Joseph Dictated The Book Of Mormon On The Fly?

[John Williams]

Hmmm... don't know that I can agree with this.

Do you think a college freshman could write something similar to the Book of Mormon in a short period of time - let's say - 6 months?

I'd say it's highly unlikely.

Think of it this way: from inception (1823) to final draft (1829), you have six years. Is that enough time for an intelligent person to have written a book like the Book of Mormon?

[cdowis]

Think of it this way: from inception (1823) to final draft (1829), you have six years. Is that enough time for an intelligent person to have written a book like the Book of Mormon?

Perhaps if he had a government grant or scholarship, but not as a subsistence farmer who worked day and night just to survive.

I think you are talking ivory tower, not someone who actually works for a living.

And whaat about his education? Who physically wrote the BOM during this time period....... Joseph Smith, the scholar, the writer, the person who went to the library to research all the stuff we have been talking about for all these years?

And he later **read** this manuscript for dictation to a scribe..... from a hat?

I think JS's account of an angel is more likely than the scenario you are suggesting.

[John Williams]

Perhaps if he had a government grant or scholarship, but not as a subsistence farmer who worked day and night just to survive.

You really think he couldn't have done it in six years? Really? I wrote a book in 5 weeks, writing only late at night. With six years, the Book of Mormon is quite possible.

I think you are talking ivory tower, not someone who actually works for a living.

Obviously we disagree.

And whaat about his education? Who physically wrote the BOM during this time period....... Joseph Smith, the scholar, the writer, the person who went to the library to research all the stuff we have been talking about for all these years?

No scholarship was necessary. The idea that a library full of information was needed to write the book is nothing more than an apologist argument.

And he later **read** this manuscript for dictation to a scribe..... from a hat?

I've never believed he read it from a hat. That's a classic misdirection.

I think JS's account of an angel is more likely than the scenario you are suggesting.

An angel visiting is more likely than a moderately intelligent person writing a book in his non-working time over six years? Seriously?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Think of it this way: from inception (1823) to final draft (1829), you have six years. Is that enough time for an intelligent person to have written a book like the Book of Mormon?

If that is all he did with his time...even with today's Word programs it can take years to write a book well. We are talking about the Paper and pencil era, and all the mobbings that were going on and the 6 months trips across the eastern US. The building of a new Church, the prison stays, etc, etc. etc.

[John Williams]

If that is all he did with his time...even with today's Word programs it can take years to write a book well. We are talking about the Paper and pencil era, and all the mobbings that were going on and the 6 months trips across the eastern US. The building of a new Church, the prison stays, etc, etc. etc.

Sure, pen and paper slows you down, but six years is still plenty of time. And, unless I'm mistaken, there were no mobbings, 6-month trips across the eastern US, church building, or prison stays during the time he was writing.

Given the possibilities, an intelligent person such as Joseph Smith producing a book over six years is still the most plausible and likely explanation.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Sure, pen and paper slows you down, but six years is still plenty of time. And, unless I'm mistaken, there were no mobbings, 6-month trips across the eastern US, church building, or prison stays during the time he was writing.

Given the possibilities, an intelligent person such as Joseph Smith producing a book over six years is still the most plausible and likely explanation.

Plausible yes...but many of his woes began at 14 and continued on. In those days you worked sun to sun down...I just don't see the time needed, but I may be underestimating his intelligence.

[Scottie]

Plausible yes...but many of his woes began at 14 and continued on. In those days you worked sun to sun down...I just don't see the time needed, but I may be underestimating his intelligence.

Really? So when, exactly, did JS have time to dictate the BoM the way you are suggesting??

[John Williams]

Plausible yes...but many of his woes began at 14 and continued on. In those days you worked sun to sun down...I just don't see the time needed, but I may be underestimating his intelligence.

By my reckoning, if he spent an average of just 30 minutes a day during that time, he would have written at a rate of approximately half a page an hour. That's certainly doable. When I wrote my book, I averaged 2 pages an hour, a rate 4 times faster than Joseph Smith's possible rate. Adjusting for my use of a computer would maybe halve that rate, but then I didn't quote extensively from outside sources, as Joseph did. And of course, we know that the last several months he was writing full-time, so presuming that he had at least a rough draft ready by that time, it's not unreasonable to believe he could have written it all in that time period.

[cdowis]

You really think he couldn't have done it in six years? Really? I wrote a book in 5 weeks, writing only late at night. With six years, the Book of Mormon is quite possible.

Let's see. You are the son of a subsistence farmer, and you come home exhausted. The only source of income is farming and selling refreshments, and you mother takes in washing.

Your bedroom is full of kids, and you have no privacy. You are writing in the light of a candle, with expensive parchment and a quill pen. You have a third grade education.

Now tell us about your "five weeks" ==>> Let's compare.

[John Larsen]

Let's see. You are the son of a subsistence farmer, and you come home exhausted. Your bedroom is full of kids, and you have no privacy. You are writing in the light of a candle, with expensive parchment and a quill pen. You have a third grade education.

