Trees

[poulsenll]

The Book of Mormon mentions that the land north was uninhabited because

someone cut down all the trees. The latest theiry for the collapse of the

Maya culture proposes that the cause was cutting down all too many trees.

http://www.al.com/news/huntsvilletimes/loc....xml&coll=1

"Satellite imagery hints tree loss led to empire's fall

What destroyed the ancient Mayan civilization that built sophisticated

calendars and ruled the Yucatan peninsula for millennia?

The answer may be as simple as they cut down the trees. "

Shades of history repeating itself.

Larry P

[Marmonboy]

So environmental pressure due to tree loss contributed to the collapse of the Jaredites (who lived in the "land northward", and later the same thing happened to the Nephites.

Makes sense to me.

(Notice I didn't say "caused" --it was one of many contributing factors in both cases, certainly.)

[JangoStango]

Shades of history repeating itself.

Larry P

A character like Droopy must have gone among the Maya telling them it was impossible to cut down all the trees. "Cast out the wise men who fill the peoples' heads with fantasies of impending desolation!"

[thesometimesaint]

It was the first or the last time that happened. A history of the people of the Easter Islands is instructive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Island

[beastie]

This is not a new theory. Jared Diamond offered it in his book Collapse years ago. I also saw a documentary about it at least a year ago.

I wrote this on my blog (which I admit to being lazy about keeping up with) to address the recurring claim of a "hit" in this regard:

http://mormonmesoamerica.blogspot.com/

Ancient Mesoamericans made a type of “cement” out of limestone. It was then used as a plaster overcoat on top of rubble and stonework. Here are a couple of paragraphs from the book Life in the Ancient Maya World, by Lynn V. Foster, that explains:

“The Maya constructed cities with complexes that could cover many football fields and pyramidal ones that rose to heights of 70 meters (231 feet), yet they built their cities with Stone Age technology. No steel beams supported pyramids or vaults, no metal tools were available to quarry stone or to carve it. Instead, wooden beams, stone, and lime cement were the structural building blocks; rope-and-water abrasion and stone and obsidian tools provided the basic technology of Maya cities. (238)

Lime Plaster and Cement

Limestone was burned under intense heat to make plaster, or stucco, and cement. To make a small pile of plaster (0.9 meters, or 3 feet high), 20 trees had to be felled and burned. Plaster on exterior walls weather poorly, so little is recovered during excavation. There is enough evidence, however, to indicate that some buildings were colored red or cream by the addition of either iron oxide or organic materials to the plaster. Lime cement was used as mortar or fill at many sites, including Palenque and Uxmal. (239)

The following verses in the Book of Mormon refer to cement, and, according to apologists, caused criticism in the past:

THE BOOK OF HELAMAN

CHAPTER 3

Many Nephites migrate to the land northward—They build houses of cement and keep many records—Tens of thousands are converted and baptized—The word of God leads men to salvation—Nephi the son of Helaman fills the judgment seat. Between 49 and 39 B.C.

4 And they did travel to an exceedingly great distance, insomuch that they came to large bodies of water and many rivers.

5 Yea, and even they did spread forth into all parts of the land, into whatever parts it had not been rendered desolate and without timber, because of the many inhabitants who had before inherited the land.

6 And now no part of the land was desolate, save it were for timber; but because of the greatness of the destruction of the people who had before inhabited the land it was called desolate.

7 And there being but little timber upon the face of the land, nevertheless the people who went forth became exceedingly expert in the working of cement; therefore they did build houses of cement, in the which they did dwell.

Apologists believe that this is a significant “hit” for the Book of Mormon. They claim that cement appeared ‘suddenly’ in ancient Mesoamerica around 100 AD.

“The use of cement appears abruptly in Mesoamerican archaeology around the first century A.D., as, for example, in these cement buildings at Teotihuacan in the Valley of Mexico. The Book of Mormon states that some Nephite dissenters who moved in a land northward “became exceeding expert in the working of cement” and “built cities of both wood and of cement” beginning in 46 B.C. (Hel. 3:7, 11). Courtesy John W. Welch.”

