Mark Wrights Lecture

[livy111us]

For those of you who did not go, it was absolutely amazing. I saw a few people from this board as well as a bunch of FARMS scholars. Mark Wright did an excellent job in presenting parallels between the Book of Mormon and Mesoamerica. He had glyphs, stela, codex, ancient paintings, maps, etc.. with every subject. I took as many notes as I could but didn't do his lecture justice. I am sure there are some errors in my notes, but you'll get the general idea.

Finding Mesoamerica in The Book of Mormon

Doctrines of Salvation 3:73-74â??Lehi landed in Central America

Joseph Smith believed it happened in Central America

John Clarks similarities between Mesoamerica and BOM cultures

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/pdf.php?fi...p;type=amJtcw==

Change of Introduction to BOM- â??Among the ancestorsâ?, matches what was said over 80 years ago by Sjodahl in Improvement Era Dec. 1921 154-5

Would we expect to find Nephites among large groups of people?

From the Olmec 1500 BC to Aztec 1500 AD, there was a continuation of belief

Materials that are mentioned in the BOM that would be found in archaeological digs

-Metal records

-Arts of war

-Cities of cement

-Royal monuments

-Complex calendars

ONLY in Mesoamerica:

Hel. 3:15 â??But behold, there are many books and many arecords of every kindâ?

Codex found in Mesoamerica (something that could be burned)

Alma 14:8 â??and they also brought forth their records which contained the holy scriptures, and cast them into the fire also, that they might be bburned and destroyed by fire.â? And possibly Alma 12:1 â??unfold the scripturesâ?. Codex are folded

Metal records found in both the Old World and the New world. Much less gold in the New world after the Spaniards. They took everything made of gold and melted it down and shipped back to Spain. But have found a few writings on gold.

Also wrote on Jade, bone, and vessels. Would match BOMs claim that there were records of every kind.

Wrote on stone and was called Stela. Stela in Mayan is Lakam tun,meaning large stone. Omni 1:20 reads â??And it came to pass in the days of Mosiah, there was a large astone brought unto him with engravings on it; and he did binterpret the engravings by the gift and power of God.â?

Calendrics:

It came to pass in Mayan.

Utiy= â??since it came to passâ?

I-ut= â??then it came to passâ?

Utom= â??it shall come to passâ?

On one stone there were 96 glyphs, many were the â??it came to passâ? glyph. Mark Twain said if we were to take out all the â??and it came to passâ? out of the Bom, weâ??d only be left with a pamphlet. True in both Mesoamerica and the BOM

260 day calendar-tcolkâ??in is 9moons, or months

Omni 1:21 reads â??And Coriantumr was discovered by the people of Zarahemla; and he dwelt with them for the space of nine moons.â?

7 day week mentioned in Mosiah 13:18. There is a seven day week in Mesoamerica. Mentioned in Glyph Y and Z

BOM had many calendars. One starting at the time Lehi left Jerusalem, one since the begin of the reign of the judges, one since the time Christ came.

Kâ??atun=20 years. When theyâ??d hit this mark, theyâ??d erect a stone

Baktun=400 years (20 cycles of Kâ??atun) theyâ??d have a big party

Alma 45:10, Hel. 13:5, 9, Mormon 8:6, and Moroni 10:1 all are in line with these dates

Arts of war:

Swords. Alma 43:18=cimeter. That means curved sword. Shows ancient Mayan carving of warrior with curved sword

Alma 43:19 â??Moroni, had aprepared his people with bbreastplates and with arm-shields, yea, and also shields to defend their heads, and also they were dressed with thick clothingâ??â??

Shows ancient drawing of warrior holding sword and shield, wearing armor, helmet, and thick clothing.

Legs were usually left uncovered in Mesoamerica. In BOM, it mentions serious wounds to the legs.

Alma 43:20-21-â??Now the army of Zerahemnah was not prepared with any such thing; they had only their aswords and their cimeters, their bows and their arrows, their bstones and their slings; and they were cnaked, save it were a skin which was girded about their loins; yea, all were naked, save it were the Zoramites and the Amalekites;â?

Shows ancient drawing of Mayan with swords, cimeters and armor, slaying enemies in loincloths.

Alma 49:4 â??not cast their stones and their arrows at them that they might take effect,â?

