Do You Believe The â??biblical Accountâ?�?

[dblagent007]

The LDS church and all its leaders in the their officiating capacity describe it as a worldwide flood. Unequivocally so. Why do people think Cinepro is putting something heretical out here? He is giving you all the official LDS version, plain and clear. Any dissent or disagreement is not disagreement with Cinepro, but with the official LDS doctrinal position.

You apologists are the heretics in this case arguing for anything less than a global worldwide flood.

Is this right Cinepro? I thought Cinepro's position is that Genesis makes no sense whatsoever unless it is a global flood.

My point has nothing to do with whether a localized flood is in conflict with LDS church leaders. Rather, my point is whether a localized flood is in conflict with Genesis itself. But now that you bring it up, IIRC from other threads, there were/are some LDS leaders that believe in the localized flood theory. Sure, they are in the minority, but they do exist.

[Jolard]

I actually think it is pretty clear that the church has taught a literal flood. You are going to have a much easier time finding talks and conference addresses that support the literal flood idea than oppose it.

That said, I don't believe in a literal flood. it makes no sense, and has no evidence. As I have said before, the only way I can believe in a global flood is if after the flood, God changed all the evidence in linguistics, genetics, biology, geology, chemistry, tree rings, ice core studies, etc etc etc to make it appear that the global flood never happened. Then it could have happened as a Global flood a few thousand years ago.

Otherwise it didn't happen, and the only choice is to say it is either figurative or was a localized event.

[dblagent007]

I actually think it is pretty clear that the church has taught a literal flood. You are going to have a much easier time finding talks and conference addresses that support the literal flood idea than oppose it.

That said, I don't believe in a literal flood. it makes no sense, and has no evidence. As I have said before, the only way I can believe in a global flood is if after the flood, God changed all the evidence in linguistics, genetics, biology, geology, chemistry, tree rings, ice core studies, etc etc etc to make it appear that the global flood never happened. Then it could have happened as a Global flood a few thousand years ago.

Otherwise it didn't happen, and the only choice is to say it is either figurative or was a localized event.

I'm still open to a global flood, but it certainly requires a lot, and I mean a LOT, of faith. I think a localized flood makes much sense given that the people at the time of Noah didn't even know the earth was round. When the flood story is read from their perspective (not with our current modern knowledge of the earth), I think it makes much more sense.

[JarMan]

The LDS church and all its leaders in the their officiating capacity describe it as a worldwide flood. Unequivocally so. Why do people think Cinepro is putting something heretical out here? He is giving you all the official LDS version, plain and clear. Any dissent or disagreement is not disagreement with Cinepro, but with the official LDS doctrinal position.

You apologists are the heretics in this case arguing for anything less than a global worldwide flood.

A global flood is the official doctrinal position of the church? Please provide the references for that statement.

[dweezle08]

"I love it.

A worldwide did not happen. That is as certain as anything in geology.

The reasons are so numerous (and compelling) that only the most profoundly scientifically illiterate mind could fail notice some of them all on his or her own. Hint 1: Tree ring records go back more than 10,000 years, with no evidence of a catastrophe during that time.

Hint 2: Grand Canyon strata.

Hint: Not anough water and a flood that deep would cause pressure so fantastic that... (it's supposed to be a hint so I'll let you fill in the rest)

http://www.skepticreport.com/creationism/s...tm#WhattaDeluge

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

The Egyptian civilization was around at least 12,000 years ago and it seem no flood slowed them down. As far as I know, they didn't mention anything about a flood. Did God wrap the mummies in saran wrap to keep them bone dry for a year?"

RE" I believe that to be "Arm of flesh" thinking. The scriptures are very clear that this was a global event."

Most certainly there was no global flood. Simply stating "the bible says so", or its "arm of the flesh thinking", isn't a valid retort to the mountains of ACTUAL evidence to the contrary. like it or not, the bible is technically a mythological work, assembled more than 300 years after Christ by a political/religious council, they assembled books from many unknown authors, from unknown time periods, as well as threw many books out.

