Do The Lds Teach That God The Father Never Sinned?

[jkfrost]

Do the LDS teach that God the Father Never Sinned?

Please give references if you have them.

I have some of my own answers but would like to see what you have to say.

There is a website that says we believe that God the Father sinned.

What say ye?

[The Nehor]

There is a website that says we believe that God the Father sinned.

What say ye?

He created me. He's capable of anything.

[thesometimesaint]

The Nehor:

That just proves that God has a great sense of humor.

No. The Church does not teach that God the Father ever sinned.

[jkfrost]

The Nehor:

That just proves that God has a great sense of humor.

No. The Church does not teach that God the Father ever sinned.

Then the premise of the website ( not mentioned here ) is incorrect.

Do you have a reference, a ref that Nehor is funny that is.

I mean a ref from a Prophet or scripture for your comment that we do not teach it ( that God never sinned ).

[cjcampbell]

If God the Father ever sinned, He repented of it and accepted atonement for it long before he ever even became God the Father. Whatever He was before He was God the Father, if He ever was anything else, has, for all practical purposes, ceased to exist. It became something else -- God the Father. Whatever He was before that is absolutely meaningless and completely speculative.

It will be the same with us. Celestial, eternal beings are so different from our current selves that it is almost ridiculous to say that we are the same thing.

[Mark Beesley]

Then the premise of the website ( not mentioned here ) is incorrect.

Do you have a reference, a ref that Nehor is funny that is.

I mean a ref from a Prophet or scripture for your comment that we do not teach it ( that God never sinned ).

Do you have a reference from a Prophet or a scripture that shows that we do teach it? It's kind of backwards to ask for a reference to show that we don't teach something. For example, can you provide a reference to show that we do not teach that the moon is hollow?

[thesometimesaint]

jkfrost:

Not off the top of my head. But Christ said He did nothing that He did not see His Father do, and that Christ was a sinless man. So logic would dictate that God the Father never sinned either. For the rest of us I apply for repentance often.

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

Misrepresentation, the Church does not teach that any member of the Godhead ever sinned, so obtaining a source definatively stating God's sinful or sinlesses state likely doesn't exist. I'm betting they would accept my source as proof that God the Father never sinned, but that is because its the same source the anti-Mormons use to claim we teach that God did sin.

The King Follett Discourse

We know nothing about what is meant by God the Father was "once as we are", as per the King Follett Discourse, it never makes any such conclusion that God sinned, only, "if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in formâ??like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God". Furthermore, the King Follett Discourse also says something very interesting that makes people think that maybe God the Father was a lot like Jesus. "God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible." It doesn't reference the scripture, but it was perhaps where Christ said that He "only" did the things He had "seen" the Father do (John 5:19) Did God live like Jesus during his mortal life? Could God the Father have been a mortal man "like us", like Jesus did, and still be sinless? I would think so.

((We are not bound to believe all that is taught in that source, if it conflicts in any way with the established canon, although some elements of it have been given credence and support by subsequent Church leaders, but we can't declair any teaching in this sources that is not thought to first have a doctrinal foundation. There are errors in the written report, as evidenced by footnotes to the record in "Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith", so there is the potential for less obvious scribal errors to exist. But many members do believe it, so many are inclined to defend it, but you really don't have to.))

[The Nehor]

Do you have a reference, a ref that Nehor is funny that is.

The Spirit whispers this to me and tells me it is true.....and tells me it is true.

Either that or I'm deluded.

[jkfrost]

Misrepresentation, the Church does not teach that any member of the Godhead ever sinned, so obtaining a source definatively stating God's sinful or sinlesses state likely doesn't exist. I'm betting they would accept my source as proof that God the Father never sinned, but that is because its the same source the anti-Mormons use to claim we teach that God did sin.

The King Follett Discourse

We know nothing about what is meant by God the Father was "once as we are", as per the King Follett Discourse, it never makes any such conclusion that God sinned, only, "if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in formâ??like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God". Furthermore, the King Follett Discourse also says something very interesting that makes people think that maybe God the Father was a lot like Jesus. "God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible." It doesn't reference the scripture, but it was perhaps where Christ said that He "only" did the things He had "seen" the Father do (John 5:19) Did God live like Jesus during his mortal life? Could God the Father have been a mortal man "like us", like Jesus did, and still be sinless? I would think so.

