Sargon Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 I've been toying with the idea of buying this book, but I'd like to know if anyone here has read it or knows of any online reviews of it. I found what appears to be some Sunstone chatter about it, but that is about it.Thanks!
sethpayne Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 I've been toying with the idea of buying this book, but I'd like to know if anyone here has read it or knows of any online reviews of it. I found what appears to be some Sunstone chatter about it, but that is about it.Thanks!I thought it was a great read.It had some information about the Adam-god Doctrine that very interesting. Apparently this was one of the many things Pratt and Young feuded over.
Calm Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 There is some discussion here: http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2004/...al-texts-again/I think there has been some discussion on the board as well, so you could do a search.
LifeOnaPlate Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 It is on my list, but I am waiting for Signature to add it to their free online books. No money.
Nevo Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 I think it's a wonderful book. Bergera assembles an impressive array of primary sources and quotes them at length. Nothing is taken out of context and you quickly get a feeling for the personalities involved. Here's one of my favorite quotes from BY:But this is a great principle & I do not wish to say [to Elder Pratt,] you shall do so and so. I do not know of a man who has a mathematical turn of mind but what [he] goes to[o] Far. The trouble between Orson Pratt & me is I do not know Enough & he knows to[o] much. I do not know evry thing. Their is a mystery Concerning the God I worship[,] which mystery will be removed when I Come to a full knowledge of God.One of the greatest things Joseph Smith ever did was to Familiarize Heaven & Earth and Cause them to shake hand together and become Familiar Together. This was a great principle. It is simpl[e] yet true. When I me[e]t the God I worship I expect to [meet a] personage with whom I have been acquainted upon the same principle that I would [if I were] to meet my Earthly Father after going upon a Journey & returning home. (p. 140)As the book's title indicates, it details disagreements among the Brethren. But it is respectful and sympathetic and it leaves no doubt of their deep commitment to the Gospel and of their care and concern for each other. I found especially moving a prayer offered by Elder Ezra T. Benson after one particularly difficult meeting of the Twelve (where Orson Pratt was being censured for some of his teachings):Our Father and our God, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and by the authority of the Holy Priesthood[,] we come before thee, having offered up the holy and sacred signs of the Holy Priesthood, to ask thee for such things as we need, and to pardon and forgive all of our sins, and to send thy Holy Spirit to come and enlighten our minds that they may be clear on the subjects to come before us.We now feel our weakness and pray thee to remove the cloud of darkness, let the destroyer have no power over us[. M]ay the council of thy servants be clear and comprehensive, and we pray thee to pour out thy spirit upon us as a Quorum to discharge our duties.Help us by the light of thy glorious countenance, to rest upon thy servant Orson Pratt, and we pray thee that double of thy spirit may rest upon him. [L]et his mind be clear, and divest him of selfishness and hardness of heart, and may he be filled with the Holy Ghost that he may subject himself to his brethren[. C]omfort his heart, & rend the vail of unbelief, cause the scales of blindness to fall from his eyes, that he may see, and his ears to hear the whisperings of the Holy Spirit, soften his heart as a little child to the will of his brethren, and [may he] reconcile himself to the will of our God[. H]elp him, raise him up, to magnify his apostleship, that he may do good among his brethren[. W]e dedicate him unto thee, and we pray thee that his way may be opened up, and may he be blessed with great faith and power of God, and be a blessing to his family, that he may be relieved in temporal things necessary to make him comfortable, and [that he may] acknowledge the hand of God in all things. . . .We ask the Father in the name of Jesus Christ to remove the darkness in our midst, that the spirit of revelation may be open to us. [A]ccept of us, our prayers, our dedication, as thy children, servants and Apostles. We ask thee to bless bro. Hyde as President of this quorum, may he have wisdom to preside as a man of God, filled with the Holy Ghost, that he may have eyes to see and understand thy spirit and be guided aright in all things. . . .We pray thee to bless bro. George A., who has been a long time afflicted[. D]o thou strengthen him up and [that] his ancle [may be] healed. . . . We pray thee in behalf of brother Brigham Young, who we acknowledge as our leader: Prophet, Seer, and Revelator. [D]o thou speak unto him by visions and dreams, and let him be clothed in revelations continually, and stand as a Prophet over thy people, and do thou keep and preserve him for ever.And do thou also bless thy servants Heber and Daniel, may they stand by him in prosperity and adversity; bless them with health, heal them of their infirmities, [and] may they live long even as long as life is sweet[. C]omfort and bless them, and may they be a blessing to thy Saints scattered abroad in these vallies.Bless the officers in thy Church and Kingdom, who are placed to preside over and to counsel thy people[. B]less their fields, flocks, herd, cattle and soil[;] bless them in sowing seed in the Earth, that it may bring forth to sustain man and beast, that they may be made glad. less thy Saints scattered abroad, [and] gather Israel; even thy scattered people who are crying for deliverance[;] bless thy Saints who are preaching the gospel, enable them to do good, magnify their calling, do a good work and return in peace and safety. . . .We dedicate ourselves unto thee, with our Wives and Children, flocks and herds, fields and grain[. D]o thou temper the elements for our good that we may be prospered in all things and do good to thy people[. M]ake thy people happy and glorious and cause thy holy spirit to shine forth in our hearts continually. even so. Amen.(pp. 200-201)Disagreements aside, these men lived their religion.
cinepro Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 Bergera's book expanded on an article he had published in Dialogue:The Orson Pratt - Brigham Young Controversies: Conflict Within the Quorums, 1953-1868It starts on page 7.This blog describes some possible issues with Bergera's use of Young's diaries:http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/bergera-vs-c...lict-smackdown/
Duncan Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 I read it awhile back and it was a great read and interesting but at the end of the day I was like who cares? I never met these people and it not unheard of that people don't always get along!
