4 Questions on Spirit Prison and Alma 40

[Mudcat]

Before you read further, I just wanted to take a moment and thank those who have kindly responded to the questions I have run in to with my current project. I know that most of the issues I have recently brought up are not the highly controversial nor emotionally charged sorts of threads that we all seem to enjoy, but I just wanted to let you guys/gals know that I have appreciated your expeditious and straightforward responses.

I was reading Alma 40 and it brought up some questions in regards to spirit prison.

Alma 40:

Verses 1-10 describe that Christ died for all to be bodily resurrected, and establishes that there is a space between mortal death, which leaves a space in which the soul is alive without the body.

11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrectionâ??Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.

12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.

13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evilâ??for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their houseâ??and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.

14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

Do LDS believe that this 'outer darkness that is spoke of is, what LDS term spirit prison?

Or if it is not spirit prison, we could draw the conclusion that Alma is not teaching this concept to Corianton, or is unaware of it, and this is teaching about hell. However, I don't actually see the term hell mentioned .

So for the sake of argument, I will assume that it is spirit prison. In fact, I don't know how pertinent Alma 40 is to my questions directly.

That being the assumed case, it got me thinking... â??Geez what a horrible placeâ? Given the verbiage weeping, wailing, gnashing. It sounds awful. It seems that LDS believe that there is the opportunity for choice in spirit prison. In fact they believe that there are good LDS who have passed on, that are ministering in this horrid place to bring about the redemption of these souls, even now as you read this post.

This whole train of thought has brought up a few questions.

1. If it is possible to save someone in spirit prison, is it equally possible for someone to apostatize themselves in paradise? This would make sense to me, given the concept of opposition in all things.

2.This seems a hard thing. Leaving a paradisaical state voluntarily to go to such a horrid place. Does such post mortal valiance count as a work?

3.Also, for those that minister to those in prison, with them being what I might term as removed much further from God's presence, if not totally removed from God's presence, visavis 'outer darkness', is the potential for them falling into apostasy increased?

4. If such preaching is considered a righteous work, could this provide an opportunity for some to make a mends for unrighteousness on earth?

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[Kate]

Hi Mudcat...

I'm making goodies and can't respond in length, but thought this article might help.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgne...0004d82620a____

~Kate

[annewandering]

I have enjoyed your posts quite a bit. Its nice to discuss gospel without the debates so much.

First off spirit prison is before judgment. Outer darkeness is generally referring to after the judgment. In this case however it is the same, apparently.

This brings me to wonder about outer darkness. I have understood it to be where no good thing can go. Period. If this being the case, is it like that after the judgment only and before it is possible to go there? Or are they two different places?

There is always room for doing Gods will. One thing about the LDS religion is there are no eternities of playing harps. We will always be progressing and learning even after death. There is no true 'final state' except outer darkness.

I have never considered if you can fall away after death. Not sure why you couldn't. I do doubt that it happens though.

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

Do LDS believe that this 'outer darkness that is spoke of is, what LDS term spirit prison?

Yes. It is common to refer to the hell after the resurrection as "outer darkness" in LDS culture. This passage, however, is speaking of the outer darkness BEFORE the resurrection that we usually now call "spirit prison." The context makes that perfectly clear, IMO.

1. If it is possible to save someone in spirit prison, is it equally possible for someone to apostatize themselves in paradise? This would make sense to me, given the concept of opposition in all things.

Who knows? Bruce R. McConkie was of the opinion that there is no apostasy after death since "this life" is the "day of probation." In his view, someone who was faithful here, isn't going to apostatize there.

If such preaching is considered a righteous work, could this provide an opportunity for some to make a mends for unrighteousness on earth?

Are you referring to the persons in prison having an opportunity to "make amends" or those doing the preaching? If you're referring to the first, I'd say absolutely yes. All sins will be forgiven man except blasphemy against the Holy Ghost which will not be forgiven in this world nor the next. If you're referring to the later, then I don't think so. I don't think they'd be preaching unless they had already repented and made amends.

[The Nehor]

Spirit Prison is hell, we try to sugarcoat it a bit and there is an escape but there shouldn't be any confusion that it is a horrible state. D&C gives a bit of a hint in Section 1 where the Savior described what he did and what those who do not repent must do.