((We are not bound to believe all that is taught in that source, if it conflicts in any way with the established canon, although some elements of it have been given credence and support by subsequent Church leaders, but we can't declair any teaching in this sources that is not thought to first have a doctrinal foundation. There are errors in the written report, as evidenced by footnotes to the record in "Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith", so there is the potential for less obvious scribal errors to exist. But many members do believe it, so many are inclined to defend it, but you really don't have to.))

Yes that is the quote that I have as well not sure of any others this specific - :

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!

That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world its in orbit,

and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible -- I say,

if you were to see him today you would see him like a man in form -- like yourselves in all the person,

image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God,

and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with him,

as one man talks and communes with another...

These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel

to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him

as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself,

the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did;

and I will show it from the Bible.

I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel,

so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease for ever.

What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said,

As the Father hath power in Himself, even so hath the Son power -- to do what?

Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious -- in a manner to lay down His body and take it up again.

Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again.

Do we believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible.

The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined

powers of earth and hell together to refute it.

What did Jesus do? Why; I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence.

My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom,

I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory.

He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself.

So that Jesus treads in the tracks of his Father, and inherits what God did before;

and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children. "

###

The Son was sinless like unto his Father, in order to be a "sinless sacrifice" it had to be so.

as far as I know.

[semlogo]

The Nehor:

That just proves that God has a great sense of humor.

No. The Church does not teach that God the Father ever sinned.

I don't think there is any official doctrine on it at all.

[smac97]

Do the LDS teach that God the Father Never Sinned?

I think the answer is "Implicitly, yes."

Frankly, Mormons don't talk about the finer points of the King Follett Discourse nearly as much as outsiders do. We know little or nothing about these topics.

Please give references if you have them.

I have some of my own answers but would like to see what you have to say.

There is a website that says we believe that God the Father sinned.

What say ye?

I say not to spend much time on such websites. They have little or no value. One fellow (Aaron Shafovaloff) delights in suggesting that Mormons believe that God the Father could have been a homosexual drag queen (see here).

These guys are just trying to be offensive (and succeeding at it). Pay them no heed.

-Smac

[Matthew J. Tandy]

I personally have no problem with the view that God the Father could have been a sinner in some mortal realm. In fact, it makes sense to me, as does a God that may "lie" from time to time to accomplish righteousness and such. He is God, so I trust his judgment much more than my own. However, the reality is that we simply don't know and it is all mere speculation. We certainly, as far as I can ever recall, NEVER teach that he sinned. It is also true that many refer to him as sinless. Being sinless now doesn't mean he was sinless before some atonement type event, but who cares? I do know that sinful me has been promised by sinless Him that I can be like him. I take that to mean that I will be considered sinless and should I ever be a "God the Father" over my own eternal offspring in some other world or galaxy or whatever, I will be referred to them as sinless, because I will be.

[BCSpace]

Do the LDS teach that God the Father Never Sinned?

Please give references if you have them.

I'd have to say that the doctrinal implication is that he did sin. For example.....

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: â??When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospelâ??you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the graveâ? (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348).

This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: â??It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. â?¦ He was once a man like us; â?¦ God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself didâ? (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345â??46).

Chapter 47: Exaltation,â? Gospel Principles, 301

Theosis is the only method mentioned in the scriptures as the way Gods are made.

However, from the same reference.....

Our Heavenly Father knows our trials, our weaknesses, and our sins. He has compassion and mercy on us. He wants us to succeed even as he did.

This is a akin to a description of Jesus here.....

11 And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people.

12 And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities.

Alma 7

So Jesus is an example of a sinless man becomming a God. But seeing as how it takes only one to Atone for the sins of a universe, I'd say it's much more likely tha the Father was once a sinful man like any other mortal here on earth who at some point accepted the Gospel and repented.

