Near Death Experiences

[freedom_of_religion]

PBS had a special on last night about near death experiences. Some were pretty convincing, but then come the scientists to disprove them. Some say that the same experiences are the same as when fighter pilots and people on mind altering drugs. One guy even suggested that the near death experience was the bodies way of making death a more "pleasant" experience. What are y'alls thoughts?

[selek]

PBS had a special on last night about near death experiences. Some were pretty convincing, but then come the scientists to disprove them. Some say that the same experiences are the same as when fighter pilots and people on mind altering drugs. One guy even suggested that the near death experience was the bodies way of making death a more "pleasant" experience. What are y'alls thoughts?

It's early, and I haven't had my pills yet, so I wonder if you could clarify the statement above about fighter pilots and people on mind-altering drugs?

Granted, most fighter pilots are already crazy, and mind-altering drugs hasten the trip (pun intended) but I don't understand what you're trying to say.

[freedom_of_religion]

PBS had a special on last night about near death experiences. Some were pretty convincing, but then come the scientists to disprove them. Some say that the same experiences are the same as when fighter pilots and people on mind altering drugs. One guy even suggested that the near death experience was the bodies way of making death a more "pleasant" experience. What are y'alls thoughts?

Actually it was jet pilots, something about when they did their G-force tests, there was a point (when they pass out?) that they have the same euphoric (?) experience that is described by those with near death experiences. The mind altering drugs, I don't know which ones. They talked to one guy that went to Rave (?) parties and had a cocktail of drugs he took and had the same experiences. (Very early for me to, that why all the spelling errors )

[TJane]

I think that you are asking if we believe the near death experience-ees or the scientists that claim that all near death experiences are explained by the brain's strange activities when faced with impending termination.

I think that there are times when people are dead and go over to the spirit world to visit. If they come back, sometimes they remember their experiences, sometimes they don't. Those who are brave enough, share those experiences with us.

I think that sometimes there are other experiences that mirror this near death experience, such as those situations in the OP about pilots, etc. I think those are real experiences too.

Just because there can be more than one way to have an experience doesn't automatically discount those ways.

For example:

I feel sick to my stomach.

Let's look at all the reasons I could be experiencing this (from a website on causes of nausea):

Common reasons for nausea:

- Infection (viral "stomach flu")

- Food poisoning or infection

- Motion sickness

- Over-eating/over-feeding (mostly in infants and small children)

- Blocked intestine

- Other illnesses, especially those causing high fever

- Cough

More serious reasons for nausea:

- Concussion or other brain injury

- Brain infection (encephalitis or meningitis)

- Intestinal blockage

- Appendicitis

- Migraine

- Brain tumors

Interestingly enough, nowhere does it mention my personal favorite: morning sickness.

So, if I experience nausea, it could be one of many different things causing it. Just because one time it is motion sickness doesn't meant that all the time I'm sick it is motion sickness. Or if you are feeling sick at the same time I feel sick, you must have the same condition I do.

Thus, I think that there are different ways to get the near death experience of, say, experiencing the floating over your body sensation, going through a tunnel towards the light, etc. etc. Scientists that insist on finding one reason for the near death experiences, IMO, are restricting themselves, perhaps because they don't want to admit that there may be life after death.

Jane

[edited to fix typo. May be others, but I didn't see them]

[freedom_of_religion]

I think that you are asking if we believe the near death experience-ees or the scientists that claim that all near death experiences are explained by the brain's strange activities when faced with impending termination.

I think that there are times when people are dead and go over to the spirit world to visit. If they come back, sometimes they remember their experiences, sometimes they don't. Those who are brave enough, share those experiences with us.

I think that sometimes there are other experiences that mirror this near death experience, such as those situations in the OP about pilots, etc. I think those are real experiences too.

Just because there can be more than one way to have an experience doesn't automatically discount those ways.

For example:

I feel sick to my stomach.

Let's look at all the reasons I could be experiencing this (from a website on causes of nausea):

Common reasons for nausea:

- Infection (viral "stomach flu")

- Food poisoning or infection

- Motion sickness

- Over-eating/over-feeding (mostly in infants and small children)

- Blocked intestine

- Other illnesses, especially those causing high fever

- Cough

More serious reasons for nausea:

- Concussion or other brain injury

- Brain infection (encephalitis or meningitis)

- Intestinal blockage

- Appendicitis

- Migraine

- Brain tumors

Interestingly enough, nowhere does it mention my personal favorite: morning sickness.

So, if I experience nausea, it could be one of many different things causing it. Just because one time it is motion sickness doesn't meant that all the time I'm sick it is motion sickness. Or if you are feeling sick at the same time I feel sick, you must have the same condition I do.