It is more likely this was a local flood, and the locals made up a 'why' to make a nice parable out it. One could point to many other "flood myths" to speculate the origin of the story...

"long ago, as a child, I filed bible stories away in a mental folder entitled "Fairy Tales: Those Meant to Keep People In Line." Much later, flood stories other than that of Noah began to crop up here and there during my independent study of world history. It seemed that every culture had its own version of a Great Flood; many of these tales contained similarities:

* Humans are guilty of transgression.

* A God sends a flood as punishment.

* Instructions are sent to an individual to build a craft.

* The instructions include ensuring the survival of all species.

* The flood destroys the old race.

* After the flood, a new, less sinful race emerges to repopulate the earth.

Sumerian

In the eleventh tablet of the Semitic Babylonian epic of Gilagamesh is a flood story that is the source for the Noah story. The Gods resolved to cleanse the earth of an overpopulated humanity, but Utnapishtim was warned by the God Ea in a dream. He and some craftsmen built a huge (seven decks encompassing one acre in area) ark. Utnapishtim then loaded it with his family, the craftsmen, and "the seed of all living creatures." The waters rose up, and a storm continued for six days and six nights. The Gods repented and wept upon seeing the global destruction of living beings and stilled the flood on the seventh day. The waters covered everything but the top of the mountain Nisur, where the boat landed. A dove was loosed, but it returned, having found no place to rest. A swallow was sent, but it too returned. Seven days later, after having loosed a raven that did not return to the ark, the people began to emerge. Utnapishtim made a sacrifice to the Gods. He and his wife were given immortality and lived at the end of the earth.

Babylonian

Three times (every 1200 years), the Gods became distressed by the disturbance from human overpopulation. The Gods dealt with the problem first by plague, then by famine. Both times, the God Enki advised humans to bribe the God causing the problem. The third time, Enlil advised the Gods to destroy all humans with a flood, but Enki had Atrahasis build an ark and so escape. Also on the boat were cattle, wild animals and birds, and the family of Atrahasis. After seeing the suffering caused by the flood, the Gods regretted their action, and Enki established barren women and stillbirth to avoid the problem in the future.

Hebrew

Based on the Babylonian story with the difference that the flood was a harsh punishment for humanity's sinfulness. Noah was 600 years old when it began to rain for what ended up being 40 days and 40 nights. After the end of 150 days, the waters were abated. The ark rested in the seventh month upon the mountains of Ararat. Waters decreased until the 10th month, on the first day of the 10th month; tops of mountains were also seen. At the end of 40 days, Noah opened the windows of the ark. First, he sent a raven, which went to and fro. He then sent a dove, which returned and hadn't found land. After seven more days, another dove was loosed; it returned that evening with an olive leaf. The next week, the dove didn't return. After a year and 10 days from the start of the flood, every creature emerged from the ark. Noah sacrificed some clean animals and birds to God, and God, pleased with this, promised never again to destroy all living creatures.

Australian

During the Dreamtime flood, woramba, the Ark Gumana carrying Noah, Aborigines, and animals, drifted south and came to rest in the flood plain of Djilinbadu (about 70 km south of Noonkanbah Station, just south of the Barbwire Range and east of the Worral Range), where it can still be seen today. The white man's claim that it landed in the Middle East was a lie to keep Aborigines in subservience.

Chaldean

Xisuthrus was warned of a coming flood by the God Chronos, who ordered Xisuthrus to write a history and to build a vessel (5 stadia by 2 stadia) for his relations, friends, and two of every type of animal. After the flood began to subside, he sent out some birds, all of which returned. Upon trying again, the birds returned, their feet covered in mud. On the third trial, the birds didn't return. The people disembarked and offered sacrifices to the Gods. Xisuthrus, his wife, daughter, and the pilot of the ark were eventually transported to live with the Gods.

Zoroastrian

Ahura Mazda warned Yima that destruction in the form of floods, subsequent to the melting of the snow, was threatening the sinful world and gave him instructions for building a vara in which specimens of small and large cattle, humans, dogs, birds, fires, plants and foods were to be deposited in pairs.

Hindu

Manu, the first human, saved a small fish from the jaws of a larger fish. After hearing the smaller one beg for protection, Manu kept the fish safe, transferring it to larger and larger containers as it grew, finally returning it to the ocean.

Because of this kindness, the fish returned to warn Manu about an imminent flood and told him to build a boat, stocking it with samples of every species. After the flood waters rose, Manu tied a rope to the fish's horn. The fish led him to a mountain and told Manu to fasten the ship's rope to a tree so that it would not drift. He stayed on the mountain (known as Manu's Descent) while the flood swept away all living creatures. Manu alone survived.

Greco-Roman

Zeus decided to punish humanity for its evil ways. Other Gods grieved at the destruction because there would be no beings to worship them. Zeus promised a new stock, a race of miraculous origin. He was going to use thunderbolts when he remembered one of Fate's decrees: that a time would come when sea and earth and dome of the sky would blaze up, and the massive structure of the universe would collapse in ruins. With Poseidon's help, he caused storm and earthquake to flood every part of the land except the summit of Mount Parnassus. When Zeus crushed the hanging clouds in his hand, there was a loud crash, and sheets of rain fell from heaven. The rivers began rushing to the sea. When Neptune struck the earth with his trident, the rivers raced across the plains. Sea and earth could no longer be distinguished; all was sea without any shores, covering every living being except for one fortunate couple, Deucalion and Pyrrha. Earlier, Deucalion and Pyrrha had consulted Themis at her oracular shrine. She warned of a future flood, and they prepared by acquiring a boat. In time, their boat ran aground on the summit of Mount Parnassus. (Note: This is the mountain at Delphi, "navel of the earth" and home of the great oracle.)

Recognizing their piety, Zeus allowed them to live and withdrew the waters. It was then that Deucalion and Pyrrha remembered the other oracle given by Themis: to repopulate the world by throwing "behind you the bones of your great mother." Pyrrha didn't want to injure her mother's ghost by disturbing her bones. Prometheus soothed her fears. "Oracles are righteous and never advise guilty action..." They decided that the "bones" were stones in the body of the earth ("Great Mother"). They threw the stones, which became humans; men of the stones thrown by Deucalion; women, of those cast by Pyrrha. Animals were produced by earth of its own volition. According to Plato: "Many great deluges have taken place during the nine thousand years."

Jicarilla (Apache)

Before the Apaches emerged from the underworld, there were other people on the earth. Dios told an old man and old woman that it would rain forty days and nights. People were warned to go to the tops of four mountains (Tsisnatcin, Tsabidzilhi, Becdilhgai, and another whose identity isn't known) and not to look at the flood or sky. The people didn't believe the old couple. When the rains came, only a few people made it to the mountain tops and shut their eyes. Those who looked at the flood turned into fish or frogs; if they looked at the sky, they turned into birds. After eighty days, Dios told the 24 people remaining to open their eyes and come down. These 24 people went into mountains. Eight other people survived the flood who were able to travel by looking where they wanted to go, and they were there. These people told the Apaches about the flood before going into two mountains themselves. Around the turn of the millennium, the surface of the earth will again be destroyed, this time by fire.

Mayan

God sent the flood because the people made from wood (an early version of humans) had no souls, minds or hearts and had forgotten how they were made. They wanted to escape, but the animals that they had starved and beaten, the pots they had burnt, and the trees they'd stripped refused to help them. Only a few escaped the flood, and it is said that their descendants are monkeys.

Aztec

In the Valley of Mexico there lived a pious man named Tapi. Creator told him to build a boat to live in, to take his wife and a pair of every animal that existed. Neighbors thought he was crazy. As soon as he finished, it began to rain. The valley flooded; men and animals went to mountains, but they were submerged. The rain ended, waters receded, etc. Tapi realized that the flood waters had receded after having sent a dove that did not return. Tapi rejoiced.

