Understanding The Atonement

[consiglieri]

I have just completed writing out my sacrament talk for this Sunday, dealing with the Atonement of Jesus Christ. It is a talk I will never give because I think I may have exceeded my 10-15 minute allotment by a tad.

I would be more than interested in comments from board members on any part of it.

All the Best!

And a Happy Thanksgiving!

--Consiglieri

______________

UNDERSTANDING THE ATONEMENT

I. Introduction

I was asked to speak for 10-15 minutes on the subject of the Atonement. My first thought was, â??Heck, Iâ??ve spent 30-years trying to understand the Atonement and still havenâ??t succeeded.â? And besides, who can explain the Atonement in 10-15 minutes, anyway?

Then I was told I might want to focus my comments on how a father teaches his family about the Atonement. That was when I knew I could talk on that subject for even less than 10 minutes. I started racking my brain, trying to think of times I had talked to my family about the Atonement. I was having a tough time coming up with anything.

But as my wife will tell you, I have a horrible memory, so I thought maybe my family would remember some stellar examples of my teaching them about the Atonement that I had forgotten.

Wednesday evening we were all sitting down to dinner. My wife was there, our 12-year old daughter, and two older children who came home from college for Thanksgiving. I told them I had a very important question to ask them; that I had been given the assignment to speak in sacrament meeting about how a father teaches his family about the Atonement; and I wanted to know if they could remember instances of how I had taught them about this important gospel subject.

After an uncomfortable pause, my 20-year old daughter offered, â??Well, you sent us to church every week.â?

She made it sound like I stood in the driveway in my bathrobe waving good-bye to them.

I said, â??I am the worst father in the world.â?

I felt like a total loser.

But as I thought about it some more, something important came to me, â??The Atonement is meant for total losers.â?

Because left to our own devices, all of us come short of the glory of God. Apart from the Atonement, no matter how hard we may try personally, we miss the mark of returning to our Heavenly Father. And you canâ??t lose more totally than that!

II. Understanding the Atonement--Mission Impossible?

As I said, I have spent 30-years trying to understand the Atonement and still havenâ??t succeeded. But let me share with you some thoughts about what I have learned regarding this supremely important subject.

The Atonement is so amazing that it beggars belief; so vast that it defies description.

As Stephen Robinson, BYU religion professor put it, the closer we come to the heart of the gospel manifest in the Atonement of Jesus Christ, the fuzzier our thinking becomes. In order to correct this problem, Stephen Robinson wrote a book about the subject, Believing Christ, which is a wonderful book, dealing with the grace of God as manifest in the Atonement. He then wrote a second book, a sequel, dealing with the other side of the Atonement, that being what we have to do to qualify for the Atonement. Ironically, the second book ended up dismantling pretty much everything he said in the first book.

And this is one of the problems with trying to understand the Atonement on a purely intellectual level. It seems that it cannot be done. And it isnâ??t for want of trying. The most brilliant people on earth have been trying for about 2,000 years and so far have managed only to fail spectacularly.

III. Things you wouldn't understand, things you couldn't understand, and things you shouldn't understand

This is not a recent phenomenon. For example, there are some aspects of the gospel that are not explained in the Book of Mormon. These can be divided into two categories. Mormon tells us that there are some things that Jesus taught the Nephites that he was forbidden to write.

But importantly, there is second category of things that Mormon tells us â??cannotâ? be written. There is something about these teachings that is â??ineffable,â? that defies the ability of language to express them. I think the Atonement is one of these subjects. When we discuss the Atonement, we enter the Holy of Holies, and in approaching so near to God, we encounter beauty and glory inexpressible.

IV. Parables and Models

This is not to say that we cannot intellectually understand and teach many important aspects of the Atonement; that it was accomplished by Jesus of Nazareth, the incarnate Son of the living God; that it was provided freely and out of love; that without the Atonement we would all be doomed forever; that there is no salvation for any of us apart from the Atonement; and that there is no other way to heaven than through the Atonement provided by the Savior.

These are all vital aspects of the Atonement, but they fail to fully explain how the Atonement works to bring about our salvation.