LightPlanet

In reality, the use of limestone cement as a plaster overlay was used long prior to that period, and prior to Teotihuacan’s famous use of it. The only reason the BoM apologists want to connect Teotihuacan to the cited scriptures is due to the noted “lack of trees”. Teotihuacan did, indeed, experience an ecological catastrophe that probably contributed to its demise around 500 AD. However, there are problems with trying to connect this to Helaman.

One – Helaman notes the construction of cement cities as an unusual phenomenon. Yet the use of limestone plaster was in use long before this date. In one of the earliest Mesoameican cities, Nakbe, demonstrated the architectural style:

Complex societies flourished in the Petan region during the Middle to late Formative Period (600/500-300 BC). Monumental architecture was established in Nakbe as early as the 8th century BC. By 750 BC Nakbe had some structures that reached the height of 20 meters (66 feet) high. By 800 BC, Nakbe had grown to extend to over 50 hectars (124 acres). During this time the city replaced its collection of low platforms of rough stones surmounted by wattle-and-daub structures with a number of high platforms and temples covered in plaster.

Wiki

As can be seen in the verses I shared in this entry, the BoM has the situation entirely reversed. The trees were decimated due to their fondness of plaster - it takes a tremendous fire to make plaster. Yet the BoM claims they made cities out of cement due to the fact that there were no trees to begin with. So if there wre no timber, how did these people make cement to begin with?

(ps, Larry, I was hoping for a response for you regarding why the Genesee River or the Buffalo Creek River have to be disqualified as the River Sidon)

[thesometimesaint]

beastie:

I think it is a misreading of the BoM to suggest that the Nephites used ONLY cement in the construction of their buildings. A more fair reading would show that they USED cement as a type of mortar to hold the rocks they used.

See seventh picture down.

http://www.the-book-of-mormon.com/photos-page2.html

[Doctor Steuss]

beastie:

I think it is a misreading of the BoM to suggest that the Nephites used ONLY cement in the construction of their buildings. A more fair reading would show that they USED cement as a type of mortar to hold the rocks they used.

See seventh picture down.

http://www.the-book-of-mormon.com/photos-page2.html

The problem (which Beastie illustrates) is that the manufacturing of cement requires trees (i.e. a heat source... even the modern manufacturing of cement requires heating the materials to well over 2000

[beastie]

I think it is a misreading of the BoM to suggest that the Nephites used ONLY cement in the construction of their buildings. A more fair reading would show that they USED cement as a type of mortar to hold the rocks they used.

How does this address the point I was making?

The BoM claims they had to use cement due to the lack of trees, which is a total reversal of the actual situation in Mesoamerica. And how did they make the cement without trees to create the intense heat needed?

whoops, Steuss already beat me to it.

[Brant Gardner]

The BoM claims they had to use cement due to the lack of trees, which is a total reversal of the actual situation in Mesoamerica. And how did they make the cement without trees to create the intense heat needed?

Are you suggesting that historical documents have cause and effect correct all of the time? That would be an interesting find. Form the point of dealing with historical material, finding the two events at the same time allows our modern sensibilities to sort out cause and effect. To assume that an ancient writer would have the information to do the same (particularly if they were not writing about their own location--the situation in Helaman) would be remarkable.

[BCSpace]

The answer may be as simple as they cut down the trees. "

I didn't think this was new as I seem to recall hearing for the last couple of decades that they cut down too many trees for fires to prepare their cement or the limestone coverings for their buildings.

[John Larsen]

I seem to recall that Joseph referred to the American Southwest as the land of desolation that was devoid of trees. I will have to look and see if I can find that quote.

[beastie]

Are you suggesting that historical documents have cause and effect correct all of the time? That would be an interesting find. Form the point of dealing with historical material, finding the two events at the same time allows our modern sensibilities to sort out cause and effect. To assume that an ancient writer would have the information to do the same (particularly if they were not writing about their own location--the situation in Helaman) would be remarkable.

Brant, the text clearly states that they were making houses out of cement when there were no trees. How did they make the cement?

[volgadon]

Cement could mean any sort of mortar. The Egyptians, IIRC, used gypsum as well as mud and clay.

[thesometimesaint]

Beastie:

Quantities involved. Less mortar, less trees needed to cut down.