How do you cast an arrow? The Mayan had a weapon called the Atlatl, which would cast arrows. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlatl

Alma 49:6 â??they had also prepared themselves with garments of skins, yea, very thick garments to cover their nakednessâ?

Shows ancient drawing of Mayan warrior dressed in animal skins for protection

Alma 14:22, bound with cords. Shows ancient drawing of prisoners being bound with cords

Mosiah 12:5, burden on ones back.

They used what is called a Tumpline to place burdens on ones back. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tump_line

Alma 53:4 â??And he caused that they should build a abreastwork of timbers upon the inner bank of the ditch; and they cast up dirt out of the ditch against the breastwork of timbers; and thus they did cause the Lamanites to labor until they had encircled the city of Bountiful round about with a strong wall of timbers and earth, to an exceeding height.â?

Shows picture of ancient Mayan city with similar fortifications. They know that there were timbers surrounding city because they found carbon remains of the posts.

Mormon 1:7 â??The whole face of the land had become covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous almost, as it were the sand of the sea.â?

El Mirador was the size of Manhatten.

3 Nephi 6:8 â??And there were many ahighways cast up, and many roads made, which led from city to city, and from land to land, and from place to place.â?

Mayans had roads called â??Sacbeâ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacbe

Cities of cement, Hel. 3:7-9. Teotihuacan dates to 1st century and was entirely composed of cement. This city was 8 square miles big.

The â??ha glyph means by the water.

In Alma 51:26, the city of Nephihah is by the water

Temples. Alma 15:7. There is a temple glyph. Temples always had alters near them for sacrifice and burnt offerings.

San Bartolo murals. In the Temple of Las Pinturas which dates to around 100 BC there are murals which were to guide on inside the Temple. There was the mural which depicted the creation, the mural which was the theme of sacrifice, and then ends with the person being anointed king.

Temple burning was symbolic destruction. (Shows Aztec manuscript depicting â??destructionâ??) Roof was held up by wood pole. When it was burned, the roof came down and signified the buildings desctruction

3 Nephit 9:10-11 chiasmus of burned with fire, destruction, destruction, burned with fire. The exact same chiasmus is found in the Dos Pilas Hieroglyphic stairway.

Fine woodwork at palaces. In Tikal, wooden lintel of ruler on throne with buckler, surrounded by serpent. Very detailed. Would be considered Fine woodwork

Ether 9:5 â??and they obtained the head of his father-in-law, as he sat upon his throne, giving audience to his people.â?

The â??Seatâ? in Mayan, means that you are king

Hel. 9:31 â??But behold, ye shall examine him, and ye shall find blood upon the skirts of his cloak.â?

Shows ancient picture of Mayan wearing long cloak. Would be hard not to get blood on.

Divine Kings were intermediateries between natural and supernatural realms.

-would talk with gods and travel back and forth through space and time

-Mosiah 3:2 taught by an angel (which would be considered to be a god by Mesoamerican standards) 1 Nephi 11-14 travel through space and time

Alma 34:11 â??Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another.â?

Kings would cut themselves and bleed onto a paper which theyâ??d burn. The smoke would rise to the heavens and appease the gods.

Mosiah 4:2 â??And they had aviewed themselves in their own bcarnal state, even cless than the dust of the earth. And they all cried aloud with one voice, saying: O have mercy, and apply the datoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins, and our hearts may be epurified; for we believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who fcreated heaven and earth, and all things; who shall come down among the children of men.â?

Doesnâ??t say who they were crying to. In Mesoamerica, it was tradition to cry unto the King, who would then cry unto the gods. He then reminds the people that he is only a man.

Alma 34:10 â??For it is expedient that there should be a great and last asacrifice; yea, not a bsacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an cinfinite and deternal esacrifice.â?

In Mesoamerica, the three most common sacrifices were man, beasts, and fowl.

Mayan cities all had their own 3 gods. Nephites wouldnâ??t have stuck out because they also had 3 Gods.

2 Nephi 2:8-9. Both the Mayan and the Nephites had traditions of a dying and resurrecting God.

Falling to the Earth as if dead. Alma 36, Alma 18:42-19:13. On deathbed, shamans soul leaves his body as if dead, goes to the heavens and gets healed and comes back to earth to teach others.

Diety impersonation. Glyphic expression is image of â?? â?? God, or the image of that god in your countenance (Alma 5:14). The Divine Kings wore literally engraven images of their gods on their faces

BEST way to know the BOM is true is in Moroni 10:3-5

Q/A

Mayans rulers boast of captives. BOM mentions exact #â??s of captives

Only

[Calm]

I very much enjoyed it. They are going to have to find another way to expand floor space (putting bookshelves on wheels was clever) though as the crowd was maxing out the space. I didn't recognize you without your camera or I would have come over and said hi.

[Rommelator]

It certainly was a fun night. Mark's presentation was very informative and entertaining.

I also was able to meet and talk with Louis Midgley, which was amazing.

Good stuff!!

[e=mc2]

DRATS I woulda loved to have attended. Hope someone videoed it. The YouTube days are here, and its time to share the good word with VISUALS, i.e. video......... GREAT notes Livvy......

[juliann]

Only

[Rotturbrain]

Any pictures of Jesus Christ in any of the Mesoamerican cities? Not that he was an important figure or anything, how about any writings talking about anything christian? I mean since the church was exactly as it is today, ie. Prophet, first presidency, 12 apostles, 70's, High priests, Stake Pres. Bishops, Elders, priets, teachers, deacons. Any sacrament of blood and bread ? Any text of the sacrament? How about the temples, any baptismal fonts? Sealing rooms? I would expect we will find the fonts first since they are pretty hard to miss.

[Calm]

Hope someone videoed it.

Didn't work out this time around, still happens on occasion even in this tech heavy world of ours (and thank goodness of that); be happy that someone took notes.

[juliann]

Any pictures of Jesus Christ in any of the Mesoamerican cities? Not that he was an important figure or anything, how about any writings talking about anything christian? I mean since the church was exactly as it is today, ie. Prophet, first presidency, 12 apostles, 70's, High priests, Stake Pres. Bishops, Elders, priets, teachers, deacons. Any sacrament of blood and bread ? Any text of the sacrament? How about the temples, any baptismal fonts? Sealing rooms? I would expect we will find the fonts first since they are pretty hard to miss.

1/2 of 1% of Mesamerican cities have been excavated and that is what you would expect? Good grief.

[poulsenll]

Any pictures of Jesus Christ in any of the Mesoamerican cities? Not that he was an important figure or anything, how about any writings talking about anything christian? I mean since the church was exactly as it is today, ie. Prophet, first presidency, 12 apostles, 70's, High priests, Stake Pres. Bishops, Elders, priets, teachers, deacons. Any sacrament of blood and bread ? Any text of the sacrament? How about the temples, any baptismal fonts? Sealing rooms? I would expect we will find the fonts first since they are pretty hard to miss.

Try this on for size.

The Quadrangle at the lower right is surrounded by an adobe wall and there are 12 small pyramids on top of three of the walls (count them). On the third eastern wall there are only 3 pyramids. Having been there myself, I can report that the middle one of the three is bigger than the other two. Although this may not be in the center of the BoM area, it certainly fits the possibility that these were thrones for 12 priests (apostles) presided over by three other priests, one of which was more important than the other two ( the first preidency).

Just my opinion. Take it for whatever worth you can find in it.

Larry P

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Any pictures of Jesus Christ in any of the Mesoamerican cities? Not that he was an important figure or anything, how about any writings talking about anything christian? I mean since the church was exactly as it is today, ie. Prophet, first presidency, 12 apostles, 70's, High priests, Stake Pres. Bishops, Elders, priets, teachers, deacons. Any sacrament of blood and bread ? Any text of the sacrament? How about the temples, any baptismal fonts? Sealing rooms? I would expect we will find the fonts first since they are pretty hard to miss.

Tell you waht. Tell me what a nephite picture of Jesus would look like and we will start looking. For that matter tell me what a Nephite anything looks like and we will start looking.

[CE Digger]

Wow thanks for the notes livy! Does anybody know of any books, videos, or websites with more info from this guy?

[juliann]

Wow thanks for the notes livy! Does anybody know of any books, videos, or websites with more info from this guy?

He will be presenting at the FAIR Conference: http://www.fairlds.org/conf08b.html#Wright

[Nemesis]

Any pictures of Jesus Christ in any of the Mesoamerican cities? Not that he was an important figure or anything, how about any writings talking about anything christian? I mean since the church was exactly as it is today, ie. Prophet, first presidency, 12 apostles, 70's, High priests, Stake Pres. Bishops, Elders, priets, teachers, deacons. Any sacrament of blood and bread ? Any text of the sacrament? How about the temples, any baptismal fonts? Sealing rooms? I would expect we will find the fonts first since they are pretty hard to miss.

No sockpuppets. Goodbye.

[Brant Gardner]

Wow thanks for the notes livy! Does anybody know of any books, videos, or websites with more info from this guy?

I suspect that you will be hearing more from him in the future. I know that he has at least two papers he is presenting this year (one at th FAIR conference). However, we had better not hear too much from him until the dissertation is done (Mark, if you see this, shame on you and get back to work on it!)

[livy111us]

He was saying at the lecture that once his dissertation is done, and gets settled in a good job, he will write everything down. I look forward to it!

[flex]

For those of you who did not go, it was absolutely amazing. I saw a few people from this board as well as a bunch of FARMS scholars. Mark Wright did an excellent job in presenting parallels between the Book of Mormon and Mesoamerica. He had glyphs, stela, codex, ancient paintings, maps, etc.. with every subject. I took as many notes as I could but didn't do his lecture justice. I am sure there are some errors in my notes, but you'll get the general idea.

Finding Mesoamerica in The Book of Mormon

Doctrines of Salvation 3:73-74â??Lehi landed in Central America

Joseph Smith believed it happened in Central America

John Clarks similarities between Mesoamerica and BOM cultures

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/pdf.php?fi...p;type=amJtcw==

Change of Introduction to BOM- â??Among the ancestorsâ?, matches what was said over 80 years ago by Sjodahl in Improvement Era Dec. 1921 154-5

Would we expect to find Nephites among large groups of people?

From the Olmec 1500 BC to Aztec 1500 AD, there was a continuation of belief

Materials that are mentioned in the BOM that would be found in archaeological digs

-Metal records

-Arts of war

-Cities of cement

-Royal monuments

-Complex calendars

ONLY in Mesoamerica:

Hel. 3:15 â??But behold, there are many books and many arecords of every kindâ?

Codex found in Mesoamerica (something that could be burned)

Alma 14:8 â??and they also brought forth their records which contained the holy scriptures, and cast them into the fire also, that they might be bburned and destroyed by fire.â? And possibly Alma 12:1 â??unfold the scripturesâ?. Codex are folded

Metal records found in both the Old World and the New world. Much less gold in the New world after the Spaniards. They took everything made of gold and melted it down and shipped back to Spain. But have found a few writings on gold.

Also wrote on Jade, bone, and vessels. Would match BOMs claim that there were records of every kind.

Wrote on stone and was called Stela. Stela in Mayan is Lakam tun,meaning large stone. Omni 1:20 reads â??And it came to pass in the days of Mosiah, there was a large astone brought unto him with engravings on it; and he did binterpret the engravings by the gift and power of God.â?

Calendrics:

It came to pass in Mayan.

Utiy= â??since it came to passâ?

I-ut= â??then it came to passâ?

Utom= â??it shall come to passâ?

On one stone there were 96 glyphs, many were the â??it came to passâ? glyph. Mark Twain said if we were to take out all the â??and it came to passâ? out of the Bom, weâ??d only be left with a pamphlet. True in both Mesoamerica and the BOM

260 day calendar-tcolkâ??in is 9moons, or months

Omni 1:21 reads â??And Coriantumr was discovered by the people of Zarahemla; and he dwelt with them for the space of nine moons.â?

7 day week mentioned in Mosiah 13:18. There is a seven day week in Mesoamerica. Mentioned in Glyph Y and Z

BOM had many calendars. One starting at the time Lehi left Jerusalem, one since the begin of the reign of the judges, one since the time Christ came.

Kâ??atun=20 years. When theyâ??d hit this mark, theyâ??d erect a stone

Baktun=400 years (20 cycles of Kâ??atun) theyâ??d have a big party

Alma 45:10, Hel. 13:5, 9, Mormon 8:6, and Moroni 10:1 all are in line with these dates

Arts of war:

Swords. Alma 43:18=cimeter. That means curved sword. Shows ancient Mayan carving of warrior with curved sword

Alma 43:19 â??Moroni, had aprepared his people with bbreastplates and with arm-shields, yea, and also shields to defend their heads, and also they were dressed with thick clothingâ??â??

Shows ancient drawing of warrior holding sword and shield, wearing armor, helmet, and thick clothing.

Legs were usually left uncovered in Mesoamerica. In BOM, it mentions serious wounds to the legs.

Alma 43:20-21-â??Now the army of Zerahemnah was not prepared with any such thing; they had only their aswords and their cimeters, their bows and their arrows, their bstones and their slings; and they were cnaked, save it were a skin which was girded about their loins; yea, all were naked, save it were the Zoramites and the Amalekites;â?

Shows ancient drawing of Mayan with swords, cimeters and armor, slaying enemies in loincloths.

Alma 49:4 â??not cast their stones and their arrows at them that they might take effect,â?

How do you cast an arrow? The Mayan had a weapon called the Atlatl, which would cast arrows. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlatl

Alma 49:6 â??they had also prepared themselves with garments of skins, yea, very thick garments to cover their nakednessâ?

Shows ancient drawing of Mayan warrior dressed in animal skins for protection

Alma 14:22, bound with cords. Shows ancient drawing of prisoners being bound with cords

Mosiah 12:5, burden on ones back.

They used what is called a Tumpline to place burdens on ones back. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tump_line

Alma 53:4 â??And he caused that they should build a abreastwork of timbers upon the inner bank of the ditch; and they cast up dirt out of the ditch against the breastwork of timbers; and thus they did cause the Lamanites to labor until they had encircled the city of Bountiful round about with a strong wall of timbers and earth, to an exceeding height.â?

Shows picture of ancient Mayan city with similar fortifications. They know that there were timbers surrounding city because they found carbon remains of the posts.

Mormon 1:7 â??The whole face of the land had become covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous almost, as it were the sand of the sea.â?

El Mirador was the size of Manhatten.

3 Nephi 6:8 â??And there were many ahighways cast up, and many roads made, which led from city to city, and from land to land, and from place to place.â?

Mayans had roads called â??Sacbeâ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacbe

Cities of cement, Hel. 3:7-9. Teotihuacan dates to 1st century and was entirely composed of cement. This city was 8 square miles big.

The â??ha glyph means by the water.

In Alma 51:26, the city of Nephihah is by the water

Temples. Alma 15:7. There is a temple glyph. Temples always had alters near them for sacrifice and burnt offerings.

San Bartolo murals. In the Temple of Las Pinturas which dates to around 100 BC there are murals which were to guide on inside the Temple. There was the mural which depicted the creation, the mural which was the theme of sacrifice, and then ends with the person being anointed king.

Temple burning was symbolic destruction. (Shows Aztec manuscript depicting â??destructionâ??) Roof was held up by wood pole. When it was burned, the roof came down and signified the buildings desctruction

3 Nephit 9:10-11 chiasmus of burned with fire, destruction, destruction, burned with fire. The exact same chiasmus is found in the Dos Pilas Hieroglyphic stairway.

Fine woodwork at palaces. In Tikal, wooden lintel of ruler on throne with buckler, surrounded by serpent. Very detailed. Would be considered Fine woodwork

Ether 9:5 â??and they obtained the head of his father-in-law, as he sat upon his throne, giving audience to his people.â?

The â??Seatâ? in Mayan, means that you are king

Hel. 9:31 â??But behold, ye shall examine him, and ye shall find blood upon the skirts of his cloak.â?

Shows ancient picture of Mayan wearing long cloak. Would be hard not to get blood on.

Divine Kings were intermediateries between natural and supernatural realms.

-would talk with gods and travel back and forth through space and time

-Mosiah 3:2 taught by an angel (which would be considered to be a god by Mesoamerican standards) 1 Nephi 11-14 travel through space and time

Alma 34:11 â??Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another.â?

Kings would cut themselves and bleed onto a paper which theyâ??d burn. The smoke would rise to the heavens and appease the gods.

Mosiah 4:2 â??And they had aviewed themselves in their own bcarnal state, even cless than the dust of the earth. And they all cried aloud with one voice, saying: O have mercy, and apply the datoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins, and our hearts may be epurified; for we believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who fcreated heaven and earth, and all things; who shall come down among the children of men.â?

Doesnâ??t say who they were crying to. In Mesoamerica, it was tradition to cry unto the King, who would then cry unto the gods. He then reminds the people that he is only a man.