Because mere language is insufficient to express the fullness of the Atonement, inspired people have long attempted to use poetic forms to capture its meaning. Often, parables and models are employed. Such parables include the Prodigal Son, the Good Samaritan, and Boyd K. Packerâ??s more recent parable of the Mediator. All of these parables are important in that they illustrate profound aspects of the Atonement. But at some point, each of these parables breaks down in capturing the Atonement in its totality. None of them is completely satisfactory. Indeed, the fact that multiple parables are employed suggests that none of them is completely satisfactory.

The same can be said of â??modelsâ? of the Atonement. The New Testament is full of different models of the Atonement. There is the model of a gift that is freely and lovingly given that we must receive. There is the model of our being in debt and in debtorâ??s prison and Jesus paying our ransom. There is the model of our being a slave and Jesus setting us free. There is the model of Jesus being a sacrificial substitute to mercifully appease the demands of justice. As with parables, all of these â??modelsâ? illustrate important and profound aspects of the Atonement. But at some point, each of these models breaks down.

This is not just an ancient exercise, but something that continues to this day. I have already mentioned Boyd K. Packerâ??s parable of the Mediator. Some of you may know the works of Cleon Skousen. He is a master scriptorian, and because he, too, felt the various parables and models of the Atonement were insufficient, he spent many, many years, on his personal quest for the meaning of the Atonement. He came up with a new theory, and it is set forth in his paper, A Personal Search for the Meaning of the Atonement, which is also a popular and famous talk on tape.

V. How can we come to understand the Atonement?

Well, with the most brilliant minds spending 2,000 years trying to explain the Atonement and still not succeeding, is it just possible that the Atonement is something that really cannot be expressed in words? But if it canâ??t be expressed in words, does that mean it cannot be understood? I think that the Atonement can be understood, but in order to explain how, I have to talk about two types of learning.

There are many subjects that we learn by reading books or hearing lectures or through personal study; subjects such as math and physics and chemistry.

But there is another group of subjects that absolutely cannot be learned from books and lectures and study; subjects such as dance and singing and martial arts. Let me take dancing as a case in point. I choose dance because, although you might find this hard to believe, I majored in dance in college. I do not mean ballroom dance, but performance dance: Ballet, jazz, modern, tap.

Now, you can go check books out of the library about ballet and you can learn a lot ABOUT ballet from reading those books. But (and this is important) you can memorize every item in every book written about the ballet and you still will not have learned how to dance.

There is only one way to learn how to dance, and that is by dancing.

There are some subjects that we learn with our minds, such as math. There are some subjects that we learn with our bodies, such as ballet. May I suggest that the Atonement is a subject that we learn with our souls? And perhaps that, metaphorically speaking, our souls learn the Atonement through dancing with God?

VI. "Experience is a hard school, but fools will learn in no other"

We can only learn the Atonement experientially. By that I mean it is something that we have to experience personally. Nobody else can experience it for us and then tell us what it is like. That doesnâ??t work. We have to experience it for ourselves; just as the Nephites went forward one by one and felt the prints of the nails of the resurrected Savior, and each individually experienced Him.

The idea of learning through experience is not foreign to the gospel; in fact we find it in the other primary cornerstone of the plan of salvation; in the fall of Adam and Eve. Good and evil was not something that Adam and Eve could learn in a classroom. It was something they had to experience for themselves. â??If they never should have bitter they could not know the sweet.â? (D&C 29:39). As Alma put it, we have to plant the seed so they we can know that the seed is good. (Alma 32:33). As the Lord said to Joseph Smith about his trials, â??Know thou, my son, that all these things shall give the experience, and shall be for thy good.â? (D&C 122:7).

Perhaps the Atonement is like a rainbow in that the more we pursue understanding it with our minds alone, the more it recedes from us.

Perhaps the Atonement is like the sun, which we cannot see by direct observation, yet we can feel its warmth and experience its light.

Perhaps the Atonement is like a bumblebee, that the most brilliant scientific minds in the world cannot explain how it is able to fly . . . and yet it flies. (And here it may be fitting that the emblem of the state of Utah is the beehive; I like to think those are honeybees in that hive.)

Perhaps the Atonement is what Nephi was talking about when he said, â??I do not know the meaning of all things, but I know that God loveth his children.â? (1 Nephi 11:17 paraphrase).

Perhaps the Atonement is one of those things about which Paul said, â??Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.â? (1 Cor. 2:9-10).

And as Adam and Eve had to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge to learn by experience the good from the evil, perhaps we have to partake of that other tree, the tree of life, in order to experience for ourselves the Atonement.

VII. Becoming one with God

It is widely understood in the church that the word â??Atonementâ? literally means at-one-ment. It is the act of becoming one with God.

And so perhaps the Atonement is understood by coming into contact with God; by becoming one with him; by being, as Mormon puts it, â??clasped in the arms of Jesus.â? (Mormon 5:11) As Nephi puts it, â??encircled about eternally in the arms of his love.â? (2 Nephi 1:15) Or as Nephi puts it in his psalm, â??O Lord, wilt thou encircle me around in the robe of they righteousness!â? (2 Nephi 4:33).

VIII. Understanding the Atonement in different ways

I also think it is possible that each of us may experience the Atonement in different ways from each other, and also in different ways at different stages of our life. This is not to say that the Atonement is a thing that changes; but rather we are all different from one another, and we ourselves change throughout our life. If the Atonement occurs when we become one with God, then it may yield different results based upon the differences that we bring to that divine combination.

For example, I am somewhat of an amateur magician. When I was 12, I used to do a magic trick that involved pouring water into several glasses of water. Magically, the clear water changed color when it was poured into the glass. And not only that, but the water turned a different color in each glass.

Of course, this calls to mind Jesusâ?? miraculous changing of water into wine.

I do not know how Jesus performed that miracle, but the explanation in my case was rather simple. Prior to performing the trick, I had placed a small tablet of food coloring in the bottom of each glass, a different color for each glass.

So when I poured the water, it mixed with the different food color tablet in each glass, producing in one a beautiful green, in another a beautiful blue, and in another a beautiful red, and so on.

The water remained the same, as does the Atonement. It was the constant factor in the minor miracle I performed. It was the food color tablet that was different, and perhaps the food color represents the differences we bring to the equation of the Atonement; all of them different, and yet all of them combining with the clear water of the Atonement to produce a wonderful rainbow of color.

Now it seems I am back to my rainbow analogy. But perhaps the Atonement is not the rainbow that we try to catch, but the rainbow that we become; all of us, experiencing the Atonement in different ways, and coming together to form a rainbow of indescribable beauty, with Jesus in our midst. Perhaps this is the â??rainbow connectionâ? a little frog once sang about. Perhaps we are the gospel version of the â??rainbow coalition.â?

IX. Conclusion

And perhaps one of the Atonement analogies Jesus used of himself is apropos here: â??But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.â? (John 4:14).

In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

[Zakuska]

"Rainbow Coalition"

Nice tie in to current event. :thumbs:

I also like "Purple elite"...

[TOmNossor]

There are some subjects that we learn with our minds, such as math. There are some subjects that we learn with our bodies, such as ballet. May I suggest that the Atonement is a subject that we learn with our souls? And perhaps that, metaphorically speaking, our souls learn the Atonement through dancing with God?

I very much enjoyed reading your talk and I think you should try to give it. I am not sure it will be too much too long, but I am a very poor judge of such things.

The part I quoted above was one of my favorites.

Now, I would not recommend that you include Ostlerâ??s Compassionate Theory of the Atonement in your talk; but as partial explanations of the atonement, I think it worth sampling. If you have not read it, you may want too (after Thanksgiving, Sunday talk, and â?¦):

http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006...ent-theory/232/

Charity, TOm

[consiglieri]

I very much enjoyed reading your talk and I think you should try to give it. I am not sure it will be too much too long, but I am a very poor judge of such things.

The part I quoted above was one of my favorites.

Now, I would not recommend that you include Ostlerâ??s Compassionate Theory of the Atonement in your talk; but as partial explanations of the atonement, I think it worth sampling. If you have not read it, you may want too (after Thanksgiving, Sunday talk, and â?¦):

http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006...ent-theory/232/

Charity, TOm

Thanks for the link, TOm.

You know, I think there are some similarities between Ostler's Compassionate Theory of the Atonement and what Cleon Skousen came up in his "A Personal Search for the Meaning of the Atonement."

And thank you for your kind words, as well.