1. I assume it's possible in the same sense that God could decide to sin but won't. Might fall into this category.

2&3. I don't think missionaries to it are in any danger. I don't think it's so much the place of the damned as the state of the damned. Even in this life missionaries leave comfortable environments to spend two years teaching the gospel in more impoverished circumstances and describe it as joy to do the work. Think about it, you're helping people to escape hell. The joy that would come from success must be phenomenal.

4. Yes, progression happens there as well. Though making amends is probably a bad way of putting it. It is more along the lines of humbling yourself before Christ. Could you partake of the divine nature there? Sure, why not? I've met people convinced that they'll repent then. I doubt it. If they're faithless now they'll probably be faithless then. If you repent on your death bed expect to meet someone giving you assignments and we'll see if you really repented or just tried to clear things up purely out of fear.

[Jason]

I'm mostly speculating here, but I think I'm on good ground.

Do LDS believe that this 'outer darkness that is spoke of is, what LDS term spirit prison?

Yes. Note that Alma says in verse 14 that the wicked will remain in this state "until the time of their resurrection."

That being the assumed case, it got me thinking... â??Geez what a horrible placeâ? Given the verbiage weeping, wailing, gnashing. It sounds awful.

I would say it's not so much the place as the people there, and their state of uncertainty and fear after their death.

1. If it is possible to save someone in spirit prison, is it equally possible for someone to apostatize themselves in paradise? This would make sense to me, given the concept of opposition in all things.

I suppose that it is possible, though I would guess that it is much more difficult to do so. For one thing, you have very good evidence that you were right about life after death and your state in it. Also it's possible that Jesus himself regularly ministers to the spirits in Paradise.

2.This seems a hard thing. Leaving a paradisaical state voluntarily to go to such a horrid place. Does such post mortal valiance count as a work?

I would think so, yes. Though if you are called to go minster to those in prison your state is most likely pretty good already. Also note that though it is "paradisaical", spirit paradise is not heaven.

3.Also, for those that minister to those in prison, with them being what I might term as removed much further from God's presence, if not totally removed from God's presence, visavis 'outer darkness', is the potential for them falling into apostasy increased?

I would guess no, not really. Does visiting people in prison in this life make it more likely that you will go commit crimes yourself?

4. If such preaching is considered a righteous work, could this provide an opportunity for some to make a mends for unrighteousness on earth?

Yes, although I think it unlikely that the unrighteous would be called to preach in the first place.

[consiglieri]

Before you read further, I just wanted to take a moment and thank those who have kindly responded to the questions I have run in to with my current project. I know that most of the issues I have recently brought up are not the highly controversial nor emotionally charged sorts of threads that we all seem to enjoy, but I just wanted to let you guys/gals know that I have appreciated your expeditious and straightforward responses.

Dear Mudcat!

Did you see where I responded in your thread about the scalping and the flag-waving?

As to your questions regarding Alma 40, they are all very good, but I am afraid my response would be that there is no indication in the Book of Mormon to my knowledge that its author(s) were aware of any opportunities for post-mortal salvation. (Alma 34:34)

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Lightbearer]

I was reading Alma 40 and it brought up some questions in regards to spirit prison.

Do LDS believe that this 'outer darkness that is spoke of is, what LDS term spirit prison?

This reference in Alma 40 is speaking of the spirit prison in which those who have not repented will go. (Not the final state of the sons of perdition known as outer darkness.)

1. If it is possible to save someone in spirit prison, is it equally possible for someone to apostatize themselves in paradise? This would make sense to me, given the concept of opposition in all things.

No there is no possible way for someone to apostatize from paradise. The reason being that Satan has no influence there and thus why would anyone apostatize? The reason paradise is called a place of rest, peace, and happiness is because when we reach that place we cannot fall.

2.This seems a hard thing. Leaving a paradisaical state voluntarily to go to such a horrid place. Does such post mortal valiance count as a work?

Why not? The reason Missionaries go forth in this world to teach the Gospel is because of their love of God and their fellow men. It is the same work only in different sphere's of infulence, we are greatly blessed because of our love and that is the central purpose of the Gospel.

3.Also, for those that minister to those in prison, with them being what I might term as removed much further from God's presence, if not totally removed from God's presence, visavis 'outer darkness', is the potential for them falling into apostasy increased?

Not at all, in fact quite the opposite, we can have the spirit of God burn strongly in our hearts even though we are in the middle of demons. Just as Jesus could come to this earth and be a lamb amid wolves or a dove among serpents, so his ministers will have His power to be with them to preach in the spirit prison to bring light to those in darkness.

