Pet Peeve On Moses 1:39

[consiglieri]

Okay, I know this is petty, so let's get that out of the way, first.

I suspect everybody on this board can quote Moses 1:39, which is perhaps the most quoted scripture in all Mormondom, averring that it is God's work and glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

I think it is beautiful and inspiring.

My peeve comes with what seems to always be said after it is quoted.

I don't know. Maybe I'm in the minority on this, but it seems Mormons are constitutionally incapable of quoting this scripture without appending a time worn mini-sermon to it.

(I was going to include the obligatory mini-sermon in the OP, but then I thought it might be a better test of how widespread this phenomenon is to allow other posters a chance to weigh in.)

Note: I am also aware this is a small thing, but it has come up at list a million times since I joined the Church and it was done again last Sunday in Priesthood. (And I would be willing to bet it will be said at least once in Conference!)

Any takers?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

Okay, I know this is petty, so let's get that out of the way, first.

I suspect everybody on this board can quote Moses 1:39, which is perhaps the most quoted scripture in all Mormondom, averring that it is God's work and glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

I think it is beautiful and inspiring.

My peeve comes with what seems to always be said after it is quoted.

I don't know. Maybe I'm in the minority on this, but it seems Mormons are constitutionally incapable of quoting this scripture without appending a time worn mini-sermon to it.

(I was going to include the obligatory mini-sermon in the OP, but then I thought it might be a better test of how widespread this phenomenon is to allow other posters a chance to weigh in.)

Note: I am also aware this is a small thing, but it has come up at list a million times since I joined the Church and it was done again last Sunday in Priesthood. (And I would be willing to bet it will be said at least once in Conference!)

Any takers?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

People always say (and even pray!) that we can join with God in "bringing about the immortality and eternal life of man." I personally find that horrendous and blasphemous. We can't do anything about immortality, and, ultimately, we can't do anything to bring about any individual's eternal life either. We can lead them to Christ, but only they and Christ can bring it about.

[urroner]

People always say (and even pray!) that we can join with God in "bringing about the immortality and eternal life of man." I personally find that horrendous and blasphemous. We can't do anything about immortality, and, ultimately, we can't do anything to bring about any individual's eternal life either. We can lead them to Christ, but only they and Christ can bring it about.

Isn't leading them to Christ joining with God in His work? It might not be much, but just think of butterfly wings and hurricanes.

[Obiwan]

Frankly, I'm not getting your point....? What's wrong with any sort of "sermon" after the mention of any scripture? Seems like it's done for every scripture.

Why don't you give an example.

[CMZ]

Yes, bringing people to Christ is joining in a small way in God's work and glory.

My guess as to the mini-sermon is: "God's work is to bring to pass the immortality of man, and his glory is to bring to pass the eternal life of man." Is that what you're getting at, Sig?

[Garden Girl]

Frankly, I'm not getting your point....? What's wrong with any sort of "sermon" after the mention of any scripture? Seems like it's done for every scripture.

Yeah...

GG

[SolarPowered]

I don't seem to hear the "obligatory mini-sermon" in my head after that verse. I cant' even think of what you might be referring to. Perhaps it's a local thing in your area?

[Cold Steel]

I also don't get your point. Moses 1:39 is the ultimate mission statement of God. It defines what God is and what gods are involved in.

We Latter-day Saints are among the very few Christians who acknowledge that we're going through a process, one that has a purpose. God didn't create the world on a whim, He was bringing it into being for a divine purpose. It's something He's done many, many times. The first man is always called Adam, there's always a fall and there's always a redemption. Isn't this what we learn in the temple?

When men become joint heirs with Christ and coinheritors, they become like Christ who becomes like the Father. It's one of the greatest arguments for the Father having a glorified body of flesh and bones. It also implicitly implies the oneness of God and the fact that we can join in that oneness.

If we can join that oneness, as Joseph Smith and the scriptures state, then what will our work and our glory be? So unless I'm missing something, I'm not sure what sermon that could follow might be objectionable.

[Zechariah]

I tried, but I can't think of anything that seems to always follow.

[Jason]

Explaining the difference between "immortality" and "eternal life"?

[BCSpace]

Sorry. Can't think of this "mini sermon". Perhaps when you quote it, we will all go "Ohhhhhhh......".

We can't do anything about immortality, and, ultimately, we can't do anything to bring about any individual's eternal life either. We can lead them to Christ, but only they and Christ can bring it about.

Saviors on mount Zion? Judge angels? etc. etc.

[CMZ]

Consiglieri has left the thread.

[RubyHunter]

I started reading and I was all like... Ooh, this is fun.

Then there wasn't anything substantial.

Kinda.... unfulfilling.

Darn you Consiglieri..... Darn you and your half baked spiritual twinkies that somehow had the creamy filling left out so all we are left with is half baked twinkie soup with no filling.

[consiglieri]

Explaining the difference between "immortality" and "eternal life"?

Bingo!

Give the man a prize!