[Lightbearer]

This is the classic Anti-Mormon question, the reason is they believe it is blasphemy for us mere evil men to think we can become as God the Father now is, that is why Jesus was crucified and why all the Saints and Prophets of all ages were and are persecuted. While the KFD does indicate the Father was a "Christ" on another earth it is not conclusive as such. That is probably why President Hinckley said we do not know much about that (God the Father's mortal existence) But ironically the question does raise a concern that is even more troubling. It implies that the atonement of Christ is not infinite and eternal... it implies that all repentant sinners are not somehow totally cleansed and purified by the blood of Christ, nor is He capable of making us worthy and without spot. To me these "so-called christians" are denying the grace and mercy of God by saying that we never could become perfect as He is perfect. It is a doctrine that to me is rather Anti-Christ in nature, the defeatist Satanic accusers voice that no matter what we never can be like God, that Christ's atonement is not powerful enough to wash our sins though they be of scarlet can be as white as the snow. It is the denial of our God given agency that allows us to choose to become as our Father is A GOD or to fall short by our own lack of valiance. Jesus Christ implored us to come and follow Him, why? So we could become like Him through His grace and our use of agency and faith. So in reality it does not matter one wit if God the Father was a "vile sinner" as our enemies like to suppose or if He was sinless because He chose to do His Father's will (which is what I personally believe Joseph was teaching in the KFD) either way He now is "MAN OF HOLINESS" just as He desires of all His sons to become. That is what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is for, so we all can be where they are and do what they are doing. We are a race of Gods in "evolution" (the correct use of that term) we started as spirit children born from uncreated intelligence (another concept we do not fully understand) we were raised in the Mansions of our Eternal Parents, Father and Mother until we had developed to the stage where we could take upon ourselves tabernacles of flesh so that our faith and obedience could be put to the test (the second test) the first test (our spirit existence) one third of our brothers and sisters failed and were cast out for rebellion. Those who remained true and faithful were born into this mortal existence for the purpose of proving worthy and developing our faith and love so that we see if we will follow the Father in all things so that if we pass these tests and trials of life we may have blessings poured upon our heads forever and ever.

[BCSpace]

This is the classic Anti-Mormon question, the reason is they believe it is blasphemy for us mere evil men to think we can become as God the Father now is, that is why Jesus was crucified and why all the Saints and Prophets of all ages were and are persecuted. While the KFD does indicate the Father was a "Christ" on another earth it is not conclusive as such.

I just tell them my God is more powerful than their god because my God can make other Gods!

[Bat-Man]

Sin is anything which is not in agreement with God's will, so in what sense does anyone think it is possible for God to have ever gone against His own will ???

Think before speaking, my brothers ands sisters. Seriously.

[jadams_4242]

Yes that is the quote that I have as well not sure of any others this specific - :

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!

That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world its in orbit,

and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible -- I say,

if you were to see him today you would see him like a man in form -- like yourselves in all the person,

image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God,

and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with him,

as one man talks and communes with another...

These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel

to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him

as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself,

the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did;

and I will show it from the Bible.

I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel,

so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease for ever.

What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said,

As the Father hath power in Himself, even so hath the Son power -- to do what?

Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious -- in a manner to lay down His body and take it up again.

Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again.

Do we believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible.

The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined

powers of earth and hell together to refute it.

What did Jesus do? Why; I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence.

My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom,

I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory.

He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself.

So that Jesus treads in the tracks of his Father, and inherits what God did before;

and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children. "

###

The Son was sinless like unto his Father, in order to be a "sinless sacrifice" it had to be so.

as far as I know.

He was not God when he was a mortal; just as we are not Gods. God did not sin.

[alswell]