I kind of liked the part about "dancing with God," too. Hugh Nibley mentioned the divine dance in one of his last lectures dealing with the Book of Abraham, I think. And of course, there is the famous episode of Jacob "wrestling" with the Lord.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[LDSToronto]

I have just completed writing out my sacrament talk for this Sunday, dealing with the Atonement of Jesus Christ. It is a talk I will never give because I think I may have exceeded my 10-15 minute allotment by a tad.

I would be more than interested in comments from board members on any part of it.

Consig, take this criticism in the light of making your talk better: I know you probably put a lot into it.

First, I'm struck by the lack of scriptural references. You have a few, you need more. The atonement can be difficult to understand and to explain, in any depth. I've given this talk before, and it went over well because I expanded on scripture.

Second, shorten your intro. It meanders here and there and concludes with 'The atonement is for total losers'. The atonement is for everyone, not just the afflicted. I find when people approach this topic, they do it from the perspective of 'something is wrong with me/you, the atonement will fix it'. It's better to approach it as 'the atonement is for everyone, bad times and good times'.

Finally, don't make jokes. There are talks where it is appropriate. However, there are two times I don't joke when I'm speaking - when I'm assigned the atonement and when I'm assigned something directly related to the Saviour. That's my personal opinion.

Once again, meant to help, not to be hurtful,

H.

[Richard]

I just read it. Although we have two different theologies, I must say I saw a lot of familiarity in your writing. I am not going to start pointing out where we differ as you did not post this for a Catholic to do so. I am really, sincerely not in that type of mood. Your writing moved me, what can I say! I would like to share a few thoughts with you as a brother. Especially the link at the bottom of this page, my Church in Northern Utah and her core (Atonement)

This link below may seem un related at first glance but it is a treasured page for me.

http://utahmission.com/pages/Shame%20of%20the%20Cross.html

Here is another good writing on the atonement

http://www.ewtn.com/faith/Teachings/rdmpb2.htm

As a Catholic I will admit we do get into the suffering Christ, in a way that unites our own struggles, pain to His. It seems the more I focus on the Passion of Christ, the better understanding I receive of His love. Our Liturgical year moves from darkness into light in so many ways, Easter being the culmination. It is good to see another as yourself delving into it. I wonder if you could have chosen a better topic. I would say no.

For me it is the main topic at every Catholic Mass, itâ??s as if everything I know about Jesus takes place at the foot of the cross. Because we have a crucifix in our Churches above the table of our Lord you really cannot escape it. Then of course with the last supper taking place at all Masses in no way are you going to escape the atonement as the center of our lives. Miss it at times yes, escape it no way.

Can you do this? Go here to this page http://utahmission.com/pages/Mass_Explained.html

and read the words of the Mass, I think it will intrigue you, especially after the state of mind you must be in when writhing, when contemplating the Passion of Christ. Did you feel different as you were thinking and writing about it?

When you get to this page the order of the Mass, her words are on the left and down a bit. (the order of the Mass)

God Bless

Rich

www.utahmission.com

[Fly Fisherman]

Second, shorten your intro. It meanders here and there and concludes with 'The atonement is for total losers'. The atonement is for everyone, not just the afflicted. I find when people approach this topic, they do it from the perspective of 'something is wrong with me/you, the atonement will fix it'. It's better to approach it as 'the atonement is for everyone, bad times and good times'.

But isn't the point that we are all "total losers" and "afflicted" regardless whether there are "good times" or "bad times"? Of course, that needs to be explained in an uplifting manner.

[LDSToronto]

But isn't the point that we are all "total losers" and "afflicted" regardless whether there are "good times" or "bad times"? Of course, that needs to be explained in an uplifting manner.

That's a bleak viewpoint made brighter by the atonement. It's not my viewpoint, nor do I interpret any of the scriptures in such a way that I come out feeling as though my default position is 'total loser' or 'afflicted'.

H.

[Zakuska]

I wouldn't say thats the point... We are all children of a King. Kings Children arn't losers. We lost a battle (in the Garden) but we will win the war because of the atonement.

[Fly Fisherman]

That's a bleak viewpoint made brighter by the atonement. It's not my viewpoint, nor do I interpret any of the scriptures in such a way that I come out feeling as though my default position is 'total loser' or 'afflicted'.