[consiglieri]

Okay, let me try to analyze my feelings a little more deeply in this regard. I am a guy so this is not easy for me.

I am aware that there are scriptures that speak of eternal life as being that kind of life that God enjoys, and is defined in the D&C as sort of a code name for exaltation.

I know it is important for Mormons to distinguish between "immortality" which they take to be living forever, which comes to all mankind as a free gift through the resurrection of the Savior; and "eternal life" which is made available through the Atonement through all who "qualify themselves" to receive that blessing.

I think my issue is that none of this is present in Moses 1:39.

Whatever it is that Moses is trying to say here, and I think he is saying a lot, it appears to be not that.

So when people read that scripture and then tack on the obligatory mini-sermon about the difference between "immortality" and "eternal life," something inside me says that they are drawing attention away from what the passage is trying to communicate, and taking the focus back to what is understood and accepted Mormon Doctrine.

Is that a bad thing? Maybe not, but I sort of think it is.

As long as we do a knee-jerk Mormon Doctrine homily on this passage of scripture about an issue it is not addressing, I think it less likely we will ever approach the passage on its own terms to try to find out what the author actually meant.

There. That's about as good as I can put it.

As I said in the OP, I know that this may sound petty, but I think part of my feelings stem from my perception that this attitude toward the scriptures is not limited to this verse.

It's just that this verse is such a good example of the phenomenon, based on my experience.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Bingo!

Give the man a prize!

I dont know that I have always explained the diffrence after saying this scripture. So it seemd kinda wierd to me. Oh well.

[bluebell]

As long as we do a knee-jerk Mormon Doctrine homily on this passage of scripture about an issue it is not addressing, I think it less likely we will ever approach the passage on its own terms to try to find out what the author actually meant.

So what is this verse addressing that most mormon people are not getting? What did moses actually mean?

[ERMD]

It hasn't been my experience that Moses 1:39 has been followed by that particular mini-sermon.

[emeliza]

I don't think I ever thought twice about it. Sorry. And I do think it is important to explain the difference in our thoughts on immortality and eternal life, even if they aren't in the scripture themselves.

[Jason]

I know it is important for Mormons to distinguish between "immortality" which they take to be living forever, which comes to all mankind as a free gift through the resurrection of the Savior; and "eternal life" which is made available through the Atonement through all who "qualify themselves" to receive that blessing.

I think my issue is that none of this is present in Moses 1:39.

I think the point of the "mini-sermon" is that the distinction is in fact present in Moses 1:39. It would be redundent to say "immortality and eternal life" if there were no difference between the two conditions.

As long as we do a knee-jerk Mormon Doctrine homily on this passage of scripture about an issue it is not addressing, I think it less likely we will ever approach the passage on its own terms to try to find out what the author actually meant.

I don't think that it's a problem. Sure, the scripture isn't really about the difference between eternal life and immortality, but it is obviously aware that there is a distinction between the two.

Also, I don't think the mini-sermon is really obligatory. I've heard the scripture quoted many times without the person reading it then pausing to point out the difference.

[Lightbearer]

It never ceases to amaze me how much a supposed "faithful member" of the Church is annoyed by the "knee-jerk Mormon Doctrine homily" that other faithful members may or may not be guilty of. I think it also instructive how you word:"it is important for Mormons to distinguish between "immortality" which they take to be living forever, which comes to all mankind as a free gift through the resurrection of the Savior; and "eternal life" which is made available through the Atonement through all who "qualify themselves" to receive that blessing." You make this statement as if you are not one of "those Mormons"... "they" and "themselves" tend to place you "above the fray" of those "unwashed masses" you seem to distain. But nevertheless I will give "my take" on the Moses 1:39 passage. I quote the following:

(Moses 1:35-42) "But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them. And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content. And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine. And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words. For behold, this is my work and my gloryâ??to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. And now, Moses, my son, I will speak unto thee concerning this earth upon which thou standest; and thou shalt write the things which I shall speak. And in a day when the children of men shall esteem my words as naught and take many of them from the book which thou shalt write, behold, I will raise up another like unto thee; and they shall be had again among the children of menâ??among as many as shall believe. (These words were spoken unto Moses in the mount, the name of which shall not be known among the children of men. And now they are spoken unto you. Show them not unto any except them that believe. Even so. Amen.)"

I quoted the passage I believe in context and it seems to be teaching Moses the greatness and glory of God and the vastness of eternity and the countless numbers of worlds that are and were created and then to bring it all into focus it simply explains with all of His greatness and glory and creations... His most important work, the point of all of creation of the entire universe of things and creatures His purpose is to exalt His children who includes all mankind on all the worlds that were and are and that will be. We are so important to Him that His every thought and intent is for our salvation and exaltation. That is the goal, that is the purpose. The fact that He expresses it in two parts "immortality and eternal life" is significant. Both aspects are significant. We tend to take for granted our immortality... this is a precious gift one that even if we are not exalted and become Gods yet we are still His children and He has prepared a place for all. His glory and His work is in the glorification and exaltation of His children. Being a father I in a small way understand this feeling. I love my wife and son more than anything and am willing to give my life for them if necessary. That is the whole of the plan of salvation, we are to attain the love of God, we are to develop this God given charity and in that way we can become as He is. We cannot create immortality, it is a free gift from God, we cannot create eternal life, that come by the grace of God to His beloved children who follow Him and make His work and glory theirs. We are our brothers keeper, the two great commandments are to "love God" and to "love our neighbor as ourselves" I do not think this can be emphasized too much. Our concern for our brothers and sisters should lead us to a "living faith" which includes actions that will assist them in their quest for eternal life. How can we do this? Preach the Gospel, Redeem the dead, and perfect the Saints. This is the program and purpose of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It may sound like a "knee-jerk Mormon Doctrine homily" but it is the meaning of this passage. The Priesthood is given for this very purpose, to serve others and help them follow Christ.

[Strindberg]

Okay, let me try to analyze my feelings a little more deeply in this regard. I am a guy so this is not easy for me.

I am aware that there are scriptures that speak of eternal life as being that kind of life that God enjoys, and is defined in the D&C as sort of a code name for exaltation.

I know it is important for Mormons to distinguish between "immortality" which they take to be living forever, which comes to all mankind as a free gift through the resurrection of the Savior; and "eternal life" which is made available through the Atonement through all who "qualify themselves" to receive that blessing.

I think my issue is that none of this is present in Moses 1:39.

Whatever it is that Moses is trying to say here, and I think he is saying a lot, it appears to be not that.

So when people read that scripture and then tack on the obligatory mini-sermon about the difference between "immortality" and "eternal life," something inside me says that they are drawing attention away from what the passage is trying to communicate, and taking the focus back to what is understood and accepted Mormon Doctrine.

Is that a bad thing? Maybe not, but I sort of think it is.

As long as we do a knee-jerk Mormon Doctrine homily on this passage of scripture about an issue it is not addressing, I think it less likely we will ever approach the passage on its own terms to try to find out what the author actually meant.

There. That's about as good as I can put it.

As I said in the OP, I know that this may sound petty, but I think part of my feelings stem from my perception that this attitude toward the scriptures is not limited to this verse.

It's just that this verse is such a good example of the phenomenon, based on my experience.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Well, I agree with you, essentially. And this goes together with your previous post (a week or three back) about everyone feeling the need to qualify what the scriptures say. On the one hand, this is understandable: we all feel the need to explain things, and authoritative explanations are helpful in classroom contexts. On the other hand, it's the sort of thing that probably prevents us from being really amazed by the scriptures at times. -- Moses had an experience that most of us will not have in this life. It led him to see, to really see, feel, experience the fact that "man is nothing" and yet somehow still matters in the vast scheme of things! That's amazing. As part of this he beheld that earth and all of its inhabitants, not missing out on a particle of it. Wow! He got an answer, or at least partial answer to his question "Why these things are so". The whole of Moses' vision has this poetic, soul-enlarging quality. We miss out on that when we lapse into legalism. But maybe that's the problem in general, that everything is susceptible of becoming perfunctory.

[sean0scott]

I think the point of the "mini-sermon" is that the distinction is in fact present in Moses 1:39. It would be redundent to say "immortality and eternal life" if there were no difference between the two conditions.

Yeah, can you imagine if the scriptures were full of verses that said the same thing more than once? Think of how confusing Isaiah would be if he said something like:

9. Associate yourselves, O ye people, and ye shall be broken in pieces; and give ear, all ye of far countries: gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces; gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces.

10. Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us.

(Cfr: Isa 8:9-10)

I bet people would constantly whine about how hard the beginning of the Book of Mormon is to read, etc.

[bluebell]

Yeah, can you imagine if the scriptures were full of verses that said the same thing more than once? Think of how confusing Isaiah would be if he said something like:

I bet people would constantly whine about how hard the beginning of the Book of Mormon is to read, etc.

I really don't see that Isaiah and the 'repetition' in the verse in moses can be compared in such a way.

There is a reason to use repetition obviously-but i don't see that one can successfully argue that Moses was doing the same thing that Isaiah was doing with repetition. The two examples are not the same. One is obvious repetition and the other can only be suggested as 'might be' repetition. In moses, a person has to assign a meaning to the words that isn't implied in the verse, or anywhere else in scripture either (what consig. was actually speaking against i think) in order to suggest that repetition was the goal.

[sean0scott]

I really don't see that Isaiah and the 'repetition' in the verse in moses can be compared in such a way.

I just jumped to a random chapter and fetched that one, I suppose I could have dug around a but more to find a better example; however I'll press on with the verses I chose.

Do you see how Isaiah employs some Hebrew poetry in Isa 8:10 by making a statement, then repeating it using different words. He does this throughout his writings. I bet he would have been awesome at "Taboo."

I was half serious, but I don't see why it is so hard to fathom the use of two words to say the same thing.

Then again I don't buy the Transgressions =/= Sins stuff, so take this equivocation business with a grain of salt.