Mike Reed Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 ebeddoulos, I found a close up.I agree. The two bear no resemblance. http://image.wetpaint.com/image/2/Rg5lDnkh...PiRMP4JjOw43616Repost: As mfbukowski has already explained, the stones seem to depict saturn as "seen from above- ie- with the planet and the rings as just circles." Compare other details on the temple with Angell's drawings, and you will see other modifications. There is good reason for these modifications. Do you remember what I previously wrote about Brigham's decision to use granite, rather than the freestone initially planned, and how this decision required them to simplify certain details?
Sevenbak Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 There is good reason for these modifications. Do you remember what I previously wrote about Brigham's decision to use granite, rather than the freestone initially planned, and how this decision required them to simplify certain details?Yeah, like the simplistic designs of the all the other stones, sunstones, moonstones, cloudstones, or even the all seeing I? Ummm ok. The designed Saturn would be easy in comparison. Are you really actually making that as a serious argument?
ebeddoulos Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 I try to teach you something, and you laugh it off. Sighâ?¦You ... teaching ... me. What a quaint, amusing notion.
Mike Reed Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Yeah, like the simplistic designs of the all the other stones, sunstones, moonstones, cloudstones, or even the all seeing I? Ummm ok. The designed Saturn would be easy in comparison. ....{chuckle} This last image isn't from the SL Temple; but rather is from a preliminary drawing of how they had hoped it would look like. Compare this to the "earth stone" image I had previously posted:Thanks for illustrating my point, Sevenbak. You could have also posted images from preliminary drawings showing that they had initially planned for the suns to have faces, and trumpets to extend out from the clouds.
Mike Reed Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 You ... teaching ... me. What a quaint, amusing notion.Perhaps the best point you have made in this thread yet. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it think.
Notquitewetyet Posted July 21, 2009 Author Posted July 21, 2009 If I had a little snarky picture I would insert it here.Does anyone know how these 2 contradictory accounts got published? Considering Pres. Smith pointed to "several Saturns" I think that would show that even in the highest levels of the Church there is confusion about what these little guys are.OK, I stand corrected. Just found this in a 1978 Ensign.'Overwhelmed by the building itself, people may not realize how extensive the ornamentation is, each of which, commented President George A. Smith, â??conveys a moral lesson, and all point to the celestial world.â? There are fifty Earth Stones weighing 3 1/2 tons apiece, fifty moon stones, several Saturns, numerous sunstones, sixty-eight star stones, two stones showing rays of truth and light breaking through clouds of error on the east, stones inscribed â??I Am Alpha and Omegaâ? on the east and west center towers with accompanying stones representing an all-seeing eye and clasped hands."http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hide...0004d82620aRCRDOK, this is funny. In a completely different, (and longer I might add) article from the New Era 1978 we read just the opposite."It is interesting to note that while Truman O. Angellâ??s drawings show the temple in striking clarity and completeness, there are a few places where the actual structure deviated from Angellâ??s original drawings. Angellâ??s 1854 drawing of the temple exterior shows Saturn stones, each complete with rings, directly above the sun stones. They appear nowhere on the temple. Cloud stones appear only twice on the temple as it was completed, but they adorned all six towers in this early drawing."http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hide...0004d82620aRCRD
Notquitewetyet Posted July 21, 2009 Author Posted July 21, 2009 GOT IT!NEW ERA 1993:http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hide...0004d82620aRCRDFYI:For Your InfoNext > < Previous Print E-mail â??FYI: For Your Info,â? New Era, Apr 1993, 34â??37(Sources for this article include The Contributor, Apr. 1893, pp. 257â??58; Every Stone a Sermon, Richard N. Holzapfel, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1992; and â??The Temple and Sacred Symbols of the Restored Church,â? unpublished manuscript by Paul T. Smith.)Hosanna: A 100 Year CelebrationIt was 100 years ago this month that the Salt Lake Temple was dedicated. Since then, it has become a symbol of eternal happiness for many people. On this occasion, we thought you might like ot know a few interesting facts.In the Beginning The Salt Lake Temple was completed in 1893. But even before the Saints moved west Brigham Young had seen in a vision where it was to be located. He designated that spot only two days after his arrival in the Salt Lake Valley.It was also revealed what the temple would look like before it was even designed. At the dedication of the cornerstones, Brigham Young said, â??I scarcely ever say much about revelations, or visions, but suffice it to say, five years ago last July I was here, and saw in the spirit the Temple, not ten feet from where we have laid the cornerstone. I have not inquired what kind of a Temple we should build. Why? Because it was represented before me. I have never looked upon that ground, but the vision of it was there. I see it as plainly as if it was in reality before me.