Thus, I think that there are different ways to get the near death experience of, say, experiencing the floating over your body sensation, going through a tunnel towards the light, etc. etc. Scientists that insist on finding one reason for the near death experiences, IMO, are restricting themselves, perhaps because they don't want to admit that there may be life after death.

Jane

[edited to fix typo. May be others, but I didn't see them]

I find it funny that so many of these scientists always have to try to disprove the possibility of an afterlife instead of trying to prove that there is one. One of the guys on this show said that by floating out of our bodies during stressful periods was the bodies natural way of protecting itself. It was the same with death itself, that our minds have found a way to make the process of death easier to take by creating these "happy thoughts" to help us cope with dying.

[Deborah]

One of the guys on this show said that by floating out of our bodies during stressful periods was the bodies natural way of protecting itself.

Have they explained how "floating" out of their bodies enables these people to see details of what is going on in the room that they could not see from their perspective of lying on the bed. And if they admit that this happens as a protection, I think that is pretty amazing in itself that the body could do something like that. Scientists love to explain why things can't be when it comes to the area of faith, but work doggedly to make things work when it comes to some other wild ideas, oh, like sending a written document through a telephone line.

Jane, love your analogy. Because A is true sometimes doesn't mean B isn't true other times.

[Kevin Christensen]

Regarding explanations and counter explanations of the NDE, see Raymond Moody, The Light Beyond, and/or Carol Zaleski's Otherworld Journeys. Also, FWIW, I have an essay called "Nigh Unto Death: NDE Research and the Book of Mormon" in Journal of Book of Mormon Studies v2 n 1.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[John Williams]

I read a few studies some years ago suggesting that NDEs are constructed from our cultural and religious expectations. In other words, we see what we expect to see.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I was at the Airport the other day a saw a book entitled, "23 Min in Hell". Talk about a NDE.

[selek]

I was at the Airport the other day a saw a book entitled, "23 Min in Hell". Talk about a NDE.

Was it talking about "quality time" with the TSA?

[Anijen]

Have they explained how "floating" out of their bodies enables these people to see details of what is going on in the room that they could not see from their perspective of lying on the bed. And if they admit that this happens as a protection, I think that is pretty amazing in itself that the body could do something like that. Scientists love to explain why things can't be when it comes to the area of faith, but work doggedly to make things work when it comes to some other wild ideas, oh, like sending a written document through a telephone line.

Jane, love your analogy. Because A is true sometimes doesn't mean B isn't true other times.

I read or watched (I cant remember, maybe I am closer to a NDE than I realize) that a doctor studying NDE painted certain words or shapes on the top side of the fans so if one has them they can say what they read or saw and proving that they seen them. So far no one has. I didnt know there were fans in OR's...

[John Larsen]

I read a few studies some years ago suggesting that NDEs are constructed from our cultural and religious expectations. In other words, we see what we expect to see.

That's true. Buddhists have Buddhist NDEs Christians have Christian NDEs. Even if they are real, they don't seem to add in credence to one particular belief system.

[Lightbearer]

I read a few studies some years ago suggesting that NDEs are constructed from our cultural and religious expectations. In other words, we see what we expect to see.

Does that mean we have no recorded NDE of atheists or agnostics?

[Kate]

I read a few studies some years ago suggesting that NDEs are constructed from our cultural and religious expectations. In other words, we see what we expect to see.

That's interesting John. I wonder how it is then, that some people meet members of their family that haven't been born yet?

[John Williams]

That's interesting John. I wonder how it is then, that some people meet members of their family that haven't been born yet?

The content isn't necessarily determined by the expectation, but it certainly determines the context. As for unborn kids, who knows?

[John Larsen]

That's interesting John. I wonder how it is then, that some people meet members of their family that haven't been born yet?

There is a whole body of similar works by Buddhists and Hindus who believe in reincarnation. In these stories children are born after an adult passes. These children supposedly know all sorts of intimate details about the past individual that could only be known by that person. I recall one in which a small boy called an older woman by a pet name that only her late husband knew.

How in the world could this be if these children were not actually the reincarnated souls of the deceased?

I don't think you will have trouble dismissing these stories just like I don't have trouble dismissing the ones you mention.

[MormonMason]

I read a few studies some years ago suggesting that NDEs are constructed from our cultural and religious expectations. In other words, we see what we expect to see.

That's true. Buddhists have Buddhist NDEs Christians have Christian NDEs. Even if they are real, they don't seem to add in credence to one particular belief system.