H.

There is nothing bleak about admitting our own "afflicted" state. In fact, once understood, in context of the Atonement, it is quite wonderful. The perfectly organized Relief Society President needs the atonement as much as the constant sinner.

Well, King Benjamin in the Book of Mormon says it much better than I could.

Mosiah 4:5 For behold, if the knowledge of the goodness of God at this time has awakened you to a sense of your nothingness, and your worthless and fallen stateâ??

Mosiah 4:11 And again I say unto you as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, or if ye have known of his goodness and have tasted of his love, and have received a remission of your sins, which causeth such exceedingly great joy in your souls, even so I would that ye should remember, and always retain in remembrance, the greatness of God, and your own nothingness, and his goodness and long-suffering towards you, unworthy creatures, and humble yourselves even in the depths of humility, calling on the name of the Lord daily, and standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come, which was spoken by the mouth of the angel.

[rpn]

I loved the talk. But it doesn't teach anything about the Atonement. Why can you just teach that perfection in Christ comes when we are baptized and do our very best to keep the commandments and quickly repent, so that what we need to do are:

1) Quit comparing our selves to everyone else.

2) Quit judging each other (since our personal very best may not be the best of someone else, and if we aren't doing our very best it doesn't make a whole lot of difference that we are better at a lot of things than others might be because the Atonement cannot close the gap in those conditions.

3) As we do our best, our capacity to do our best expands.

4) Identify the differences between what our very best is and what our wishful very best has been so we can work on toward the former

5) Believe that each day and every day we can be perfect in Christ.

[Zakuska]

There is nothing bleak about admitting our own "afflicted" state. In fact, once understood, in context of the Atonement, it is quite wonderful. The perfectly organized Relief Society President needs the atonement as much as the constant sinner.

Well, King Benjamin in the Book of Mormon says it much better than I could.

Mosiah 4:5 For behold, if the knowledge of the goodness of God at this time has awakened you to a sense of your nothingness, and your worthless and fallen stateâ??

Mosiah 4:11 And again I say unto you as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, or if ye have known of his goodness and have tasted of his love, and have received a remission of your sins, which causeth such exceedingly great joy in your souls, even so I would that ye should remember, and always retain in remembrance, the greatness of God, and your own nothingness, and his goodness and long-suffering towards you, unworthy creatures, and humble yourselves even in the depths of humility, calling on the name of the Lord daily, and standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come, which was spoken by the mouth of the angel.

But the probelm there is... thats talking about us now... in our fallen state. We weren't created worthless or fallen. yes there is a balance to be held being humble.

[Maidservant]

I did a detailed skim. Superb. I often wonder how it is that I can show people that the journey we are taking to sanctification is only based on experiential, transformative knowledge (had a whole back-and-forth with Mr. Englund, whom I respect, several months ago on this board), and I thought you did well with the dancing analogy. Another parable that comes to mind is of the Ten Virgins -- it teaches that only YOU can have the experiences you do that allow you to enter the marriage to the Lamb and to celebrate.

[Zechariah]

I have just completed writing out my sacrament talk for this Sunday, dealing with the Atonement of Jesus Christ. It is a talk I will never give because I think I may have exceeded my 10-15 minute allotment by a tad.

I would be more than interested in comments from board members on any part of it.

All the Best!

And a Happy Thanksgiving!

--Consiglieri

Well, I don't know that we've ever had a conversation before, and I really hesitate to comment here for a couple of reasons. #1. I know how sensitive we can sometimes be when a piece of work we've put our efforts into is critiqued by others. No matter the comment, if it sounds even slightly negative, it can sometimes feel like a violent attack inflicting gaping wounds, instead of a tiny paper cut. But then, even the smallest, most invisible, of paper cuts, can be very unpleasant and painful, and I guess that's my point. #2. You have been given this assignment, and it is your stewardship, so you have the responsibility and privilege of preparing what you are going to present, which is not one belonging to anyone here. Having said that, though, I will now take the plunge and comment.