[beastie]

We're talking about a possible match to Mesoamerica, hence, the manner in which they made the plaster in Mesoamerica is the point. They used a tremendous amount of timber to make the plaster, hence, creating the tree shortage.

[volgadon]

But if they went northwards to an area scarce in trees, then they would have used a different method out of necessity, which is what I'm sure the BoM account refers to.

[beastie]

But if they went northwards to an area scarce in trees, then they would have used a different method out of necessity, which is what I'm sure the BoM account refers to.

Are you talking about going to an area completely outside Mesoamerica?

[beastie]

Quantities involved. Less mortar, less trees needed to cut down.

Well, then apologists lose their supposed "hit" with Teotihuacan.

Aside from that, it really doesn't make much sense to propose that they would deliberately use a method that required any use of trees for fire at all, given there was so little timber.

[JangoStango]

Well, then apologists lose their supposed "hit" with Teotihuacan.

Aside from that, it really doesn't make much sense to propose that they would deliberately use a method that required any use of trees for fire at all, given there was so little timber.

If I read him correctly, Brant is saying you are right that it doesn't make much sense, but it would be appropriate to blame the ancient author for getting their history wrong (misunderstanding "cause and effect").

Hey! Let's make some lemonade!

The mere fact that the ancients made the logical correlation [loss of wood / use of cement] implies ancient authorship even if they goofed on the true cause and effect. How would Joseph know about the correlation, anyways? Joseph wasn't a Mason until many years later.

[beastie]

If I read him correctly, Brant is saying you are right that it doesn't make much sense, but it would be appropriate to blame the ancient author for getting their history wrong (misunderstanding "cause and effect").

Yes, I understood that was his point. However, even if they misunderstood the causal relationship, the fact is that the text still claims they were making cities of cement...when there were hardly any trees. Now, I don't know much about the general manufacture of cement/plaster in general, but I do know how they manufactured it in Mesoamerica - the needed a heck of a lot of trees to feed their plaster habit. I just don't see how these supposed Mesoamericans were making their cities of cement without trees.

[JangoStango]

Yes, I understood that was his point. However, even if they misunderstood the causal relationship, the fact is that the text still claims they were making cities of cement...when there were hardly any trees.

Yeah, and the text is wrong either because the ancients were fools or because Joseph Smith wrote it before he learned how to make cement (something he would have learned as a Freemason). Brant thinks it is the former, you and I think it was the latter.

[Anijen]

Brant, the text clearly states that they were making houses out of cement when there were no trees. How did they make the cement?

Most Mayan house were made out of wood with a thatched roof not cement. Even the temples were stone and then a cement type plaster rubbed over the stone. It was not all exclusively cement, if so then you would be correct it would take too much wood.

TheSometimesSaint

See seventh picture down.

http://www.the-book-of-mormon.com/photos-page2.html

You do realize that picture you are referring to is not in the time period of the Mayan? In fact it is a 20th century production done by the Govt of Mexico to enhance tourism and the cement is nowhere near Mayan. Most cement that dates back to that time is on the floors of the temples its not those walls with stone in it aesthetically decorated with brown spots.

Here is a image of Teotihuacan a century ago;

as compared to modern times;

[Tarski]

A character like Droopy must have gone among the Maya telling them it was impossible to cut down all the trees. "Cast out the wise men who fill the peoples' heads with fantasies of impending desolation!"

LOL

This post made my day. Thanks.

[rodheadlee]

"I just don't see how these supposed Mesoamericans were making their cities of cement without trees."

I'm no authority on cement but you can build a nice hot fire with scrub brush. Timber needed for wood construction would of course be from large trees. Any wood will do for a fire. Also, whether significant or not they have a major termite problem down there, that's why hardly anybody builds with wood in Mexico today.

[USU78]

As can be seen in the verses I shared in this entry, the BoM has the situation entirely reversed. The trees were decimated due to their fondness of plaster - it takes a tremendous fire to make plaster. Yet the BoM claims they made cities out of cement due to the fact that there were no trees to begin with. So if there wre no timber, how did these people make cement to begin with?

Maybe the author of Helaman simply assumed that they built with cement because the trees were gone by the time the Nephite peripatetics got to Teotihuacan or wherever the hell the place was Helaman refers to.

USU "Who doesn't assume Mormon is omniscient" 78