John Larsen Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 I enjoyed it. It also gives you a good sense of the belief practice and attitudes during the 50s and 60s. In that sense, it goes byond the dynamic between Brigham and Pratt, but explores the patterns of belief and apostleship.
dblagent007 Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 Bergera's book expanded on an article he had published in Dialogue:The Orson Pratt - Brigham Young Controversies: Conflict Within the Quorums, 1953-1868Wow. Brigham Young speaking to a gathering of church leadership stated that "Joseph Smith said to us I am a God to this people & so is any man who is appointed to lead Israel or the Kingdom of God if the people reject him they reject the one who sent him . . ." pgs. 17-18.
Joseph Antley Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 Wow. Brigham Young speaking to a gathering of church leadership stated that "Joseph Smith said to us I am a God to this people & so is any man who is appointed to lead Israel or the Kingdom of God if the people reject him they reject the one who sent him . . ." pgs. 17-18.Sounds like another prophet I heard of once (Exodus 4:16; 7:1-2).
LifeOnaPlate Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 Wow. Brigham Young speaking to a gathering of church leadership stated that "Joseph Smith said to us I am a God to this people & so is any man who is appointed to lead Israel or the Kingdom of God if the people reject him they reject the one who sent him . . ." pgs. 17-18.Had you really never heard this one?
dblagent007 Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 Had you really never heard this one?Nope. Should I have?
tragula Posted July 6, 2009 Posted July 6, 2009 I read it years ago and quite enjoyed it. I highly recommend it. I liked the fact that it portrayed the Brethren as fallible, mortal, human beings, who do not always agree or receive the same inspiration, contrary to the public posture that the Brethren seem to attempt to maintain today and what many members of the Church seem to believe. Orson seemed to have problems with whoever happened to be the President of the Church, whether Joseph or Brigham, and it wasn't just about the Adam-God doctrine, either. That was just one of the problems between them. It was interesting to read about the various doctrinal issues that divided these two wonderful brethren, so many years ago, and compare their beliefs to those that are current today.
Lachoneus Posted July 6, 2009 Posted July 6, 2009 This blog describes some possible issues with Bergera's use of Young's diaries:http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/bergera-vs-c...lict-smackdown/This confirms some of my thoughts when I read it last year. Bergera likes to embellish the facts Therefore, it is important in reading his book to separate facts from his embellishments.
toon Posted July 6, 2009 Posted July 6, 2009 This confirms some of my thoughts when I read it last year. Bergera likes to embellish the facts Therefore, it is important in reading his book to separate facts from his embellishments.I don't think there's compelling evidence that Bergera embellishes significantly more than others.Here's Bergera's comment to the blog posting:I first stumbled onto the original minutes of the April 1860 Pratt-Young meetings in LDS Archives back in the late 1970s, and tried my best to decipher Robert Campbellâ??s abbreviated notes. When I periodically revisit those early transcripts, I find mistakes Iâ??ve made. I tried to correct these in â??Conflict in the Quorumâ? (Iâ??m sure some misreadings remain). Fred Collierâ??s transcription may be the most correct version of these minutes presently available (though I havenâ??t yet compared his to mine). I certainly donâ??t consider myself to duking it out with Collier, and frankly am grateful that his transcription is now available.
alter idem Posted July 6, 2009 Posted July 6, 2009 I can recommend it. As a book to read as well as one to own.
Joseph Antley Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 I had planned on getting this book to read this week. It was on the HBLL's website a few days ago, but I looked today and I couldn't find it. Not sure what's up.
Calm Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 You can find it under the author's name using the library catalog. There seems to be glitch with the 'scholarsearch' function:Conflict in the Quorum : Orson Pratt, Brigham Young, Joseph Smith Bergera, Gary James.Personal Author: Bergera, Gary James.Title: Conflict in the Quorum : Orson Pratt, Brigham Young, Joseph Smith / Gary James Bergera.Publication info: Salt Lake City : Signature Books, c2002.Physical description: xi, 312 p. ; 24 cm.General Note: "A Smith-Pettit Foundation book".Bibliography note: Includes bibliographical references (p. 287-300) and index.Personal subject: Pratt, Orson, 1811-1881.Personal subject: Smith, Joseph, 1805-1844.Personal subject: Young, Brigham, 1801-1877.Corporate subject: Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--History--19th century.Subject term: Church controversies--Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--History--19th century.LCCN: 2002036664ISBN: 1560851643 (hardback)HoldingsHBLL Copy Material LocationBX 8670.1 .P885b 2002 1 Book Harold B. Lee Library Bookshelves 2 Book Harold B. Lee Library BookshelvesHBLL Special Collections Copy Material LocationBX 8670.1 .P885b 2002 1 Americana Americana Collection - 1130 HBLL
Joseph Antley Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 You can find it under the author's name using the library catalog. There seems to be glitch with the 'scholarsearch' function:Thanks Calmoriah!!
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Nope. Should I have?Did I miss something here?What is the point of bringing this up?"Wow. Brigham Young speaking to a gathering of church leadership stated that "Joseph Smith said to us I am a God to this people & so is any man who is appointed to lead Israel or the Kingdom of God if the people reject him they reject the one who sent him . . ." pgs. 17-18."
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