First, I would like to say that I very much appreciated reading what you've written, and greatly enjoyed your obvious talent for writing. If you have a similar talent in expressing yourself when it comes to speaking, then you have the good fortune of having an advantage, over many, in an ability to capture a congregation's attention when you address them. So, for this reason, in particular, I am responding, and would concur with some of the sentiments that have been expressed regarding the importance of seriousness, as well as scripture, as per this topic, as this could be one of the most important messages you will ever be called on to give.

Now, I noted that you included 9 scripture verses or references. Nine is a good number I think, and, in my opinion, not too few in a 10-15 minute talk. But there is such an abundance of scripture that speaks to the topic of the Atonement, that I would encourage utilizing more of it. Within the Topical Guide, which has several categories listed under the Atonement, as well as the Guide to the Scriptures, the Bible Dictionary, and the Index, there are literally hundreds of verses and passages to be found under Atonement. However, after going and reading over those lists, I found that only a portion of one verse, from any of them, was contained in your talk. That would be from 2 Nephi 1:15, which is beautiful, indeed, but, surely, with such plenty, a talk on the Atonement could include far more.

You have the opportunity, with this one talk, to increase your hearer's understanding, and their desire to understand, the single most necessary, beautiful, and profound of doctrines, and to inspire them to seek, and allow, it to be personally efficacious in their lives. That is wonderful and heavy, at the same time. So, if you have sought the Spirit's guidance in your preparations, to provide the message the Lord would have you give, I don't know how comfortable I find going behind you and commenting on what you've prepared, as the most important injunction we've been given is to teach and speak by the Spirit.

But, since you asked, and if you were my brother, son, or friend, who had asked, I would suggest taking your favorite points from what you've written and keeping those, and searching the scriptures that teach of the Atonement, and incorporating more of those into your talk, and tell how they have benefited your understanding, or how you wish they had earlier in your life in teaching your children, and such. I suspect that you can do a fine job coming from the perspective you already have, while doing more to actually teach of the Atoning sacrifice of our Savior, at the same time.

[LDSToronto]

There is nothing bleak about admitting our own "afflicted" state. In fact, once understood, in context of the Atonement, it is quite wonderful. The perfectly organized Relief Society President needs the atonement as much as the constant sinner.

Well, King Benjamin in the Book of Mormon says it much better than I could.

Mosiah 4:5 For behold, if the knowledge of the goodness of God at this time has awakened you to a sense of your nothingness, and your worthless and fallen stateâ??

Mosiah 4:11 And again I say unto you as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, or if ye have known of his goodness and have tasted of his love, and have received a remission of your sins, which causeth such exceedingly great joy in your souls, even so I would that ye should remember, and always retain in remembrance, the greatness of God, and your own nothingness, and his goodness and long-suffering towards you, unworthy creatures, and humble yourselves even in the depths of humility, calling on the name of the Lord daily, and standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come, which was spoken by the mouth of the angel.

Perhaps it's the imprecision in the language, or maybe it's my pedantic nature coming through, but I don't think that this scripture states we are afflicted or that we are 'losers'. Rather, it places us properly relative to God and describes the relationship we have with Him. 'Unworthy' because God is not in debt to us, and owes us nothing. 'Nothingness' because of the infinite greatness of God, and our finite mortal state does not match him in comparison.

That's not to say that we don't experience afflictions. Whether this is the natural state of human beings, I'm uncertain.

H.

[changed]

I loved it, wha a wonderful study for Christmas.

I wanted to know if they could remember instances of how I had taught them about this important gospel subject.....

Did you send this to them? Spend an evening with them, bear your testimony to them.

Some of you may know the works of Cleon Skousen. He is a master scriptorian, and because he, too, felt the various parables and models of the Atonement were insufficient, he spent many, many years, on his personal quest for the meaning of the Atonement. He came up with a new theory, and it is set forth in his paper, A Personal Search for the Meaning of the Atonement, which is also a popular and famous talk on tape.

I did not buyt the talk, but is this a good transcript of it?

read under "Cronk"

http://rcronk.wordpress.com/2007/07/27/a-p...nement/#more-20

starting with:

Iâ??ve always been puzzled, as a boy, by the Easter story. I used to sit there in Sunday School, in Raymond, Alberta, Canada, and I used to sit there and theyâ??d tell me how Jesus suffered on the cross and Iâ??d, that just left a lot of questions in my mind....

Anyways, thanks for sharing. I was looking for something like that to read tonight.

[Fly Fisherman]

Perhaps it's the imprecision in the language, or maybe it's my pedantic nature coming through, but I don't think that this scripture states we are afflicted or that we are 'losers'. Rather, it places us properly relative to God and describes the relationship we have with Him. 'Unworthy' because God is not in debt to us, and owes us nothing. 'Nothingness' because of the infinite greatness of God, and our finite mortal state does not match him in comparison.

That's not to say that we don't experience afflictions. Whether this is the natural state of human beings, I'm uncertain.

H.

Yes I agree. And I can mention what those scriptures have meant to me. I loved math when I studied it in college. I was always struck by the principle that a finite number divided by infinity is always 0, no matter how large the finite number is. Since division is a comparison (of two numbers), then if I were to even try to compare myself to the Savior and his infinite atonement, the answer is always zero, or nothing. But all my works, or all the works of anybody, even the best people of the earth are always finite, and since the Savior performed an infinite atonement, then we are always nothing without him. The "nothing", of course, is not referring to our worth to Him, but of our own ability to save or exalt ourselves. So, for me, the extra-organized Stake President or Relief Society president is, by these scriptures, "nothing" without God, which means that really, nobody is "better" than anybody else without the Savior. His infinite atonement squashes the "finite value" of our works, no matter how good we are. Now, that is not to say that our works are useless, but to me the Savior doesn't need my works to save me - I need works and obedience to "merit" His blessings - that, and that he has required my obedience. So, therefore, I am no better than the "total loser" since my finite works, even if they exceed those of the "total loser" are "nothing" compared to the Savior.

[LDSToronto]

Yes I agree. And I can mention what those scriptures have meant to me. I loved math when I studied it in college. I was always struck by the principle that a finite number divided by infinity is always 0, no matter how large the finite number is. Since division is a comparison (of two numbers), then if I were to even try to compare myself to the Savior and his infinite atonement, the answer is always zero, or nothing. But all my works, or all the works of anybody, even the best people of the earth are always finite, and since the Savior performed an infinite atonement, then we are always nothing without him. The "nothing", of course, is not referring to our worth to Him, but of our own ability to save or exalt ourselves. So, for me, the extra-organized Stake President or Relief Society president is, by these scriptures, "nothing" without God, which means that really, nobody is "better" than anybody else without the Savior. His infinite atonement squashes the "finite value" of our works, no matter how good we are. Now, that is not to say that our works are useless, but to me the Savior doesn't need my works to save me - I need works and obedience to "merit" His blessings - that, and that he has required my obedience. So, therefore, I am no better than the "total loser" since my finite works, even if they exceed those of the "total loser" are "nothing" compared to the Savior.

Thanks for the metaphor - it's a really nice way to think about this scripture and to ponder ourselves in relation to God.

This scripture always reminds me of The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy series and the part where Zaphod Beeblebrox is subjected to the Total Perspective Vortex. The TPV is a machine that shows you the infinite enormity of the universe and your own infinitesimal nothingness in proportion, the result of which is a soul-destroying realization that you truly are nothing. It's powered by fairy cake. Zaphod survives the machine unscathed, but I won't tell you how in case you have committed the unpardonable sin of not reading the series and need to repent by racing to the library/bookstore with all haste.

H.

[Risingtide]

Think it would be more helpful for those attending your talk to hear more of what you believe the Atonement is and less of your frustration in trying to comprehend it in it's entirety. I suggest more spirituality and less intellectual angst.

All the best

[Ulysses]

Think it would be more helpful for those attending your talk to hear more of what you believe the Atonement is and less of your frustration in trying to comprehend it in it's entirety. I suggest more spirituality and less intellectual angst.

All the best

I probably wouldn't agree with Risingtide about much--but I think he's got a point here. Your piece does seem a bit pretentious ("intellectual angst"--well put). You seem to think what Scripture reveals is not enough--that Christ died in our place, for our sin. A "propitiation"--to be received by faith (Romans 3:25). And "a ransom for many" (Matthew 20:28, Mark 10:45).

You appear to want something bigger. To what end, Consiglieri?

[LDSToronto]

I probably wouldn't agree with Risingtide about much--but I think he's got a point here. Your piece does seem a bit pretentious ("intellectual angst"--well put). You seem to think what Scripture reveals is not enough--that Christ died in our place, for our sin. A "propitiation"--to be received by faith (Romans 3:25). And "a ransom for many" (Matthew 20:28, Mark 10:45).

You appear to want something bigger. To what end, Consiglieri?

Take it easy on Consig. This isn't an essay, rather, it's a talk he has to deliver. While I don't doubt the veracity of what you say, your tone betrays the appearance of good intent. Let's not give Consig a complex prior to delivering his talk.

H.

[ERMD]

For those rendering their criticisms, may I request that you provide us with an essay about how you would explain the atonement to your children or to a congregation? It will need to take 10-15 minutes to present.

Thanks for your participation.

[LDSToronto]

For those rendering their criticisms, may I request that you provide us with an essay about how you would explain the atonement to your children or to a congregation? It will need to take 10-15 minutes to present.

Thanks for your participation.

You may request it, though doubtful you'll receive it because that's not what Consig requested. What he did (bravely) ask for is critique:

I would be more than interested in comments from board members on any part of it.

H.

[Mudcat]

I have just completed writing out my sacrament talk for this Sunday, dealing with the Atonement of Jesus Christ. It is a talk I will never give because I think I may have exceeded my 10-15 minute allotment by a tad.

I would be more than interested in comments from board members on any part of it.

All the Best!

And a Happy Thanksgiving!

--Consiglieri

______________

UNDERSTANDING THE ATONEMENT

I. Introduction

I was asked to speak for 10-15 minutes on the subject of the Atonement. My first thought was, “Heck, I’ve spent 30-years trying to understand the Atonement and still haven’t succeeded.” And besides, who can explain the Atonement in 10-15 minutes, anyway?

Then I was told I might want to focus my comments on how a father teaches his family about the Atonement. That was when I knew I could talk on that subject for even less than 10 minutes. I started racking my brain, trying to think of times I had talked to my family about the Atonement. I was having a tough time coming up with anything.

But as my wife will tell you, I have a horrible memory, so I thought maybe my family would remember some stellar examples of my teaching them about the Atonement that I had forgotten.

Wednesday evening we were all sitting down to dinner. My wife was there, our 12-year old daughter, and two older children who came home from college for Thanksgiving. I told them I had a very important question to ask them; that I had been given the assignment to speak in sacrament meeting about how a father teaches his family about the Atonement; and I wanted to know if they could remember instances of how I had taught them about this important gospel subject.

After an uncomfortable pause, my 20-year old daughter offered, “Well, you sent us to church every week.”

She made it sound like I stood in the driveway in my bathrobe waving good-bye to them.

I said, “I am the worst father in the world.”

I felt like a total loser.

But as I thought about it some more, something important came to me, “The Atonement is meant for total losers.”

Because left to our own devices, all of us come short of the glory of God. Apart from the Atonement, no matter how hard we may try personally, we miss the mark of returning to our Heavenly Father. And you can’t lose more totally than that!

Hi Consig,

I read the talk and to be quite honest, I rather enjoyed it. It's your talk, of what you felt led to say and I appreciate you saying it....if not there, then at least here.

I don't doubt you could trim a bit here and there and make it fit the time constraints.

I will say, I agree that Christ's atonement for us was because we were total losers. I might also bring up somewhere in there that perhaps he saw in us, something greater than what we are. Much like the Ballet Master sees the potential in a good frame, positive attitude, motivation and athletic ability in an inept. Like clay he models us all for a time we are ready for the Grand Pas De Duex. The thing is, as I see it, we are all street kids, regardless of any potential we might have, we couldn't afford the first lesson. In fact, no one could pay for our lessons. The price to be in the Masters school is more than anyone could afford. Yet, this perfect Ballet Master, has paid our lessons in full. All we have to do to make Company is to show up and do our best to follow his instructions.

I doubt many would really grip into a ballet analogy, given my wife's vocation, I rather enjoyed yours.

Though I must say, I have a natural distrust for men in tights..... Sue me (just kidding, don't get any ideas).

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[Garden Girl]

All right, consig... How did your talk go? Was it close to the one here?

GG