Squamish

When the Squamish saw the great flood coming, they made a giant canoe and a long rope of cedar fibers with which they fastened the canoe to a giant rock. Into the canoe, they put every baby, a young man and woman to be their guardians, and food and water. The waters rose and drowned everyone else. After several days, the man saw Mount Baker in the distance. He cut the rope and paddled south to it, and made a new home there. The outline of the canoe can still be seen halfway up the slope of Mount Baker.

Skagit

The Creator made the earth and gave four names for it -- for the sun, waters, soil and forests. He said only a few people, with special preparation for the knowledge, should know all four names, or the world would change too suddenly. After a while, everyone learned the four names. When people started talking to the trees the change came in the form of a flood. When the people saw the flood coming, they made a giant canoe and filled it with five people and a male and female of all plants and animals. Water covered everything but the summit of Kobah and Takobah (Mts. Baker and Ranier). The canoe landed on the prairie. Doquebuth, the new Creator, was born of a couple from the canoe. He delayed getting his spirit powers, but finally did so after his family deserted him. At the direction of the Old Creator, he made people again from the soil and from the bones of the people who lived before the flood.

Mandingo

A charitable man gave away everything he had. The God Ouende rewarded him with riches, advised him to leave the area, and sent six months of rain to destroy his selfish neighbors. The descendants of the rich man became the present human race.

"People of Mount Jefferson"

Twice, a great flood came. Afraid that another might come, the people made a giant canoe from a big cedar. When they saw a third flood coming, they put the bravest young men and young women in the canoe, with plenty of food. Then the flood, bigger and deeper than the earlier ones, swallowed the land. It rained for many days and nights, but when the clouds finally parted for the third time, the people saw land (Mount Jefferson) and landed on it. When the water receded, they made their home at the base of the mountain. The canoe was turned to stone and can be seen on Mount Jefferson today.

Yakima

In early times, many people had gone to war with other tribes, but there were still some good people. One of the good men heard from the Land Above that a big water was coming. He told the other good people and decided they would make a dugout boat from the largest cedar they could find. Soon after the canoe was finished, the flood came, filling the valleys and covering the mountains. The bad people were drowned; the good people were saved in the boat. We don't know how long the flood stayed. The canoe can still be seen where it came down on Toppenish Ridge. The earth will be destroyed by another flood if people do wrong a second time.

Caddo

Four monsters grew large and powerful until they were high enough to touch the sky. One man heard a voice telling him to plant a hollow reed. He did so, and it quickly grew very big. He, his wife, and pairs of all good animals entered the reed. Waters rose to cover everything but the top of the reed and the heads of the monsters. Turtle destroyed the monsters by digging under them and uprooting them. The waters subsided, and winds dried the earth.

Chippewa

While the medicine man Wis-kay-tchach was hunting, his young wolf was killed by some water lynxes. Wis tried to kill one of the lynxes to get revenge. First, he turned himself into a stump at the edge of a lake. Frogs and snakes tried to pull the stump down, but Wis kept himself upright. The lynx, suspicions lulled, went to sleep. Wis returned to normal shape and, though warned to shoot the lynx's shadow, forgot and shot its body. He shot a second arrow at the shadow, but the lynx escaped into a river, which then overflowed and flooded the whole country. Wis escaped in a canoe.

Navajo

For their sins, the Gods expelled the Insect People from the first world by sending a wall of water from all directions. The Insect People flew up into the second world. Later, in the fourth world, descendants of these people were likewise punished. They escaped the floodwaters by climbing into a fast-growing reed. Cicada dug an entrance into the fifth world, where people live today.