â?â??And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lordâ??s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.â??And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalemâ? (Isa. 2:2â??3).Timing Didnâ??t Matter Most people wouldnâ??t have thought 1853 was the best year for the Saints to break ground for an extensive building project. After all, people were still arriving in the Salt Lake Valley, and most of them didnâ??t bring much with them. One anonymous brother described his situation like this: â??I walked the morning the ground was broken for the foundation of the Temple. â?¦ I went through frozen mud and slush with my feet tied up in rags. I had on a pair of pants made out of my wifeâ??s skirtâ??a thin Scotch plaid; also a thin calico shirt and a straw hat. These were all the clothes I had. It was go that way or stay at home. â?¦ I was not alone in poverty. â?¦ There were many who were fixed as badly as I was.â?But the Lordâ??s house needed to be built. Later that day, John D. McAllister described the following event:â??The ground being frozen, President Heber C. Kimball commenced breaking the ground with a pick. â?¦ President Young took out the first turf. â?¦ While taking it out [a] silver dollar was flung from someone in the congregation which struck in the hole. Brother Kimball said that was an omen that we should have plenty of money to build the Temple.â?At Long Last Joseph Fielding Smith, who would later become the prophet, was 16 on April 6, 1893, when the temple was finally dedicated. It had been under construction all his life and took 40 years and countless hours of work and sacrifice to complete. â??In my boyhood anxiety,â? he later wrote, â??I wondered if I would live to see the temple completed.â?But he was among those who waved white handkerchiefs in unison and called out â??Hosannaâ? three times when the dedicatory service had concluded. That â??awe-inspiring, sacred Hosanna Shoutâ? still occurs today, at the dedicatory ceremony of every temple.Special Meaning â??Every window, every steeple, everything about the Temple speaks of the things of God, and gives evidence of the faith of the people who built it,â? said Elder J. Golden Kimball, a former General Authority of the Church. But just how do some of those symbols on the outside of the temple speak of God? Here are some examples:The Angel Moroni, on top, is there to announce that the fulness of the everlasting gospel has been restored to earth.Six Spires, three on each end of the temple, represent the restoration of the priesthood. The three east spires, representing the Melchizedek Priesthood, are six feet higher than the three west spires, representing the Aaronic Priesthood. Also the three east spires represent the First Presidency, and the three west spires the Presiding Bishopric.Star Stones are found all over the temple, like on keystones above corner tower windows and above the lower set of windows on the walls. They are reminders of the pillars of heaven and the glory of God, and of the telestial kingdom. The stars pointing downward represent the reception of truth from the heavens, and also the priesthood, that the â??lost may find themselves,â? according to Truman O. Angell, temple architect.Moon Stones, all 50 of them, are on the buttresses in line with the top of the first row of oval windows. They illustrate the computation of the earthâ??s time, and also the terrestrial kingdom.Sun Stones, which also number 50, are in line with the top of the upper row of oval windows. They also represent the computation of the earthâ??s time, and in addition, stand for the celestial kingdom.Saturn Stones are located directly below the parapet on each side of the six towers. They represent Kolob, the dwelling place of God.Corner Tower Windows, five on the east end of the building, commemorate the five offices of the Melchizedek priesthood: elder, seventy, high priest, patriarch, and apostle. The four on the west end of the building stand for the four offices of the Aaronic priesthood: deacon, teacher, priest, and bishop.All-Seeing Eye, a symbol of omniscience, omnipresence, and the omnipotent nature of God, is found on the east facade of the central tower, just below the dedicatory inscription.[photo] You might have used this kind of transportation to arrive at the temple dedication in 1893, as did this family from Wallsburg, Utah.[photo] President Woodruff said that â??the Heavenly Host were in attendance at the dedication â?¦ and if the eyes of the congregation could be opened they would have seen Joseph and Hyrum, Brigham Young, John Taylor and all the good men who had lived in this dispensation assembled with us, as also Esaias, Jeremiah, and all the Holy Prophets and Apostles who had prophesied of the latter day work. â?¦ They were rejoicing with us in this building.â?
