Near Death Experiences

[Scottie]

I have heard stories of people that would die and be whisked away to where their loved one was working in the garden or something. When they are brought back, they can describe exactly what the loved one was doing, wearing, saying, etc.I hold a large amount of skepticism for these stories, as anyone can make something like this up, with no way to verify it.Personally, I don't know about an afterlife.

Has anyone here had a NDE? Or do you personally know anyone that has?

[MormonMason]

And how do you know this? That's my point.

The witnesses of said events testified to seeing such things?

[Bibletruth]

PBS had a special on last night about near death experiences. Some were pretty convincing, but then come the scientists to disprove them. Some say that the same experiences are the same as when fighter pilots and people on mind altering drugs. One guy even suggested that the near death experience was the bodies way of making death a more "pleasant" experience. What are y'alls thoughts?

What really bothers me about this "near death" experiences, is when people claim that they were in heaven without ever mentioning the Lord Jesus. It seems to me, that "the light" they follow has to be the light of Christ, or it is a false light. Could these things be part of demonic deceptions?

[John Larsen]

The witnesses of said events testified to seeing such things?

Well, not exactly. But that is a discussion for another time and thread.

[John Williams]

What really bothers me about this "near death" experiences, is when people claim that they were in heaven without ever mentioning the Lord Jesus. It seems to me, that "the light" they follow has to be the light of Christ, or it is a false light. Could these things be part of demonic deceptions?

Maybe other people's NDEs just don't match your expectations of what an NDE should be.

[Bibletruth]

Maybe other people's NDEs just don't match your expectations of what an NDE should be.

Well, let me explain. I personally believe that our "afterlife" experiences will be the result of what we have done with Jesus. Is He our Lord and Savior? It's the same with that show, "Crossing Over." Experiences which don't involve faith in Christ, but give people false hope that they can be saved without Christ, are simply not in keeping with God's revelation. Would you agree?

[John Williams]

Well, let me explain. I personally believe that our "afterlife" experiences will be the result of what we have done with Jesus. Is He our Lord and Savior? It's the same with that show, "Crossing Over." Experiences which don't involve faith in Christ, but give people false hope that they can be saved without Christ, are simply not in keeping with God's revelation. Would you agree?

Why would such a near-death experience give people false hope? I guess I'm not understanding you. NDEs are what they are (and I think I was pretty clear that I think they are mostly constructs built of expectations), nothing more.

[Bibletruth]

Why would such a near-death experience give people false hope? I guess I'm not understanding you. NDEs are what they are (and I think I was pretty clear that I think they are mostly constructs built of expectations), nothing more.

What I mean is that when people claim that they visited "heaven," and give absolutely no indication that "heaven" is a place for those who have placed their faith in Christ, it leads people to believe: "all roads lead to heaven." I personally don't believe that. I believe that Jesus is the Way, and I believe that Mormons agree with that, right?

[MormonMason]

...

Has anyone here had a NDE? Or do you personally know anyone that has?

I do not recall at the moment having had one myself. I do know a couple people who had.

One of them was not really a full NDE but it was interesting, nonetheless. In his account, he was racing on a motorcycle around some cliffs. He went off at the wrong place and ended up hitting the ground below and entangled with his motorcyle. He remembers hitting the ground and bouncing up into the air. When he reached the high point of his bounce, he looked down and saw his body entangled in the motorcycle below, and then fell back into his body.

The other person I know was pronounced clinically dead and was toe-tagged. She described an elaborate NDE in which at the end was then told that it was not her time so she had to go back. She came to on a slab of the hospital morgue screaming. She was angry for days afterward that she had to come back. I do not recall all the details of her NDE, but if I recall correctly, she did keep her death certificate and her toe-tag. It was one of the more interesting accounts I had ever heard.

I do also recall that she saw the Lord Jesus who explained a couple things to her as well, but the details are sketchy in memory these days. I suppose I should have written it down at the time.

[MormonMason]

Well, not exactly. But that is a discussion for another time and thread.

Well, exactly--in the case of John the Baptist and Peter, James and John. They mentioned that hands were laid on their heads as well. The accounts given before many people read like any eyewitness accounts of the same event by two different people would read when recorded.