Hopi

The people repeatedly became distant from Sotuknang, the creator. Twice he destroyed the world (by fire and by cold) and recreated it while the few people who still lived by the laws of creation took shelter underground with the ants. When people became corrupt and warlike a third time, Sotuknang guided them to Spider Woman, who cut down giant reeds and sheltered the people in the hollow stems. Sotuknang caused a great flood, and the people floated in their reeds for a long time. They emerged after coming to rest on a small piece of land. They still had as much food as they started with. Guided by their inner wisdom (which comes from Sotuknang through the door at the top of their head), the people traveled on, using the reeds as canoes. They went northeast, finding progressively larger islands, until they came to the Fourth World. When they reached it, they saw the islands sink into the ocean."

Interesting stuff...

Dweeze

[Nofear]

How can water from a "local" flood cover the mountaintops to a depth of 15 cubits?

At least one reading would say that there were waves of 15 cubit depth and that the mountains were covered (but not necessarily to 15 cubits). Genesis 7:20 (NIV, see footnote C)

The original hebrew should have been translated to hills instead of mountaintops.

As per the link above, they also chose to use mountain. In a local flood theory, mountains still would have been part of the Noah's "world".

[Tchild2]

A global flood is the official doctrinal position of the church? Please provide the references for that statement.

You can start here. Unless the Ensign does not reflect the official LDS doctrines? Donald W Perry.

Donald Perry states:

There is a third group of people—those who accept the literal message of the Bible regarding Noah, the ark, and the Deluge. Latter-day Saints belong to this group. In spite of the world’s arguments against the historicity of the Flood, and despite the supposed lack of geologic evidence, we Latter-day Saints believe that Noah was an actual man, a prophet of God, who preached repentance and raised a voice of warning, built an ark, gathered his family and a host of animals onto the ark, and floated safely away as waters covered the entire earth. We are assured that these events actually occurred by the multiple testimonies of God’s prophets.

Multiple prophets? I wish Donald Perry had mentioned which ones, but you could probably search and find it for yourself, instead of relying on a critic to supply you with what your prophets have taught.

Now your turn. Can you show any official statements of a local or less than global flood by any LDS leader, apostle or prophet?

[Ron Beron]

You can start here. Unless the Ensign does not reflect the official LDS doctrines? Donald W Perry.

Donald Perry states:

Multiple prophets? I wish Donald Perry had mentioned which ones, but you could probably search and find it for yourself, instead of relying on a critic to supply you with what your prophets have taught.

Now your turn. Can you show any official statements of a local or less than global flood by any LDS leader, apostle or prophet?

What position in the church does Bro. Perry hold? Secondly, the flood has been discussed as less than global by Bros. Widstoe, Talmage, and Roberts. Their comments are above.

[Tchild2]

What position in the church does Bro. Perry hold? Secondly, the flood has been discussed as less than global by Bros. Widstoe, Talmage, and Roberts. Their comments are above.

Well, what is the relation of the Ensign and its teachings to the LDS church? What is the relation of LDS.org to the church's teachings? Who controls the content of these mediums? Are there teachings in either the Ensign or on LDS.org that are wrong or non-doctrinal? If you know any, please elaborate.

How did Noah get from Western Missouri to the old world in a localized flood per this Times and Seasons Blog post The flood?

Thus, unlike the rest of Christendom, we understand that Adam and his descendants up to Noah were living in the region around the western bend of the Missouri River. Yet we also know from Genesis that Noah ended up in the Middle East,

Here are some more shout outs to a global flood from the LDS church:

LDS.org

Ensign 1980

Howard W. Hunter's book excerpt

Hey I see Cinepro commented on this site too!

[cinepro]

What position in the church does Bro. Perry hold? Secondly, the flood has been discussed as less than global by Bros. Widstoe, Talmage, and Roberts. Their comments are above.

Where are their comments? I think I missed that post.

[JarMan]

Well, what is the relation of the Ensign and its teachings to the LDS church?

Everything in the Ensign is not official church doctrine. Sorry.

What is the relation of LDS.org to the church's teachings?