4. If such preaching is considered a righteous work, could this provide an opportunity for some to make a mends for unrighteousness on earth?

Of course, that is the purpose for this work, in the hope that those in the world of spirits might repent and "live unto God in the spirit."

See the following:

(D&C 138:6-37, 57-60) 6 I opened the Bible and read the third and fourth chapters of the first epistle of Peter, and as I read I was greatly impressed, more than I had ever been before, with the following passages:

7 â??For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

8 â??By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

9 â??Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.â? (1 Peter 3:18â??20.)

10 â??For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.â? (1 Peter 4:6.)

11 As I pondered over these things which are written, the eyes of my understanding were opened, and the Spirit of the Lord rested upon me, and I saw the hosts of the dead, both small and great.

12 And there were gathered together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the just, who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality;

13 And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemerâ??s name.

14 All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

15 I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand.

16 They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death.

17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.

18 While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful;

19 And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance.

20 But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised;

21 Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face.

22 Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the righteous there was peace;

23 And the saints rejoiced in their redemption, and bowed the knee and acknowledged the Son of God as their Redeemer and Deliverer from death and the chains of hell.

24 Their countenances shone, and the radiance from the presence of the Lord rested upon them, and they sang praises unto his holy name.

25 I marveled, for I understood that the Savior spent about three years in his ministry among the Jews and those of the house of Israel, endeavoring to teach them the everlasting gospel and call them unto repentance;

26 And yet, notwithstanding his mighty works, and miracles, and proclamation of the truth, in great power and authority, there were but few who hearkened to his voice, and rejoiced in his presence, and received salvation at his hands.

27 But his ministry among those who were dead was limited to the brief time intervening between the crucifixion and his resurrection;

28 And I wondered at the words of Peterâ??wherein he said that the Son of God preached unto the spirits in prison, who sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noahâ??and how it was possible for him to preach to those spirits and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time.

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross.

36 Thus was it made known that our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of spirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh;

37 That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words... 57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

60 Thus was the vision of the redemption of the dead revealed to me, and I bear record, and I know that this record is true, through the blessing of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, even so. Amen.

I hope this clarifies the preaching to the dead in the spirit world.

Merry Christmas and God bless you in the New Year.

[Mudcat]

Hi Mudcat...

I'm making goodies and can't respond in length, but thought this article might help.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgne...0004d82620a____

~Kate

Hi Kate,

Goodies.... I love goodies.

I checked the article out and thanks for posting it. From a 2008 perspective it would clear the matter up and would indicate that Alma was teaching his son about spirit prison, however, if we take the Alma at his word without the current explanation... including the D&C, can we still draw the same conclusion?

Your Bud,

Mud

[Mudcat]

I have enjoyed your posts quite a bit. Its nice to discuss gospel without the debates so much.

Thanks for the kind words Anne. As anyone here can tell you, I am not an effective debater. I picture myself more of Howard Cosell with a intermittent attitude complex.

First off spirit prison is before judgment. Outer darkeness is generally referring to after the judgment. In this case however it is the same, apparently.

This brings me to wonder about outer darkness. I have understood it to be where no good thing can go. Period. If this being the case, is it like that after the judgment only and before it is possible to go there? Or are they two different places?

There is always room for doing Gods will. One thing about the LDS religion is there are no eternities of playing harps. We will always be progressing and learning even after death. There is no true 'final state' except outer darkness.

I suppose it is an interesting concept, actually. One would have to put themselves in the position of interpreting the distant past based upon knowledge from the recent past that was likely unavailable in its entirety in the time of Alma. However, it does seem apparent that Alma seems to believe in a prejudgment holding area for the wicked which is prior to hell.

I have never considered if you can fall away after death. Not sure why you couldn't. I do doubt that it happens though.

It certainly moves the goal posts back, in regards to 'enduring to the end' if such is the case.

Merry Christmas,

Mudcat

[Mudcat]

Yes. It is common to refer to the hell after the resurrection as "outer darkness" in LDS culture. This passage, however, is speaking of the outer darkness BEFORE the resurrection that we usually now call "spirit prison." The context makes that perfectly clear, IMO.

Then based on my very limited knowledge, this is one of the best descriptives of such a place.