[John Williams]

What I mean is that when people claim that they visited "heaven," and give absolutely no indication that "heaven" is a place for those who have placed their faith in Christ, it leads people to believe: "all roads lead to heaven." I personally don't believe that. I believe that Jesus is the Way, and I believe that Mormons agree with that, right?

So, you're basically saying that NDEs that agree with your beliefs are good, whereas those that don't are bad. I would imagine some, but not all, Mormons would go along with that.

I'm not a believer anymore, so I don't really put much stock in NDEs. But then I didn't when I was still a believer.

[Bibletruth]

So, you're basically saying that NDEs that agree with your beliefs are good, whereas those that don't are bad. I would imagine some, but not all, Mormons would go along with that.

I'm not a believer anymore, so I don't really put much stock in NDEs. But then I didn't when I was still a believer.

That's right, now I remember. Do you believe that faith in Christ is necessary for salvation at all? If not, why not?

[LifeOnaPlate]

I would be wary to conflate terms and description with actual experience. We typically understand and/or describe events according to what we expect or already "know" or have experienced.

[Deborah]

That's right, now I remember. Do you believe that faith in Christ is necessary for salvation at all? If not, why not?

John, you stepped into that.

[Bibletruth]

I would be wary to conflate terms and description with actual experience. We typically understand and/or describe events according to what we expect or already "know" or have experienced.

Yes, this is true. I wonder if you'd be interested in this article:

http://www.watchman.org/na/anglight.htm

Warning: it's from a Christian apologetics site, but pretty interesting.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Yes, this is true. I wonder if you'd be interested in this article:

http://www.watchman.org/na/anglight.htm

Warning: it's from a Christian apologetics site, but pretty interesting.

Well I shouldnt argue about semantics. But.....

Mormons are Christians. So what your really saysing is that that sight is anti-mormonism??

Very interesting non the less.

[Bibletruth]

Well I shouldnt argue about semantics. But.....

Mormons are Christians. So what your really saysing is that that sight is anti-mormonism??

Very interesting non the less.

We're not "anti" Mormon, or anti anything. We are pro-Christian. Does that help?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

We're not "anti" Mormon, or anti anything. We are pro-Christian. Does that help?

Oh good we have something else in common.

[Bibletruth]

Oh good we have something else in common.

Gotcha!

[John Williams]

That's right, now I remember. Do you believe that faith in Christ is necessary for salvation at all? If not, why not?

To be honest, I don't know.

And Deb, I'm not sure what I stepped into. I'm checking my shoes right now.

[Bibletruth]

To be honest, I don't know.

And Deb, I'm not sure what I stepped into. I'm checking my shoes right now.

Don't worry, I'm not going to attack you. I was just curious.

To me, Jesus is the Way to the Father, the One and Only Way. Anyone who goes to the Father, will go through Jesus. This is why we are commanded to go out into all the world to preach His Gospel. However, I also believe that faith in Christ is a result of God's call. We particpate in that call by sharing the Gospel, but we do not elect anybody to salvation.

[Kevin Christensen]

Regarding cultural expectations and NDEs, I wrote about this in my JBMS 2/1 essay, which contains the appropriate sources.

The Grofs remark that "comparative studies of concepts of afterlife have revealed far reaching similarities" among different cultures.31 However, Zaleski points out that "between those whose attention is captured by the discrepancies among different visions, and those who are dazzled by their similarities, there is a temperamental distance, unlikely to be bridged by logical arbitration."32 Carol Zaleski's Otherworld Journeys attempts a cross-cultural view of the NDE, and by so doing directly confronts the issue of the influence of culture on visionary experience.

Paul's famous uncertainty, "whether in the body or out of the body, I know not: God knows," recurs in new forms. . . . The more telling question has become "whether in my culture or out of my culture, I know not, God knows."33

The account of Lehi's dream emerges as the best ground for discussion of the issue of culture and revelation. Lehi's dream shows parallels both with modern and ancient otherworld journey literature. In chapter 20 of An Approach to the Book of Mormon, Nibley demonstrated that the dream imagery is culturally specific to Lehi's desert lifestyle.34 The dream is also archetypally symbolic compared to the medieval accounts discussed by Carol Zaleski, and with the cross-cultural representations of heaven and hell gathered by Stanislav and Christina Grof. For example, Zaleski's description of the guide in medieval accounts applies equally to Nephi's experience.

