote covenant makingâ??an act at the very heart of temple worship.

All-Seeing Eye. Located atop each of the center towers of the temple is the all-seeing eye of God, which represents God's ability to see all things.2

[ebeddoulos]

Well I already admitted I don't have the book anymore. But I didn't make it up- how would anyone figure out that a disk with a circle around it would be "Saturn" seen from the top-- and then find those designs right where the sketches showed the "saturn stones" should be?

I know for a fact that is a quote from the book that I no longer have. I think I have a tough case here, but I didn't make it up. Couldn't have. Symbolism is my deal and I would have never figured that out on my own. I didn't even remember that when we had a thread on the Las Vegas temple a while back where there are circles inside of squares. But I can't prove it at the moment.

Sorry, bud. My comment was not directed at you in particular; just at the whole concept behind the thread. I just find it amusing that anti-Mormons make such a fuss over architectural features that are not even in existence. Shucks, I'm probably the only one who sees the humor which speaks volumes about the innner workings of what little is left of my mind.

[Mike Reed]

Those aren't saturn stones, they are earth stones.

I don't agree. See below.

Here's the list of specialized stones on the SL Temple. If you follow this link to the Church's site on the SL Temple, the different stones pop up as images when you scroll over the link. Can't do that here.

http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/saltlake/

Earthstones. The earthstones, located at the base of each buttress, represent the earthâ??the "footstool of God." Although the earth is currently a telestial kingdom, it will transition to a terrestrial kingdom at the coming of the Millennium; and at the end of one thousand years, it is destined to become a celestial kingdom.

Here is another image:

See the circular symbols above Ursa Major? They are nowhere near the "base of the butresses."

Here are the earth-stones:

Preliminary drawings even had continents on the globes, but the granite stone that Brigham Young decided on wouldn't allow for such detail. I suspect that the same reason is why the early saints decided against the sidways design of the saturn stones drawn by Angell. Again... working with granite would have made the task difficult, if not impossible. The top down view may have been additionally favorable, due to its resemblance of a point within a circle. But thats just speculation.

[BCSpace]

Here is an image:

FWIW... some LDS authors have denied that Saturn symbolism is on the temple. I think they are mistaken, however.

Amateur astronomer that I am, I would never have thought of Saturn looking at those.

[Mike Reed]

The Salt Lake Temple does not have Saturn Stones, at least according to the following 1978 New Era Article:

Right. This is one of the articles that I was referring to when I said, "some LDS authors have denied that Saturn symbolism is on the temple." But again... I think such authors are mistaken.

Amateur astronomer that I am, I would never have thought of Saturn looking at those.

Yeah... if it weren't for the Truman O. Angell drawing, I would have probably felt the same way.

[Mike Reed]

It's large and white, but somewhat thin as I recall. Too thin to be a "coffee table book" (uh oh- do Mormons have coffee tables??) but about the right length and width.

The book that I thought you were talking about was C. Mark Hamilton's "The Salt Lake Temple: A Monument to a People." It is white, thin, but not officially published by the Church. While scanning through it, I see Angell's drawings of the saturn stones... but no explicit comment about the final version (as found on the constructed temple) being "saturn stones."

[Sevenbak]

I don't agree. See below.

Here is another image:

See the circular symbols above Ursa Major? They are nowhere near the "base of the butresses."

Here are the earth-stones:

The Truman O. Angel drawings even had continents on the globes, but the granite stone that Brigham Young decided on wouldn't allow for such detail. I suspect that the same reason is why the early saints decided against the sidways design of the saturn stones drawn by Angell. Again... working with granite would have made the task difficult, if not impossible.

They look the same to me. Do you have a close up pic of the "saturn stones"?

[Mike Reed]

They look the same to me. Do you have a close up pic of the "saturn stones"?

They are indeed very similar... and unfortunately, the poor resolution of the image that I gave makes it hard to see the difference. Try this link, and click on the image again to magnify it:

http://helaman81.net/kylehansen/new/0%20Pi...205,%202005.JPG

[Sevenbak]

They are indeed very similar... and unfortunately, the poor resolution of the image that I gave makes it hard to see the difference. Try this link, and click on the image again to magnify it:

http://helaman81.net/kylehansen/new/0%20Pi...205,%202005.JPG

Well, if it is, that's a whole lot of Saturns.

Worlds without end, I've seen references to... not so much the other.

[Mike Reed]

Well, if it is, that's a whole lot of Saturns.

Worlds without end, I've seen references to... not so much the other.

And there are lots of suns and moons on the SL Temple too.

[Sevenbak]

And there are lots of suns and moons on the SL Temple too.

Yeah, not entire rows of them.

It makes more LDS theological sense that they are what the Church says they are, worlds without end. If our earth is patterned after other worlds created, the rings of Saturn don't fall into that category, IMHO. Especially rows of Saturns.

Edited to add: This is just a guess, but the fact that they are so similar to the base earth stones, yet are up above in the "sky", says they aren't this earth, they are other earths. Again, I'm speculating.

[ebeddoulos]

Right. This is one of the articles that I was referring to when I said, "some LDS authors have denied that Saturn symbolism is on the temple." But again... I think such authors are mistaken.

I on the other hand think they are correct. The difference between your opinion and mine is that I offer evidence in support.