Are you referring to the persons in prison having an opportunity to "make amends" or those doing the preaching? If you're referring to the first, I'd say absolutely yes. All sins will be forgiven man except blasphemy against the Holy Ghost which will not be forgiven in this world nor the next. If you're referring to the later, then I don't think so. I don't think they'd be preaching unless they had already repented and made amends.

Well, I will give you a case in point. One particular brother-in-law I have was more wayward than his siblings. He has done a complete turnaround in regards to repentance, he serves as the local MP at his branch and many would term him good LDS. We had a discussion once, and he feels that some of his sins were made while he had good understanding/light of his sin. He feels in some way he will be accountable for those sins. I suppose my thought would be, if he can't counterbalance his transgressions here.. do you think it is possible that he could counterbalance them through his work in the afterlife? That is just an example, of course... but it's the one I was thinking of when I wrote the question.

Merry Christmas G,

Mud

[annewandering]

Thank you for that post. It was very clarifying. You always manage to do that so well, lightbearer.

[Mudcat]

Spirit Prison is hell, we try to sugarcoat it a bit and there is an escape but there shouldn't be any confusion that it is a horrible state. D&C gives a bit of a hint in Section 1 where the Savior described what he did and what those who do not repent must do.

I am not at D&C1, but I'll take your word for it.

1. I assume it's possible in the same sense that God could decide to sin but won't. Might fall into this category.

See, I am not so sure about this.... reason being, you are still dealing with an unexalted person, in either case.

I appreciate the fact that you allude to the potential for such a choice, but I suppose as I see it, if for example the Gospel is preached to those in SP, they shouldn't have a greater chance at being successful in their decision than if they were here. This would seem to make God a respecter of persons. If you can take that as a given, would it make God a respecter of persons to make maintaining your salvation easier in paradise, than it would be here?

2&3. I don't think missionaries to it are in any danger. I don't think it's so much the place of the damned as the state of the damned. Even in this life missionaries leave comfortable environments to spend two years teaching the gospel in more impoverished circumstances and describe it as joy to do the work. Think about it, you're helping people to escape hell. The joy that would come from success must be phenomenal.

If you have never, ever heard of a missionary who left the church during a mission then I can buy this.

4. Yes, progression happens there as well. Though making amends is probably a bad way of putting it. It is more along the lines of humbling yourself before Christ. Could you partake of the divine nature there? Sure, why not? I've met people convinced that they'll repent then. I doubt it. If they're faithless now they'll probably be faithless then. If you repent on your death bed expect to meet someone giving you assignments and we'll see if you really repented or just tried to clear things up purely out of fear.

Well making amends may not be the best term, but if all this is the reality it makes sense.

Merry Christmas Nehor,

Mudcat

[Cold Steel]

It's interesting to see how even LDS can differ in their beliefs and understanding.

According to Mormon Doctrine:

Hell: That part of the spirit world inhabited by wicked spirits who are awaiting the eventual day of their resurrection is called hell. Between their death and resurrection, these souls of the wicked are cast out into outer darkness, into the gloomy depression of sheol, into the hades of waiting wicked spirits, into hell. There they suffer the torments of the damned; there they welter in the vengeance of eternal fire; there is found weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth; there the fiery indignation of the wrath of God is poured out upon the wicked. (Alma 40:11-14; D. & C. 76:103-106.)

Hell will have an end. Viewing future events, John saw that "death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." (Rev. 20:13.) Jacob taught that this escape from death and hell meant the bringing of the body out of the grave and the spirit out of hell. "And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death," he said, "shall deliver up its dead; which spiritual death is hell; wherefore, death and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive spirits, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies and the spirits of men will be restored one to the other." (2 Ne. 9:10-12.) It was in keeping with this principle for David to receive the promise: "Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell." (Ps 16:10; Acts 2:27.)

After their resurrection, the great majority of those who have suffered in hell will pass into the telestial kingdom; the balance, cursed as sons of perdition, will be consigned to partake of endless wo with the devil and his angels.

Spirit Prison: Since disembodied spirits cannot gain a fulness of joy until their resurrection (D. & C. 93:33-34), they consider their habitation in the spirit world as one of imprisonment, and so the whole spirit world (including both paradise and hell) is a spirit prison. It was to the righteous spirits in prison, those who were in paradise that our Lord preached while his body was in the tomb. (1 Pet. 3:18-21; 4:6; D. & C. 76:73-74.)