The guide . . . escorts the visionary from place to place, pushing the story forward and interpreting the inner significance of otherworld scenes; he thus calls attention to the symbolic character of the other world, and the need for spiritual instruction in this life and the next.35

Lehi's account of the iron rod, and many people being lost in mists of darkness, and falling into the filthy river echoes many of the medieval "Test Bridge" accounts in Zaleski.36 Common motifs in the medieval visionary literature include the "river of hell, the flowery meadows of paradise, the white-clothed throngs in heaven, the test-bridge."37 According to Zaleski, the test bridge of medieval vision literature "symbolizes safe passage" across the river but also "intensifies the dangers of crossing otherworld boundaries. Whoever sets foot on its narrow planks is singled out for the attention of forces seeking the soul's downfall."38 The righteous "cross easily to the meadows on the opposite shore while the unjust lose their footing and fall."39 The iron rod in Lehi's vision performs a symbolic function equivalent to the test bridge of medieval visions....

Nephi's answer anticipates Zaleski's grand question and her thoughtful answer about NDEs. Nephi tells his brothers that the symbols refer to both temporal and spiritual things (1 Nephi 15:32). Zaleski argues that NDEs are works of a socially conditioned religious imagination, but that the symbols participate in the reality that they represent. She treats them as "socially conditioned, imaginative, and yet nonetheless real and revelatory."42

In Lehi's dream, everything is unashamedly symbolic. We accept his culturally specific symbols because we accept the source of the dream as divine, and the symbols as corresponding to reality. Far from discounting cultural influence in the revelations, Nephi insists that Isaiah, for example, cannot be understood properly without knowledge of Isaiah's Hebrew culture (2 Nephi 25:5). The Doctrine and Covenants and the Book of Mormon both claim that revelation comes to people "in their weakness, according to their language and understanding" (2 Nephi 31:3). Joseph Smith often taught that God adapted himself to our capacity to understand.43 For example, during a 1909 NDE an American Catholic priest met his father "looking exactly as he had in the last few years of his life," wearing the "last suit of clothes he had owned."44 Father Tucker wrote, "I knew that the clothes Father wore were assumed because they were familiar to me, so that I might feel no strangeness in seeing him, and that to some lesser extent, his appearance was assumed also."45

Still, if we agree with Carol Zaleski that the culturally specific and symbolic aspects of the NDE prevent us from mapping the otherworld, "the otherworld journey motif remains potent only as long as it retains at least a hint of correspondence to a sensed, dreamed, or imagined reality."46

Modern NDEs keep their potency despite culturally specific elements because NDErs often bring back testable observations of what happened around them while they claimed to be out of their bodies. Accurate out-of-body observations cannot be explained in terms of cultural symbolism, or psychology. The most striking test of the reality of out-of-body reports has been Michael Sabom's research.47 He asked thirty-two patients who claimed to have watched their resuscitation to describe the medical procedure involved. None made mistakes. Then he asked a control group of twenty-five "medically savvy" patients to describe the procedure. Twenty-three of the twenty-five made major mistakes.

Sabom was cardiologist who had no belief in an afterlife and was skeptical of Moody's book when it first came out. He set out to test its claims. Since he has personally recussitated many people, and had never heard anything like it, he had no expectations of any validation. The first time he actually tried asking a patient, he heard a full-blown NDE report. It's a very good example of how expectations can control inquiry. People rarely discover what they never imagine, never consider, and never explore. Sabom found all sorts of things from the day he started looking.

Regarding the claim that NDErs simply see what they expect to see, at the IANDS conference in Salt Lake in 1999, I heard one girl who described herself as a secular Jew whose view was that one kept the Law because it was ethical to do so. She had no expectation of an afterlife, and when she found herself in one, her first thought was "I HATE being wrong!."

Also, on Moody's Life After Life video, one of the experiencers was a Russian scientist who described himsef as a dialectical materialist, believing that the body is all there is. Then he found himself in a situation he thought of was completely impossible.

Anyone can explain away NDEs. The question is whether that is the best explanation. The Light Beyond deals with some of the rationalizations of NDEs, such as Sagan's shallow attempt to describe it as a memory of being born. Sagan, a very bright man, never bothered to test his own theory, being impressed enough with his own ability to come up with rationalization to actually test it.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA