Joseph's Seer Stone and Adam's Sapphire

[consiglieri]

Joseph claimed to use a seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon, which he did by placing it in a hat to exclude the light, and apparently reading off words that appeared in the darkness.

Jewish legend speaks of the angel Raziel who appeared to Adam and gave him a book containing great knowledge; hence it is named "The Book of Raziel."

The Book of Raziel starts out with a reference to the premortal existence of mankind:

The Book was revealed to Adam while he was still in the Garden of Eden, to show him each generation and its sages, each generation and its leaders. How did God show him generations that did not yet exist? Some say that God cast sleep upon him and showed him, while others say that Adam saw them all with his eyes, for whatever he read in that book he saw with his own vision. For since the time the world was created, all of the souls of those yet to be born stand before God in the very same form in which they will live in this world.

As interesting as the first paragraph may be in this regard, I wanted to focus on the third paragraph, which discusses how it was that Adam read the book:

Some say that book was written on parchment, while others say it was engraved on a sapphire. How was that sapphire read? Adam held it up to his eyes, and the flames burning inside that sapphire took the form of the letters, so Adam could read them there. So too there are those who say that the true text of the Book of Raziel was the Torah, for the Torah was one of the seven things created before the rest of Creation, and this way its wisdom was transmitted even to the first man.

Adam being enabled to read an entire book from a shining stone he held up to his eyes sounds kind of familiar.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Anijen]

wow great catch. Ill be watching this thread

[Mudcat]

I found this

Galizur (Hebrew, "revealer of the rock") one of the great angels in Talmudic lore whom Moses encountered in heaven, as related by Simon ben Lakish. It was Galizur, "surnamed Raziel", who is reputed to have given Adam The Book of the Angel Raziel. He is a ruling prince of the 2nd Heaven and an expounder of the Torah's divine wisdom.

........

Raziel (Galizur) Raziel ("Secret of God","angel of mysteries") Author of The Book of the Angel Raziel, "wherein all celestial and earthly knowledge is set down." The Book of the Angel Raziel is reputed to contain the 1,500 keys to the mysteries of the universe. His knowledge stems from the fact that he traditionally stands at the very curtains separating God from the rest of Creation and hears and notes everything that is said or done around the throne of the Lord. Unfortunately, they are written in a language so arcane and impossible to decipher (without presumably the aid of Raziel himself) that not even the greatest angels of heaven are able to figure it out.

source:http://www.rjatropical.com/WEB2003/ang1.html

I thought it interesting to note that Raziel was called Galizur "revealer of the rock"

Since we are on a topic involving Adam, I am curious if LDS believe Adam was created with full speech capabilities or was taught to speak in much the same way children are?

[katherine the great]

I have a hard time accepting Jewish mysticism.

[consiglieri]

I thought it interesting to note that Raziel was called Galizur "revealer of the rock"

Then you may find the following of some interest, as well, good my brother.

Alma 37:23 And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Anijen]

I have a hard time accepting Jewish mysticism.

Me too (any mysticism) I thought it was interesting that there is a precedent for getting a translation from looking into a stone though.

[katherine the great]

Me too (any mysticism) I thought it was interesting that there is a precedent for getting a translation from looking into a stone though.

I think there are several similar things in antiquity. The good old fashioned crystal ball for example.

[Anijen]

I think there are several similar things in antiquity. The good old fashioned crystal ball for example.

Doh LOL guess I had that coming. I cant believe I didn't think of the parallel with the crystal ball

[consiglieri]

Doh LOL guess I had that coming. I cant believe I didn't think of the parallel with the crystal ball

I confess to not being well-versed in the uses of the crystal ball.

Are there any examples of entire books being revealed through looking into one?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[katherine the great]

I confess to not being well-versed in the uses of the crystal ball.

Are there any examples of entire books being revealed through looking into one?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I m not paticularly well versed in them either. I'm just pointing out the obvious. People have been using rocks in divination for thousands of years and in many cultures. Whether the diviner sees events, imagery, words, colors,pages, etc... Those seem to be variables.

[Flyonthewall]

The crystal ball is one of Satan's counterfeits. Anything the Lord has, Satan has a counterfeit. The Urimm & Thumim was used to receive revelation/judgment, and crystal balls have been used for looking into the future/fortunetelling(I don't claim to have much knowledge on crystal balls either).

[consiglieri]

I can't help but note that the sapphire which revealed the words of the Book of Raziel to Adam appeared to primarily constitute a telling of the future, consisting of the generations of all people who would ever live on the earth.

In this way, Adam's sapphire seems more like a crystal ball than Joseph's seer stone.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Senator]

The crystal ball is one of Satan's counterfeits. Anything the Lord has, Satan has a counterfeit. The Urimm & Thumim was used to receive revelation/judgment, and crystal balls have been used for looking into the future/fortunetelling(I don't claim to have much knowledge on crystal balls either).

I understand where you're coming from. But, can you see that from the perspective of a non believing spectator, your comment reflects much of 'the pot calling the kettle black'?

[Flyonthewall]

I understand where you're coming from. But, can you see that from the perspective of a non believing spectator, your comment reflects much of 'the pot calling the kettle black'?

I understand the differences of perspective. I am sure those that believe in the power of crystal balls do not share my POV, and that is okay. They are free to believe my beliefs are counterfeits of whatever they believe in.

[Avatar4321]

This is really interesting.

[hagoth7]

I can't help but note that the sapphire which revealed the words of the Book of Raziel to Adam appeared to primarily constitute a telling of the future, consisting of the generations of all people who would ever live on the earth.

In this way, Adam's sapphire seems more like a crystal ball than Joseph's seer stone.

It's clear that transmissions are out there - some genuine, some counterfeit.

Which is probably why seer stones and the like are dangerous in the wrong hands.

Still the emerald/crystal in the Raziel account intersects with a conference report talk I was re-reading last night, based on Magi's recent recommendation. Which is where modern science and Consig's post meet:

From President Faust:

"My first radio was a crystal set. It was hard to tune to the frequency of a particular radio station. I had to literally scratch the receiving wire whisker over the top of the rough crystal to find the right pinpoint, a little valley or peak on the crystal where the signal was received. Just a millimeter off on either side of that point and I would lose the signal and get scratchy static. Over time, with patience and perseverance, good eyesight, and a steady hand, I learned to find the signal point on the crystal without too much difficulty.

So it is with inspiration. We must attune ourselves to the inspiration from God and tune out the scratchy static. We have to work at being tuned in. Most of us need a long time to become tuned in. When I was a newly called General Authority, President Marion G. Romney, who was in his 70s at the time, told us, â??I know when I am working under the Spirit and when I am not.â? To be able to recognize when one is being guided by the Spirit is a supernal gift.

In terms of modern communication, crystal radio sets helped us emerge from the dark ages of communication. With advanced technology, cellular phones are used for much of the communication in our time. Occasionally, however, we find dead spots where the signal coming to a cell phone fails. This can happen when the cell phone user is in a tunnel or a canyon or when there is other interference.

So it is with divine communication. The still, small voice, though still and small, is very powerful. It â??whispereth through and pierceth all things.â? 13 But like my old crystal set, the message may be there but we fail to pick it up. Perhaps something in our lives prevents us from hearing the message because we are â??past feeling.â? 14 We often put ourselves in spiritual dead spotsâ??places and situations that block out divine messages."

I'm not into new age experiments. And I wasn't much into scouting, so never pursued the radio merit badge.

However, some crystals clearly are ultra-sensitive receivers.

Which makes the functional reality of something like the U&T (both the Old Testament and BofM versions) all the more interesting.

Thanks for a fun thread Consig.

[erichard]

This is really interesting.

I think so too.

I decided to read some of the Book of Raziel and right off found Mormonism in what the angel Raziel told Adam:

"O Adam, why art thou so fainthearted? ...I have received the charge to teach thee pure words and deep understanding, to make thee wise through the contents of the sacred book in my hand, to know what will happen to thee until the day of thy death. And all thy descendants and all the later generations, if they will but read this book in purity, with a devout heart and an humble mind, and obey its precepts, will become like unto thee. They, too, will foreknow what things shall happen, and in what month and on what day or in what night. All will be manifest to them--they will know and understand whether a calamity will come, a famine or wild beasts, floods or drought; whether there will be abundance of grain or dearth; whether the wicked will rule the world; whether locusts will devastate the land; whether the fruits will drop from the trees unripe; whether boils will afflict men; whether wars will prevail, or diseases or plagues among men and cattle; whether good is resolved upon in heaven, or evil; whether blood will flow, and the death-rattle of the slain be heard in the city. And now, Adam, come and give heed unto what I shall tell thee regarding the manner of this book and its holiness."

Richard

[firepatch36]

Since we are on a topic involving Adam, I am curious if LDS believe Adam was created with full speech capabilities or was taught to speak in much the same way children are?

Good question. I had always assumed Adam could speak, but I don't have anything really to completely back that up. I suppose he could have been taught. Who knows