In the vision of the redemption of the dead, President Joseph F. Smith saw that during his ministry to the spirits in prison, "the Lord went not in person among the wicked and disobedient who had rejected the truth," but that he went "declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful," to the vast assemblage of the righteous, for they "had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage." (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed., pp. 472-476.)

2. In a more particular sense, however, the spirit prison is hell, that portion of the spirit world where the wicked dwell. (Moses 7:37-39.) Before Christ bridged the gulf between paradise and hell - so that the righteous could mingle with the wicked and preach them the gospel - the wicked in hell were confined to locations which precluded them from contact with the righteous in paradise. Abraham told the rich man in hell that between him and Lazarus (who was in paradise) there was a great gulf fixed so that none could go from paradise to hell or from hell to paradise. (Luke 16:19-31.)

Now that the righteous spirits in paradise have been commissioned to carry the message of salvation to the wicked spirits in hell, there is a certain amount of mingling together of the good and bad spirits. Repentance opens the prison doors to the spirits in hell; it enables those bound with the chains of hell to free themselves from darkness, unbelief, ignorance, and sin. As rapidly as they can overcome these obstacles - gain light, believe truth, acquire intelligence, cast off sin, and break the chains of hell - they can leave the hell that imprisons them and dwell with the righteous in the peace of paradise.

[Mudcat]

Hi Jason,

I don't think we have conversed much, but I have read some or your posts and appreciate you contribution.

I'm mostly speculating here, but I think I'm on good ground.

From what I can gather most of the responses are speculation, so you are in good company.

Yes. Note that Alma says in verse 14 that the wicked will remain in this state "until the time of their resurrection."

I think you have touched on interesting point here. I suppose this is why I considered the possibility that this was hell even though the moniker 'hell' did not appear in the text. Though as others have noted this 'place' seems to be surrounding a prejudgment period.

I would say it's not so much the place as the people there, and their state of uncertainty and fear after their death.

Nehor, seems to see things the same way. From my own experience, you can work in a wonderful building, but if you are working with jerks it can be a real grind. A poor analogy might be the Trade Towers(before they got devastated)... lets say one was full of great co-workers and the other was full of jerks. The buildings are identical, but the employees are the ones that set the work environment.

I suppose that it is possible, though I would guess that it is much more difficult to do so. For one thing, you have very good evidence that you were right about life after death and your state in it. Also it's possible that Jesus himself regularly ministers to the spirits in Paradise.

Going with my trade tower analogy, lets just say that the mission efforts were conducted by Mission Pizza, this company was located in the Paradise Tower. Periodically Mission Pizza is called to deliver pizza to different offices in the Prison Tower. In fact they get called to deliver it a lot, because true to their motto..."Mission Pizza tastes heavenly". But lets say one of the Mission Pizza delivery boys gets approached by top level mgmt. from "Sinfully Good Pizza" which is located in the Prison Tower and the mgmt. of "SGP" offers the "MP" more money to work for them.

Granted the pizza analogy is pretty lame, but hopefully, you will get my drift.

I would think so, yes. Though if you are called to go minster to those in prison your state is most likely pretty good already. Also note that though it is "paradisaical", spirit paradise is not heaven.

Ok , that makes sense to me.

I would guess no, not really. Does visiting people in prison in this life make it more likely that you will go commit crimes yourself?

I don't know the answer to that one. If I go visit a guy in prison here, he is behind glass or bars, I don't think the other would be a similar environment.

Yes, although I think it unlikely that the unrighteous would be called to preach in the first place.

Well, I don't think any are righteous of their own accord, so it might be construed that all the preach... save Christ are unrighteous.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[Mudcat]

Dear Mudcat!

Did you see where I responded in your thread about the scalping and the flag-waving?

No.... but yes, now that you have said it.

As to your questions regarding Alma 40, they are all very good, but I am afraid my response would be that there is no indication in the Book of Mormon to my knowledge that its author(s) were aware of any opportunities for post-mortal salvation. (Alma 34:34)

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I would agree with you.. that it seems there was no awareness of post-mortal salvation. But their at least was an awareness that there were post-mortal yet prejudgment 'areas' of consignment for the dead until judgment. I suppose I am stepping ahead a bit from my reading, but if we conclude that this 'place' was actually defined by Alma it's interesting, isn't it.

Merry Christmas Brother,

Mudcat

[Mudcat]

This reference in Alma 40 is speaking of the spirit prison in which those who have not repented will go. (Not the final state of the sons of perdition known as outer darkness.)