Now tell us about your "five weeks". Let's compare.

You are representing the Smith's as if all they did was farm, but this was not the case. They ran the beer and cakes shop in town. By Joseph's own account he had plenty of time to attend camp meetings and visit multiple denominations regularly. Joseph also had time to join the debating society in town. Additionally, some of the same town people that Rommelator relied upon to confirm Joseph's youthful ignorance also described the Smith's as lazy and suggested they did not devote as much time to farming as they should. Although this accusation is likely an exaggeration, it points to the fact that there might have been time available. Also, even subsistence farmers don't have as much to do in the winter time.

[John Williams]

Let's see. You are the son of a subsistence farmer, and you come home exhausted. Your bedroom is full of kids, and you have no privacy. You are writing in the light of a candle, with expensive parchment and a quill pen. You have a third grade education.

Now tell us about your "five weeks". Let's compare.

Let's see. You come home exhausted during spring, summer and fall, generally (at least judging by my family's farming experience). Winter is a less-hectic time of doing tool repair and caring for animals. There's definitely more than 30 minutes a day that could be set aside for writing (probably with a pencil and paper, not necessarily a quill pen and expensive parchment).

Why do we suppose he wrote it in his bedroom? Why does he need privacy from kids? Why assume it was always done at night by candlelight?

For comparison, I wrote 2-3 hours a night, 4-5 nights a week, in my family room with six kids milling about. I had no privacy and a lot of distractions. But you're right. I had better lighting and a computer.

What I didn't have was at least six months of full-time writing, as Joseph did. I didn't have assistants to help me. I didn't have financial support from anyone. I just wrote.

All I'm saying is that a 588-page book (that's how many pages were in the original edition) over six years is not all that difficult to believe. Fewer than 100 pages a year is not implausible.

[Jason]

Whether he had time to steal away from his family and write a manuscript every day for six years (and memorize it as well, so he could dictate it without flaw when "translating" it) is irrelevent if he did not have the ability. The hebraisms and refrences to authentic ancient customs, and placenames unknown in Joseph's time are huge coincidences if the book is not really a work of revelation. Joseph needs to not only have been incredibly talented, but also incredibly lucky to have made the right guesses when he had no way of knowing what future scholarship would uncover.

[cinepro]

There's a good timeline for the Book of Mormon translation here:

http://www.eldenwatson.net/BoM.htm

He estimates the rate of translation thusly:

Various approximations have been made of the rate of translation of the book of Mormon. Estimates of around 7 to 7.5 pages per day are the most common. I have excluded the translation of the book of Mosiah from the portion of the plates which were assumed translated by Joseph Smith with Oliver Cowdery as scribe, as it appears likely to me that Mosiah had already been translated before Oliver's arrival. This reduces the volume of material which was translated during the approximately 80 day period of translation, and reasonably reduces the translation rate to approximately 6.5 pages per day.

Also, I'm not aware that Joseph was terribly burdened with farming or other chores during most of the translation process. Certainly, he had other stuff to do, but I don't think he was fully supporting his wife through farming, and they didn't have any kids. In Harmony, he was living with his in-laws, and then later he lived with the Whitmers. He also received support and provisions from the Knight family and others.

It's already been mentioned that inscribing a record onto metal plates caries many of the same difficulties as direct dictation. For those that believe the Book of Mormon was edited and prepared by Mormon and Moroni, do you believe they had created rough drafts of their record on other plates, or paper, before creating the final draft? Or did they write it out in one shot, and if so, is it any less incredible that they were able to preserve (or introduce) Hebraic poetic structures almost 1,000 years after Lehi left Jerusalem, writing in Reformed Egyptian and not Hebrew?

[cdowis]

Thank you all for correcting me. I have a good dose of humility.

[Jason]

I think it's a good possibility that Mormon and Moroni did in fact prepare "rough drafts" before engraving the plates.

Much of what they wrote is also apparently directly quoted from earlier sources - most obviously from letters.

[Gervin]

All I'm saying is that a 588-page book (that's how many pages were in the original edition) over six years is not all that difficult to believe. Fewer than 100 pages a year is not implausible.

It also doesn't hurt if whole chapters were already written:

The Book of Mormon quotes whole chapters of Isaiah, with some variations. Here is a list of corresponding chapters.