Everything on lds.org is not official church doctine, either.

Who controls the content of these mediums?

Irrelevant.

Are there teachings in either the Ensign or on LDS.org that are wrong or non-doctrinal?

Of course.

If you know any, please elaborate.

I've been elaborating for several pages, now.

How did Noah get from Western Missouri to the old world in a localized flood per this Times and Seasons Blog post The flood?

He didn't. Sorry, but not everything in Times and Seasons is doctrinal.

Here are some more shout outs to a global flood from the LDS church:

LDS.org

Ensign 1980

Howard W. Hunter's book excerpt

Show me a revelation on the topic that has been excepted by the church as official canon. Or at the bare minimum, a letter signed by the First Presidency. Otherwise I'm going to have a tough time accepting it as official church doctrine.

[JarMan]

Now your turn. Can you show any official statements of a local or less than global flood by any LDS leader, apostle or prophet?

I never claimed there was official doctrine one way or another. And I don't depend exclusively on leaders or others to tell me how to interpret scripture.

I wish Donald Perry had mentioned which ones, but you could probably search and find it for yourself, instead of relying on a critic to supply you with what your prophets have taught.

I didn't ask you to tell me what was in various church-related publications. I asked you to support your claim that a global flood is "official church doctrine." So far you haven't been able to adequately support your assertion.

[Tchild2]

I never claimed there was official doctrine one way or another. And I don't depend exclusively on leaders or others to tell me how to interpret scripture.

Me neither --on the second half of your response. However, It is more than "interpreting" scripture, these literal beliefs are part of the cosmological fabric of Mormonism. Attempting to re-interpret them tears at that fabric, and is material to know whether LDS prophets really do speak or know what is true.

I didn't ask you to tell me what was in various church-related publications. I asked you to support your claim that a global flood is "official church doctrine." So far you haven't been able to adequately support your assertion.

Is there some "official church doctrine" stamp that gets attached to official doctrines? I showed that it is taught definitively in church publications, has prophetic testimonies (testimonies are stronger than opinions aren't they?) per Donald W. Perry's claim, and there are no contrary "official" teachings. What constitutes doctrine for you other than consistent, repeated teachings via official channels of the LDS church?

Why does the church bother reiterating these non-essential doctrines in the Ensign if they are so peripherial and non-essential or non-doctrinal? Why the effort to maintain a literal interpretation instead of admitting lack of knowledge or incorrect ideas? Just filling up space for lack of new material? Just curious.

[Danna]

I have come really late to this thread, but I find this issue fascinating.

This was one that had me pestering my seminary teacher (along with the position of women and the priesthood bar for blacks â?? a big deal at that time). From what I had been taught, the bible could not be taken literally. But the Book of Mormon was newly translated, the Book of Abraham was a direct translation of the words of Abraham as he wrote them himself, and to top it off, the Book of Moses was revealed of God and presumably pristine. These works re-confirmed the flood and several other impossible tales from the Bible. If the flood narrative were just from the POV of Noah, then why would it be confirmed with no further explanation in the restored/revealed works??

And if the flood was supposed to be a localized event, why is it mentioned at all in the restored/revealed scriptures? Along the repeated references to Noah as the second Adam, only eight humans left alive, the destruction of all men AND animals and the covenant?? It was apparent to me as a teenager, and still is now, that the worldwide flood is LDS doctrine.

Sevenbak has pointed out that the earth was divided 300 years after the flood. Does the D&C have any hints as to why New Zealand does not have any native land mammals? Only some wind-blown bats and marine mammals that are relatively late arrivals. We have some amazing flightless birds, insects and reptiles which have been called living fossils (my avatar is a tuatara), and dinosaur fossils (dead), and no mammal fossils (living or dead). As opposed to being newly evolved, the opposite is true, our fauna is ancient. New Zealand separated from Gondwanaland in the Mesozoic â?? before mammals evolved (according to the so-called scientists).