Hey Lightbearer,

Thanks for stopping in. What do you think Alma meant when he used the term 'outer darkness'?

No there is no possible way for someone to apostatize from paradise. The reason being that Satan has no influence there and thus why would anyone apostatize? The reason paradise is called a place of rest, peace, and happiness is because when we reach that place we cannot fall.

That is a plausible explanation. But what about those who go into his presence?

Why not? The reason Missionaries go forth in this world to teach the Gospel is because of their love of God and their fellow men. It is the same work only in different sphere's of infulence, we are greatly blessed because of our love and that is the central purpose of the Gospel.

I posited to Nehor, that if it is possible for a missionary to apostatize themselves here, the why not there?

Not at all, in fact quite the opposite, we can have the spirit of God burn strongly in our hearts even though we are in the middle of demons. Just as Jesus could come to this earth and be a lamb amid wolves or a dove among serpents, so his ministers will have His power to be with them to preach in the spirit prison to bring light to those in darkness.

I have heard others so far describe spirit prison as more of a social division than a physical one. I think the above question, is relevant here as well.

Of course, that is the purpose for this work, in the hope that those in the world of spirits might repent and "live unto God in the spirit."

See the following:I hope this clarifies the preaching to the dead in the spirit world.

In light of your cited passage from the D&C, the question I would ask is how faithful do you have to be, to be considered a faithful elder?

Merry Christmas and God bless you in the New Year.

I can only reciprocate the well wishes my friend.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[Garden Girl]

Hello Mudcat...

I'll just make an observation from personal experience... in regard to the "wayward" brother-in-law you mentioned.

I think he needs to study the scriptures more, including bible, D&C, and BoM... in regard to repentance...

You've heard me mention here that I walked in the "world" for many years... and as a young woman I committed several "sins" that were not earth shattering, but certainly would not please Heavenly Father... When I reactivated in Church 13 years ago, I made it a specific point to repent of those sins... and I prayed at great length about them and whether my repentance was acceptable and forgiveness given... finally one morning early when yet again I was engaged in soulful prayer, it was made know to me very clearly that my repentance was acceptable. So now I simply cling to the scriptures regarding repentence, in particular Isaiah 1:18..."Come now and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow; though they be red like crimsom, they shall be as wool."

And... D&C 58:42... "Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, will remember them no more."

This is the day of our probation and we should fully repent of our sins and offer a broken heart and contrite spirit... and believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ... and go our way and sin no more. If we do transgress, then we need to repent and move forward. It is my understanding that those who go to spirit prison upon death are those who have not repented of their sins... there they will be taught the gospel... See D&C 138: 57-60 quoted by Lightbearer...

GG

[charity's child]

Spirit Prison is hell, we try to sugarcoat it a bit and there is an escape but there shouldn't be any confusion that it is a horrible state. D&C gives a bit of a hint in Section 1 where the Savior described what he did and what those who do not repent must do.

1. I assume it's possible in the same sense that God could decide to sin but won't. Might fall into this category.

2&3. I don't think missionaries to it are in any danger. I don't think it's so much the place of the damned as the state of the damned. Even in this life missionaries leave comfortable environments to spend two years teaching the gospel in more impoverished circumstances and describe it as joy to do the work. Think about it, you're helping people to escape hell. The joy that would come from success must be phenomenal.

4. Yes, progression happens there as well. Though making amends is probably a bad way of putting it. It is more along the lines of humbling yourself before Christ. Could you partake of the divine nature there? Sure, why not? I've met people convinced that they'll repent then. I doubt it. If they're faithless now they'll probably be faithless then. If you repent on your death bed expect to meet someone giving you assignments and we'll see if you really repented or just tried to clear things up purely out of fear.

[charity's child]

I am not at D&C1, but I'll take your word for it.

See, I am not so sure about this.... reason being, you are still dealing with an unexalted person, in either case.

I appreciate the fact that you allude to the potential for such a choice, but I suppose as I see it, if for example the Gospel is preached to those in SP, they shouldn't have a greater chance at being successful in their decision than if they were here. This would seem to make God a respecter of persons. If you can take that as a given, would it make God a respecter of persons to make maintaining your salvation easier in paradise, than it would be here?

If you have never, ever heard of a missionary who left the church during a mission then I can buy this.