1 Nephi 20 . . . . . Isaiah 48

1 Nephi 21 . . . . . Isaiah 49

2 Nephi 6 . . . . . . Isaiah 49:22-26

2 Nephi 7 . . . . . . Isaiah 50

2 Nephi 8 . . . . . . Isaiah 51

2 Nephi 12 . . . . . Isaiah 2

2 Nephi 13 . . . . . Isaiah 3

2 Nephi 14 . . . . . Isaiah 4

2 Nephi 15 . . . . . Isaiah 5

2 Nephi 16 . . . . . Isaiah 6

2 Nephi 17 . . . . . Isaiah 7

2 Nephi 18 . . . . . Isaiah 8

2 Nephi 19 . . . . . Isaiah 9

2 Nephi 20 . . . . . Isaiah 10

2 Nephi 21 . . . . . Isaiah 11

2 Nephi 22 . . . . . Isaiah 12

2 Nephi 23 . . . . . Isaiah 13

2 Nephi 24 . . . . . Isaiah 14

2 Nephi 27 . . . . . Isaiah 29:6-24

2 Nephi 30 . . . . . Isaiah 11:4-9

Mosiah 12 . . . . . Isaiah 52:7-10

Mosiah 14 . . . . . Isaiah 53

3 Nephi 20 . . . . . Isaiah 52

3 Nephi 22 . . . . . Isaiah 54

Bible & The Book of Mormon

[JDave]

No scholarship was necessary. The idea that a library full of information was needed to write the book is nothing more than an apologist argument.

I always thought that was a critic's argument.

... but then I didn't quote extensively from outside sources, as Joseph did.

Like that.

[ttribe]

Let's see. You come home exhausted during spring, summer and fall, generally (at least judging by my family's farming experience). Winter is a less-hectic time of doing tool repair and caring for animals. There's definitely more than 30 minutes a day that could be set aside for writing (probably with a pencil and paper, not necessarily a quill pen and expensive parchment).

Why do we suppose he wrote it in his bedroom? Why does he need privacy from kids? Why assume it was always done at night by candlelight?

For comparison, I wrote 2-3 hours a night, 4-5 nights a week, in my family room with six kids milling about. I had no privacy and a lot of distractions. But you're right. I had better lighting and a computer.

What I didn't have was at least six months of full-time writing, as Joseph did. I didn't have assistants to help me. I didn't have financial support from anyone. I just wrote.

All I'm saying is that a 588-page book (that's how many pages were in the original edition) over six years is not all that difficult to believe. Fewer than 100 pages a year is not implausible.

And yet, interestingly enough, not a single one of his family members has gone on record of him doing what you are speculating he could have done.

[John Larsen]

And yet, interestingly enough, not a single one of his family members has gone on record of him doing what you are speculating he could have done.

Nor did they contradict it. Amazing little was written about the translation process. As has been pointed out by leading apologists, the process by which Joseph wrote the Book of Mormon is largely a mystery.

[T-Shirt]

Nor did they contradict it. Amazing little was written about the translation process. As has been pointed out by leading apologists, the process by which Joseph wrote the Book of Mormon is largely a mystery.

Yet, what has been written, completely contradicts your theory.

Best,

T-Shirt

[John Williams]

I always thought that was a critic's argument.

Like that.

"Outside sources" as in the Bible. That's really all he needed, IMO. There is nothing in the BOM that would require an author to know anything about the Middle East other than what's in the Bible.

[JDave]

"Outside sources" as in the Bible. That's really all he needed, IMO. There is nothing in the BOM that would require an author to know anything about the Middle East other than what's in the Bible.

Thanks for the clarification.

I understand the argument that Joseph was a prodigy, a nearly unbelievable brilliant man who wrote a self-consistent narrative with doctrine, wars, visions, etc. that describes several civilizations and timeframes -- also managing to maintain a consistency with the Bible necessary to claim that it actually supports the Bible.

But how do people explain the weird guesses he made that were only shown to be correct years after he died? I realize that some of his weird guesses are still unproven, but how could he have gotten any of them right?

[John Williams]

Thanks for the clarification.

I understand the argument that Joseph was a prodigy, a nearly unbelievable brilliant man who wrote a self-consistent narrative with doctrine, wars, visions, etc. that describes several civilizations and timeframes -- also managing to maintain a consistency with the Bible necessary to claim that it actually supports the Bible.

Who is making this argument? I for one don't believe that he was a prodigy or unbelievably brilliant. 6 or 7 years is plenty of time to write something consistent with the Bible and consistent with Mound Builder mythology but inconsistent with ancient America. My book is self-consistent in narrative, and I wrote in 5 weeks. Am I a genius?

But how do people explain the weird guesses he made that were only shown to be correct years after he died? I realize that some of his weird guesses are still unproven, but how could he have gotten any of them right?

The propensity of people to believe that he got "weird guesses" right seems to be directly correlated with people's testimonies.

[Jason]

Who is making this argument? I for one don't believe that he was a prodigy or unbelievably brilliant. 6 or 7 years is plenty of time to write something consistent with the Bible and consistent with Mound Builder mythology but inconsistent with ancient America. My book is self-consistent in narrative, and I wrote in 5 weeks. Am I a genius?

If you're going to keep claiming that your book is the rough equivelent of the Book of Mormon perhaps we should at least know the title and publisher?

[cdowis]

"Outside sources" as in the Bible. That's really all he needed, IMO. There is nothing in the BOM that would require an author to know anything about the Middle East other than what's in the Bible.

Really, I guess you have not read any of our posts in this forum.

NHM, Paanchi and Pahron, sheum come to mind. Perhaps you can give us those references in the Bible.