So, after the flood, what kept out every mammal but allowed the kiwi, moa, takahe and other unique flightless birds to get here? Not to mention our unique insects like the weta, and our ancient reptiles. We didnâ??t even get any people until about 1000 years ago (and supposed Nephites at that!). The lack of predatory mammals has had a huge impact on the evolution of our birds, reptiles, and insects â?? many of them occupy the niches that mammals have taken in other places â?? witness our carnivorous alpine parrot! The kea is a total pest and even attacks adult sheep (which arrived with the European settlers less than 200 years ago) â?? gouging holes in their backs as it digs for the kidneys. I could go on. The situation with NZ fauna is only one of many natural phenomena that cannot be correlated with a Noachian flood.

As to the world-wide occurrence of flood myths â?? there are also myths found in most cultures concerning expeditions into the underworld, the death and resurrection of the fertility deity, the advent of fire, fire from the earth/volcanic activity, confrontation with a primordial mother and many many others. These are archetypes probably emergent from the shared experience of being human and making sense of the natural world. That one, or even a few of these archetypes appears in the bible is not remarkable.

Basically, this is one instance where LDS doctrine conflicts with empirical science.

Cheers, Danna

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

How did Noah get from Western Missouri to the old world in a localized flood per this Times and Seasons Blog post The flood?

I am sure people had migrated from the days of Adam...I have heard (maybe someone can help with this) that the Mississippi Basin is where "Gopher Wood" is found in quantities large enough to build the Ark. Don't know where I heard this but it was at least 20+ years ago...I slept since then.

[thesometimesaint]

Danna:

I of course can not speak for your seminary teacher. So either you misremember what was actually said or he/she was wrong.

I suggest you read http://farms.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=73

[T-Shirt]

I am sure people had migrated from the days of Adam...I have heard (maybe someone can help with this) that the Mississippi Basin is where "Gopher Wood" is found in quantities large enough to build the Ark. Don't know where I heard this but it was at least 20+ years ago...I slept since then.

I don't know how anyone could draw that conclusion. No one even knows what gopher wood is?

T-Shirt

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I don't know how anyone could draw that conclusion. No one even knows what gopher wood is?

T-Shirt

OK, need the geek squad to help here. I found some interesting info here.

[Tarski]

We are assured that these events actually occurred by the multiple testimonies of Godâ??s prophets--Donald Perry

I think this is right. But what does it mean? Well, I take it as a gigantic hint concering the question of who is or isn't a true prophet, seer or oracleof truth.

If the prophets declare that the flood was real and global and that the ark carried two of each animal, well then so much worse for the "prophets" (Thanks for the useful hint). They may as well declare that the earth was created 6000 years ago or even that the earth is hollow or flat.

[cinepro]

Show me a revelation on the topic that has been excepted by the church as official canon. Or at the bare minimum, a letter signed by the First Presidency. Otherwise I'm going to have a tough time accepting it as official church doctrine.

You want a "revelation" that has been accepted by the church as "official canon"?

How about the Old Testament? Does that count?

I'm sorry to break the bad news to you, but Genesis describes a global flood. It isn't a local flood described by a limited perspective. It isn't a flimsy translation of an originally described local flood. It is describing a global, worldwide, everything-including-Australia flood.

This is obvious in so many ways I feel silly for even needing to say it. But the critical, undeniable point is this:

If Genesis was describing a local flood, then God was covenanting with Noah to not send any more local floods. Which He has, like, a bazilliion times. Which would make God a liar. I repeat: the theory of a local flood makes God a liar, and a breaker of covenants.

Here is the critical line of the covenant:

Genesis 9

1 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

So the global flood is official doctrine because it is in the Standard Works, which are a source of Official Doctrine. The countless statements by modern day apostles are given as official support for the idea that the Standard Works do, indeed, teach a Global Flood. But even if you are to argue that none of these statements individually or collectively establish the teaching as "Official Doctrine", when you add in the fact that the source of the doctrine is the scriptures themselves, that's pretty much the end of the argument for any but the most delusional.