One thing we believe is that the spirit we take with us at death is the spirit we keep with us - in other words, if I am a rebellious, ungrateful, prideful bleep when I die, I'll be rebellious, ungrateful, and prideful when I arrive in spirit prison. If I am a humble willing servant, I'll still be humble and willing. Those is SP will not have a greater chance at being successful in humbling themselves. On the contrary, it will be much more difficult. And it will be equally difficult to stray. Since it will be difficult to stray, and those in paradise (even if they are preaching to the spirits in prison) will have easy access to the greatest Teacher of all, why would they stray?

Well making amends may not be the best term, but if all this is the reality it makes sense.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by your comment. Do you mean you think that preaching is making amends or that repenting in spirit prison is making amends? Either way, I know that you cannot "make amends". If you are Christ's own you serve him. If you are not, you change to become one of his own.

Sorry to jump in, but Nehor said exactly what I would have said, so I thought I'd jump in.

So Merry Christmas from ME!

[BCSpace]

I don't think there is any real differentiation between Spirit Prison and Hell. They are one and the same. The differentiation comes in the redeeming of those from hell vs. those who remain in hell after the judgement.

In the LDS Guide to the Scriptures, when one looks up "Spirit Prison" one is referred to "Hell". Here is part of that entry....

Latter-day revelation speaks of hell in at least two senses. First, it is the temporary abode in the spirit world for those who were disobedient in mortality. In this sense, hell has an end. The spirits there will be taught the gospel, and sometime following their repentance they will be resurrected to a degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who will not repent, but are nevertheless not sons of perdition, will remain in hell throughout the Millennium. After these thousand years of torment, they will be resurrected to a telestial glory (D&C 76: 81-86; 88: 100-101).

Second, it is the permanent location of those who are not redeemed by the atonement of Jesus Christ. In this sense, hell is permanent. It is for those who are found â??filthy stillâ? (D&C 88: 35, 102). This is the place where Satan, his angels, and the sons of perditionâ??those who have denied the Son after the Father has revealed himâ??will dwell eternally (D&C 76: 43-46).

The scriptures sometimes refer to hell as outer darkness.

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

Well, I will give you a case in point. One particular brother-in-law I have was more wayward than his siblings. He has done a complete turnaround in regards to repentance, he serves as the local MP at his branch and many would term him good LDS. We had a discussion once, and he feels that some of his sins were made while he had good understanding/light of his sin. He feels in some way he will be accountable for those sins. I suppose my thought would be, if he can't counterbalance his transgressions here.. do you think it is possible that he could counterbalance them through his work in the afterlife? That is just an example, of course... but it's the one I was thinking of when I wrote the question.

That's interesting that he feels that way. I personally reject the idea. I think that once you've repented, you're forgiven. I don't think he has to do more good works to make up the difference. He just has to continue faithful to his conversion. The parable of the workers in the field come to mind. All were paid the same, even though some worked much longer than others.

For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard. About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ So they went. He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

”‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. ‘These men who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

But he answered one of them, ‘Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

So the last will be first, and the first will be last. (Matt.20: 1-16)

[Jason]

I checked the article out and thanks for posting it. From a 2008 perspective it would clear the matter up and would indicate that Alma was teaching his son about spirit prison, however, if we take the Alma at his word without the current explanation... including the D&C, can we still draw the same conclusion?

Why shouldn't we include D&C in determining what happens here? If God has seen fit to grant us extra light and knowledge on the subject, why should we ignore it and try to use only Alma's understanding?

[consiglieri]

Why shouldn't we include D&C in determining what happens here?

Because Alma lost his copy.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Mudcat]

Why shouldn't we include D&C in determining what happens here? If God has seen fit to grant us extra light and knowledge on the subject, why should we ignore it and try to use only Alma's understanding?

You actually cleared this up for me in a later post Jason. And I am not discounting the D&C, but I think its interesting to try and see this through the eyes of Alma, as well.

Part of my thought, was if Alma was describing spirit prison and the article wasn't clear about. In fact the article cited Alma 40 as a 'hell' descriptive. I think part of my read through the BoM is seeing how it fits with modern LDS thought, but I think its equally important that if the BoM is true, that we try and determine what 'light' these people had. I suppose my thought is that by trying to watch this process unfold may yield a deeper insight. A poor analogy might be that I would most likely understand more of Picasso if I could perceive him painting the Mona Lisa than just by looking at the Mona Lisa.