This is the classic Anti-Mormon question, the reason is they believe it is blasphemy for us mere evil men to think we can become as God the Father now is, that is why Jesus was crucified and why all the Saints and Prophets of all ages were and are persecuted. While the KFD does indicate the Father was a "Christ" on another earth it is not conclusive as such. That is probably why President Hinckley said we do not know much about that (God the Father's mortal existence) But ironically the question does raise a concern that is even more troubling. It implies that the atonement of Christ is not infinite and eternal... it implies that all repentant sinners are not somehow totally cleansed and purified by the blood of Christ, nor is He capable of making us worthy and without spot. To me these "so-called christians" are denying the grace and mercy of God by saying that we never could become perfect as He is perfect. It is a doctrine that to me is rather Anti-Christ in nature, the defeatist Satanic accusers voice that no matter what we never can be like God, that Christ's atonement is not powerful enough to wash our sins though they be of scarlet can be as white as the snow. It is the denial of our God given agency that allows us to choose to become as our Father is A GOD or to fall short by our own lack of valiance. Jesus Christ implored us to come and follow Him, why? So we could become like Him through His grace and our use of agency and faith. So in reality it does not matter one wit if God the Father was a "vile sinner" as our enemies like to suppose or if He was sinless because He chose to do His Father's will (which is what I personally believe Joseph was teaching in the KFD) either way He now is "MAN OF HOLINESS" just as He desires of all His sons to become. That is what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is for, so we all can be where they are and do what they are doing. We are a race of Gods in "evolution" (the correct use of that term) we started as spirit children born from uncreated intelligence (another concept we do not fully understand) we were raised in the Mansions of our Eternal Parents, Father and Mother until we had developed to the stage where we could take upon ourselves tabernacles of flesh so that our faith and obedience could be put to the test (the second test) the first test (our spirit existence) one third of our brothers and sisters failed and were cast out for rebellion. Those who remained true and faithful were born into this mortal existence for the purpose of proving worthy and developing our faith and love so that we see if we will follow the Father in all things so that if we pass these tests and trials of life we may have blessings poured upon our heads forever and ever.

My question is how did he get the power to become God in the first place? Jesus had the Father, so by what means did the first man become God?

May God Bless You,

Alswell

[thesometimesaint]

jadams_4040 :

Yet in the Bible alone we have two references(The Psalmist and Jesus Himself) to statements that "Ye Are Gods".

Ps. alswell:

We don't know the exact process, but Jesus was definitely a man, and he is now God.

[BCSpace]

Sin is anything which is not in agreement with God's will, so in what sense does anyone think it is possible for God to have ever gone against His own will ???

No sense at all unless God decides to abdicate. But when the homo sapiens who become our God was mortal himself, he likely was not a God.

Think before speaking, my brothers ands sisters. Seriously.

Indeed.

[Lightbearer]

My question is how did he get the power to become God in the first place? Jesus had the Father, so by what means did the first man become God?

May God Bless You,

Alswell

From His Father obviously. There was no "first" just as there will be no "last" man or God, that is the definition of Eternity and Infinitiy. Beyond that we cannot comprehend what eternity is all about. As for the means of becoming a God, that is the purpose of the plan of salvation known as the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[alswell]

jadams_4040 :

Yet in the Bible alone we have two references(The Psalmist and Jesus Himself) to statements that "Ye Are Gods".

Ps. alswell:

We don't know the exact process, but Jesus was definitely a man, and he is now God.

This is the only scripture in the bible I could find easily containing "You are gods" is this what you were referring to?

Psalm 82:5-7 (New International Version)

5 "They know nothing, they understand nothing.

They walk about in darkness;

all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 "I said, 'You are "gods";

you are all sons of the Most High.'

7 But you will die like mere men;

you will fall like every other ruler."

The gods being referred to will die, I don't think that is what Mormonism wishes to convey is it? Do you happen to know where the other one is?

May God Bless You,

Alswell

[alswell]

This is the only scripture in the bible I could find easily containing "You are gods" is this what you were referring to?

Psalm 82:5-7 (New International Version)

5 "They know nothing, they understand nothing.

They walk about in darkness;

all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 "I said, 'You are "gods";

you are all sons of the Most High.'

7 But you will die like mere men;

you will fall like every other ruler."

The gods being referred to will die, I don't think that is what Mormonism wishes to convey is it? Do you happen to know where the other one is?

May God Bless You,

Alswell

I found it John 10:33-39

33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[e]? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God cameâ??and the Scripture cannot be brokenâ?? 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

If I am understanding this in verse Jesus is quoting the Psalm 82:5-7 and is asking them why they wish to kill him for claiming to be God's son.

May God Bless You,

Alswell

[kamenraider]

Don't we learn in the temple about how Father gained his knowledge? That's pretty official isn't it?

I suppose if you wanted to get technical you could speculate that He went through mortality as a savior of his world and thus lived a sinless life, though.

Some people interpret Joseph Smith's remarks about Jesus doing what he saw that Father do to mean just that.

Some Mormon fundamentalists who believe in Adam-God, though, interpret these remarks of Joseph Smith to mean that Adam is God the Father and that Jesus saw him go through mortality here, lay down his life, and take it up again.