BCSpace likes to cite the Church's own methodology for determining "Official Doctrine", so let's look at that as a guideline:

With divine inspiration, the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four â??standard worksâ? of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith.

Approaching Mormon Doctrine

So let's see. Using the Church's own definition from their website, is Noah's Global flood "official doctrine"?

- Consistently proclaimed in Official Church Publications? Yes (Ensign, all church-published Sunday School manuals, all Church published CES manuals, all references in General Conference talks by General Authorities)

- Resides in the four "standard works"? Yes. Very much so. The source for the doctrine is the standard works, and it is referred to several times in different scriptures.

And as I've listed before, it isn't a matter of two equally valid interpretations of the flood story. The global flood is totally consistent with every word of the Bible; the local flood turns the story on its head, rendering it absolutely non-sensical and almost a farce, culminating in a silly covenant that doesn't mean anything.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. There are two different kinds of Mormons. Dr. Shades called them "Chapel Mormons" and "Internet Mormons", and he developed a multi-point methodology to differentiate between the two. But I don't think it's that complicated. There are the LDS who accept the global flood story, and those who don't. I think that simple litmus test tells us all we need to know about a church-member's thought processes, and their openness to "alternate" theories regarding Church doctrine. Whether or not there is value in that distinction is another matter.

[Tarski]

But the critical, undeniable point is this:

If Genesis was describing a local flood, then God was covenanting with Noah to not send any more local floods. Which He has, like, a bazilliion times. Which would make God a liar. I repeat: the theory of a local flood makes God a liar, and a breaker of covenants.

Hammer, meet nail head.

Every local flood theorist should read your whole post--twice.

Local flood theory is just rationalizing. The Bible says what it says. I call on everyone to face up to it or join the modern scientific age and treat Bible stories as the occasionally insightful myths and fables that they are.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

From what I had been taught, the bible could not be taken literally. But the Book of Mormon was newly translated, the Book of Abraham was a direct translation of the words of Abraham as he wrote them himself, and to top it off, the Book of Moses was revealed of God and presumably pristine. These works re-confirmed the flood and several other impossible tales from the Bible. If the flood narrative were just from the POV of Noah, then why would it be confirmed with no further explanation in the restored/revealed works??

Hmm Lets dive a little deeper.

The book of Matthew in the Bible was the written by Matthew? I was never taught that Abraham pended the document that JS had. Abraham may have written the original document but some else had copied it. This is all for another thread though.

You do bring up some other intresting points though. I am undecided on this issue. One thing is for sure is that it doesnt matter either way. I am not required to believe or disbelieve the flood in any capacity.

[T-Shirt]

If Genesis was describing a local flood, then God was covenanting with Noah to not send any more local floods. Which He has, like, a bazilliion times. Which would make God a liar. I repeat: the theory of a local flood makes God a liar, and a breaker of covenants.

This is just more of your typical argument. It is always one extreme or another, there is no middle ground with you. I don't know how you function in life.

Based on your statement above, is it your opinion that every flood since the beginning of man (or, at least, the bazillion you had in mind) was sent by God?

T-Shirt

[ElGuapo]

T-Shirt, are you saying what I think you're saying? What kind of covenant is that? "I promise to never personally flood the land again ... but man if it just starts raining a whole lot, you're on your own!" Seems like false advertising, or at least there should be a disclaimer of some kind on the covenant then.

[Luigi]

Why does the church bother reiterating these non-essential doctrines in the Ensign if they are so peripherial and non-essential or non-doctrinal? Why the effort to maintain a literal interpretation instead of admitting lack of knowledge or incorrect ideas? Just filling up space for lack of new material? Just curious.

You just don't get it Tchild2 do you? The Church isn't responsible for what goes into the Ensign. It's full of rogue opinions, interpretations, and emphasis just like Dialogue or Sunstone.