It's all about perception. One's perceptions can be altered by one's experiences and beliefs. If one were to see a being of light, what would one call it? One might call it Krishna in one of his forms. One might call it a Buddha. One might call it Christ. One might call it something else. But, we draw off of our vocabulary in reconstructing details of what we perceive when relating that perception to others. It is human nature and necessity.

[MormonMason]

There is a whole body of similar works by Buddhists and Hindus who believe in reincarnation. In these stories children are born after an adult passes. These children supposedly know all sorts of intimate details about the past individual that could only be known by that person. I recall one in which a small boy called an older woman by a pet name that only her late husband knew.

How in the world could this be if these children were not actually the reincarnated souls of the deceased?

I don't think you will have trouble dismissing these stories just like I don't have trouble dismissing the ones you mention.

These reincarnation stories tend not to be published in all their glory, particularly those which have other interesting happenstances. I read the account of a so-called "past life regression" under hypnosis that quite interested me some years ago. I would have to remember the source and the location of said source but I do remember part of it that was the most interesting part.

After going through all sorts of past life experiences of various individuals through history, at one point, the person then began to contort the body and finally under duress admitted to being one of the fallen angels and that he had seized that body at that time during the hypnosis and had been lying about all the past lives.

The fact is, that if there are evil spirits--and I verily know they exist, having experienced them in their horror--they would know well the historical details of others all throughout history and could recall them with precise detail in ways that no other mortal man on earth might in many circumstances. I do not recall all the details of the experience but I do recall that there were some interesting words exchanged during a conversation with this person.

Hmmm... What was that source....? I'll have to give it some thought.

[John Larsen]

The fact is, that if there are evil spirits--and I verily know they exist, having experienced them in their horror--they would know well the historical details of others all throughout history and could recall them with precise detail in ways that no other mortal man on earth might in many circumstances.

That could be used to answer Kate's question. It could be used to explain the First Vision too, for that matter. Once you allow for an explanation like this all bets are off. This can be used to explain practically anything.

[Kate]

That could be used to answer Kate's question. It could be used to explain the First Vision too, for that matter. Once you allow for an explanation like this all bets are off. This can be used to explain practically anything.

It can be used, because it can be true in some instances. I met my last two children, learned things to be, etc. All of which happened. That was not done by evil spirits...

If you have not experienced anything that comes from Heaven, then I can understand that you wouldn't understand.

[Deborah]

That could be used to answer Kate's question. It could be used to explain the First Vision too, for that matter. Once you allow for an explanation like this all bets are off. This can be used to explain practically anything.

True, but because evil spirits are responsible in one case doesn't mean they are in the other. And if evil spirits exist then why not the other kind?

[John Larsen]

True, but because evil spirits are responsible in one case doesn't mean they are in the other. And if evil spirits exist then why not the other kind?

True. But if you assert that your metaphysics is the product of good spirits and other people's metaphysics is the product of evil spirits, you should be ready to justify that answer.

Actually I know the answer. It is because you metaphysical experience told you that the other metaphysical experiences were evil. Problem solved.

[MormonMason]

That could be used to answer Kate's question. It could be used to explain the First Vision too, for that matter. Once you allow for an explanation like this all bets are off. This can be used to explain practically anything.

True, it could be used in many circumstances. However, it makes it somewhat difficult to explain in the case of Joseph Smith. Evil spirits do not have bodies. The scriptures say that Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light, but nowhere says that the other evil spirits could do or have done the same.

When you have two personages in the First Vision, and the appearance of angels in the presence of two or more witnesses, and cases where these touch persons and are found to be solid personages, and even several solid personages at once in a few cases, are far more than difficult to explain away in this manner in Joseph Smith's case.

[Garden Girl]

I've mentioned in previous NDE threads that Brent and Wendy Top wrote a very interesting book, titled "Beyond Death's Door," chronicling their research into ND experiences. They concentrated on mainly non-LDS cases in order to ascertain the relationship of LDS concepts of the afterlife with the subject's experience. One thing I liked about the reports by NDEr's was many reported on the "vibrant colors" without being gaudy... and the sense of "music" that filled the air, like nothing they had ever heard before... it was like an "energy."

The Garden Girl

[John Larsen]

True, it could be used in many circumstances. However, it makes it somewhat difficult to explain in the case of Joseph Smith. Evil spirits do not have bodies. The scriptures say that Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light, but nowhere says that the other evil spirits could do or have done the same.

When you have two personages in the First Vision, and the appearance of angels in the presence of two or more witnesses, and cases where these touch persons and are found to be solid personages, and even several solid personages at once in a few cases, are far more than difficult to explain away in this manner in Joseph Smith's case.

And how do you know this? That's my point.