ebeddoulos Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Perhaps the best point you have made in this thread yet. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it think.Pretty pathetic, Mr. Pundit. Is the ad homonym yet another of your teaching methods? If you must resort to ad homonym, may I suggest that you at least try to be somewhat original? Your pettiness is so last decade that you can google it. Did you really think that you would hurt my itty-bitty fweewings?Now address the arguments, if you can. If the builders can make an oval with rays around the deeply indented All Seeing Eye, explain why they cannot make an simple oval ring around a disk. Tell me about the properties of granite that would allow the rays around the Sun Stone yet deny the carvers the capability of a simple oval ring around a disk. Enlighten us all as to why a stone cutter can carve in great detail a Hand Clasp and yet be unable to carve a simple oval ring.
kamenraider Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Note the arrangement of the planets above; Earth, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Sun, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn at the top.It fits the order on the temple.Matthew Brown's Symbols In Stone (pg. 154) says that "A design known as the 'squared-circle' is found on each of the towers above the level of the sunstones. For some unknown reason this design has been mistaken by some commentators for the Saturnstones. This is a separate symbol, however. If we consult the original 1854 plans for the temple, we see that the squared-circle emblem was depicted alongside the planet Saturn; both were separate and distinct."
kamenraider Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 This pic shows how stones on the SL Temple match the sefirot of the middle pillar of the kabbalistic tree of life diagram.
hagoth7 Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 This pic shows how stones on the SL Temple match the sefirot of the middle pillar of the kabbalistic tree of life diagram.? Are there any readings on this topic that people would suggest?
volgadon Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Malchuth (reign) is also termed the Shechina (the holy spirit), not earth. Yesod (foundation) is not the moon. What is shown here as Mercury is hod (glory); Venus should be netzach (eternity); Mars is bravery; tipheret is splendour, not the Sun; Jupiter is gedula (greatness); binah (understanding) is not Saturn, chochma (wisdom) is not the zodiac and keter (crown) is most certainly not primal swirlings.Any parallels to the temple fall flat.
hagoth7 Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Malchuth (reign) is also termed the Shechina (the holy spirit), not earth. Yesod (foundation) is not the moon. What is shown here as Mercury is hod (glory); Venus should be netzach (eternity); Mars is bravery; tipheret is splendour, not the Sun; Jupiter is gedula (greatness); binah (understanding) is not Saturn, chochma (wisdom) is not the zodiac and keter (crown) is most certainly not primal swirlings.Any parallels to the temple fall flat.I have zero idea where you guys are coming from here.Suggested readings?
volgadon Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Kamenraider posted a preposterous chart showing supposed correlations between the SLC temple and the Kabbalistic tree of life (or sefirot), which is supposed to be a chart of the ten virtues of God. As he had to make up things in order to get it to fit, I think we can dismiss it out of hand.
kamenraider Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Kamenraider posted a preposterous chart showing supposed correlations between the SLC temple and the Kabbalistic tree of life (or sefirot), which is supposed to be a chart of the ten virtues of God. As he had to make up things in order to get it to fit, I think we can dismiss it out of hand.I didn't make that chart. It gets the idea across even though it could've been done better. Volgadon, aren't you aware of the concept of recognizing correspondences between the sefirot and planets? The Zohar, Sefer Yetzirah, Sefer Raziel, etc., mention this.
volgadon Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 I'm aware of the concept of parallels between the sefirot and Biblical figures.Sefer haYetzirah mentions seven planets, which are not corelated with the sefirot.Kabbalistic astrology is a modern construct.
hagoth7 Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 ...The Zohar, Sefer Yetzirah, Sefer Raziel, etc., mention this.Perfect, thx for the boost.
hagoth7 Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 The saturn stones in the drawing...Still not sure what you're all getting at, but Jupiter made big news this week.
Mike Reed Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Matthew Brown's Symbols In Stone (pg. 154) says that "A design known as the 'squared-circle' is found on each of the towers above the level of the sunstones. For some unknown reason this design has been mistaken by some commentators for the Saturnstones. This is a separate symbol, however. If we consult the original 1854 plans for the temple, we see that the squared-circle emblem was depicted alongside the planet Saturn; both were separate and distinct."I am looking at Angell's 1854 drawing right now, and Brown is correct that the Saturns and the squared-circles are depicted separately. I don't know that this automatically means that the images on the constructed temple were "mistakenly" identified with Saturn, since the symbolism could have been conflated--perhaps out of convenience, since (as previously explained**) the granite was so hard to work with--but Brown's position nevertheless seems well founded, and his point is a strong one. Thanks for providing the quote, Karmenraider.**"{B}y order of President Young, the original plan contemplated adobe walls trimmed with freestone, accordingly the plan shows more enrichment in the trimmings than practicable with granite to which walls and trimmings were subsequently changed." Truman O. Angell to President John Taylor, 29 April 1886.
mfbukowski Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Those aren't saturn stones, they are earth stones.http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/saltlake/Earthstones. The earthstones, located at the base of each buttress, represent the earth—the "footstool of God." Although the earth is currently a telestial kingdom, it will transition to a terrestrial kingdom at the coming of the Millennium; and at the end of one thousand years, it is destined to become a celestial kingdom.I got behind on this thread, so if this has already been pointed out, ignore this poste, but what we are talking about may or may not be saturn stones, but they are not the earthstones. As your quote shows the earthstones are larger and appear at the BOTTOM of each buttress just above ground level, at the base. The stones we are talking about appear at the bottom of the pinacles, above the arched central windows and are quite high up-- not at ground level.Sorry, bud. My comment was not directed at you in particular; just at the whole concept behind the thread. I just find it amusing that anti-Mormons make such a fuss over architectural features that are not even in existence. Shucks, I'm probably the only one who sees the humor which speaks volumes about the innner workings of what little is left of my mind.No problem! You raised a good question!
mfbukowski Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Moons (at different phases) encircle the entire SL temple.The missing book recorded that Parley P Pratt sketched all the phases of the moon for a particular year, I believe the year the temple was dedicated, and those are the phases reproduced in stone. He had a small shack of an observatory on the temple building site and made his observations and sketches from those.Dang. I wish I had that book!
mfbukowski Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Repost: As mfbukowski has already explained, the stones seem to depict saturn as "seen from above- ie- with the planet and the rings as just circles." Compare other details on the temple with Angell's drawings, and you will see other modifications. There is good reason for these modifications. Do you remember what I previously wrote about Brigham's decision to use granite, rather than the freestone initially planned, and how this decision required them to simplify certain details?As I recall, the stone texture was in fact the issue. I am very confident that this is correct, but as I said, I still have no evidence, but I am trying!
Mike Reed Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 The missing book recorded that Parley P Pratt sketched all the phases of the moon for a particular year, I believe the year the temple was dedicated, and those are the phases reproduced in stone. He had a small shack of an observatory on the temple building site and made his observations and sketches from those.Dang. I wish I had that book!The book I have by C. Mark Hamilton ("The Salt Lake Temple: A Monument to a People") gives the same information. I wonder if it is the same book you are thinking of. One correction, though: I think you meant to say Orson Pratt. Very interesting stuff.As I recall, the stone texture was in fact the issue. I am very confident that this is correct, but as I said, I still have no evidence, but I am trying!Here is a quote from Truman Angell: "{B}y order of President Young, the original plan contemplated adobe walls trimmed with freestone, accordingly the plan shows more enrichment in the trimmings than practicable with granite to which walls and trimmings were subsequently changed." Truman O. Angell to President John Taylor, 29 April 1886.
mfbukowski Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 The book I have by C. Mark Hamilton ("The Salt Lake Temple: A Monument to a People") gives the same information. I wonder if it is the same book you are thinking of. One correction, though: I think you meant to say Orson Pratt. Very interesting stuff.Here is a quote from Truman Angell: "{B}y order of President Young, the original plan contemplated adobe walls trimmed with freestone, accordingly the plan shows more enrichment in the trimmings than practicable with granite to which walls and trimmings were subsequently changed." Truman O. Angell to President John Taylor, 29 April 1886.You are right, it was Orson. I'm glad for the evidence that I still have a few marbles left after all! Regardless of whether or not they represent Saturn (I am convinced they do) at least I remembered the reference correctly. At my age, that is a reward in itself!
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