"The original temple plans show a "Saturn stone," with two circles around it, situated above the roofline at the top of each buttress. If the Saturn stones had been used, they would have symbolized a part of God's realm outside of or above the three degrees of glory. ... It is possible they were intended to represent Kolob" (Allen H. Barber, "Celestial Symbols", Bountiful, UT: Horizon Publishers, [1989], pg. 144)

I am afraid that unless you can provide some legitimate, verifiable and credible evidence other than your personal thoughts/opinions on the subject, that it is you who are mistaken. There are no Saturn stones on the Salt Lake City Temple.

[Mike Reed]

Yeah, not entire rows of them.

Moons (at different phases) encircle the entire SL temple.

It makes more LDS theological sense that they are what the Church says they are, worlds without end.

Such a speculation is not supported by early drafts of the temple design.

If our earth is patterned after other worlds created, the rings of Saturn don't fall into that category, IMHO. Especially rows of Saturns.

You seem to be falling into circular reasoning, since this statement presupposes that the stones indeed represent earths.

[Mike Reed]

I on the other hand think they are correct. The difference between your opinion and mine is that I offer evidence in support.

You don't count Truman O. Angell's drawings as evidence. Got it. {chuckle} BTW... quoting one persons opinion to support your own opinion hardly counts as evidence.

I am afraid that unless you can provide some legitimate, verifiable and credible evidence other than your personal thoughts/opinions on the subject, that it is you who are mistaken. There are no Saturn stones on the Salt Lake City Temple.

Read the thread, silly (pay attention to post #9).

[Sevenbak]

Moons (at different phases) encircle the entire SL temple. In complete rows?

Such a speculation is not supported by early drafts of the temple design. We're talking about the temple, not a preliminary drawing.

You seem to be falling into circular reasoning, since this statement presupposes that the stones indeed represent earths. You're suddenly opposing speculation? LOL.

[Sevenbak]

OK, I stand corrected. Just found this in a 1978 Ensign.

'Overwhelmed by the building itself, people may not realize how extensive the ornamentation is, each of which, commented President George A. Smith, â??conveys a moral lesson, and all point to the celestial world.â? There are fifty Earth Stones weighing 3 1/2 tons apiece, fifty moon stones, several Saturns, numerous sunstones, sixty-eight star stones, two stones showing rays of truth and light breaking through clouds of error on the east, stones inscribed â??I Am Alpha and Omegaâ? on the east and west center towers with accompanying stones representing an all-seeing eye and clasped hands."

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hide...0004d82620aRCRD

[Sevenbak]

OK, this is funny. In a completely different, (and longer I might add) article from the New Era 1978 we read just the opposite.

"It is interesting to note that while Truman O. Angellâ??s drawings show the temple in striking clarity and completeness, there are a few places where the actual structure deviated from Angellâ??s original drawings. Angellâ??s 1854 drawing of the temple exterior shows Saturn stones, each complete with rings, directly above the sun stones. They appear nowhere on the temple. Cloud stones appear only twice on the temple as it was completed, but they adorned all six towers in this early drawing."

I'm so confused...

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hide...0004d82620aRCRD

[Mike Reed]

In complete rows?

Not that it really matters... but yes. They are all depicted at the same level, and therefore are in rows.

We're talking about the temple, not a preliminary drawing.

We are talking about evidence... evidence can be found by looking at preliminary drafts. For example... we can confirm that the circular stones at the base of the buttresses are earth stones, by observing the additional details of continents that Angell drew in his preliminary drafts.

You're suddenly opposing speculation? LOL.

No. I oppose circular reasoning.

[ebeddoulos]

You don't count Truman O. Angell's drawings as evidence. Got it. {chuckle}

Read the thread, silly.

I suggest that it is you who should read the thread. I suggest that you pay particular attention to the graphics which you provided:

In answer to your question, yes, I count Truman O. Angell's drawings as evidence. What you are calling a Saturn stone on the Salt Lake City Temple bears no visible similarity to Truman O. Angell's drawings; not even in the abstract. But thank you for putting your folly on display. You have amused me and for that I am most grateful.

[Sevenbak]

Yes, but the sun stones in the drawing actually look like the sun stones on the temple.

The saturn stones in the drawing look nothing like each other, rather resemble the earth stone, in fact.

[Sevenbak]

ebeddoulos, I found a close up.

I agree. The two bear no resemblance.

http://image.wetpaint.com/image/2/Rg5lDnkh...PiRMP4JjOw43616

[Mike Reed]

In answer to your question, yes, I count Truman O. Angell's drawings as evidence. What you are calling a Saturn stone on the Salt Lake City Temple bears no visible similarity to Truman O. Angell's drawings; not even in the abstract.

Not even in abstract? Please. As mfbukowski has already explained, the stones seem to depict saturn as "seen from above- ie- with the planet and the rings as just circles." Compare other details on the temple with Angell's drawings, and you will see other modifications. There is good reason for these modifications. Do you remember what I previously wrote about Brigham's decision to use granite, rather than the freestone initially planned, and how this decision required them to simplify certain details?

But thank you for putting your folly on display. You have amused me and for that I am most grateful.

I try to teach you something, and you laugh it off. Sighâ?¦