Alma 34:10 â??For it is expedient that there should be a great and last asacrifice; yea, not a bsacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an cinfinite and deternal esacrifice.â?

In Mesoamerica, the three most common sacrifices were man, beasts, and fowl.

Mayan cities all had their own 3 gods. Nephites wouldnâ??t have stuck out because they also had 3 Gods.

2 Nephi 2:8-9. Both the Mayan and the Nephites had traditions of a dying and resurrecting God.

Falling to the Earth as if dead. Alma 36, Alma 18:42-19:13. On deathbed, shamans soul leaves his body as if dead, goes to the heavens and gets healed and comes back to earth to teach others.

Diety impersonation. Glyphic expression is image of â?? â?? God, or the image of that god in your countenance (Alma 5:14). The Divine Kings wore literally engraven images of their gods on their faces

BEST way to know the BOM is true is in Moroni 10:3-5

Q/A

Mayans rulers boast of captives. BOM mentions exact #â??s of captives

Only

[Bill Hamblin]

He was saying at the lecture that once his dissertation is done, and gets settled in a good job, he will write everything down. I look forward to it!

It was a very interesting lecture.

The best part, however, was after everyone left. We cast atlatls at anti-Mormons hiding in the trees.

PS Finish the dissertation!!!

[Brant Gardner]

i cant see one single shred of distinct evidence of bom claims in above notes.

It must be in the way you are looking. Most of us saw quite a bit.

the scope of the population claimed by the bom would most certainly render artifacts unique to bom history

Fascinating assertion. I have spent quite a bit of time trying to define just what a Book of Mormon artifact would look like. Based on anthropological and historical principles, I can't see any other conclusion than that Book of Mormon material culture should have looked very much like surrounding culture, much as early Christianity appeared, in its material culture, quite Greek (including borrowing images and icons from the Greeks).

Would you mind explaining your hypothesis? I'd love to know where I have missed.

(whats so unique about big cities by the water, war, kings and calendars, etc ?)

It appears that you don't know the context in which those things were discussed, or perhaps misunderstand how the raw artifacts of archaeology are interpreted. By themselves, such things are not all that impressive. However, the correlation of the locations and times, the mentions in the text and the similarities of cultural context are all very impressive. There is more evidence of a non-coincidental nature for the Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica than was used to label the now-accepted location of Troy.

if only very small numbers of vikings can leave artifacts centuries prior to the bom time line, surely millions of lehites and lamanites can 600 years later.

Interesting idea. I am guessing that you borrowed it from somewhere, because you don't appear to understand the vast differences between the two. First, the Lehites entered a highly populated land, the Vikings into a sparsely populated one. The nature of the Lehite story tells us that there had to be population merges with locals. That creates cultural (and genetic) intermixing. The Vikings remained apart. With the separation there were differences that could be noticed. Where there was a cultural adaptation, there wouldn't be as much. The Vikings left and never stayed. The Lehites not only stayed, they built, and built on top of places where they had been, destroying and burying much of what they had done before.

The comparison is nice, unless you actually look at it.

[consiglieri]

i cant see one single shred of distinct evidence of bom claims in above notes.

the scope of the population claimed by the bom would most certainly render artifacts unique to bom history (whats so unique about big cities by the water, war, kings and calendars, etc ?) - even in only 1/2 of one percent of excavated sites (which i have a hard time believing this number). if only very small numbers of vikings can leave artifacts centuries prior to the bom time line, surely millions of lehites and lamanites can 600 years later.

Why would we expect to find baptismal fonts in an area awash in lakes and rivers?

And what, I wonder, could we tell about Viking religious beliefs and culture from the bare artifacts they left behind?

Viking artifacts from centuries before the Book of Mormon timeline? I take it you mean from someplace other than Newfoundland.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[stn9]

Was it taped? Can we expect a YouTube posting of the lecture? Pretty please? (With sugar on top...)

[USU78]

Why would we expect to find baptismal fonts in an area awash in lakes and rivers?

And what, I wonder, could we tell about Viking religious beliefs and culture from the bare artifacts they left behind?

Viking artifacts from centuries before the Book of Mormon timeline? I take it you mean from someplace other than Newfoundland.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

It's astonishing how many are so ignorant of so much history.

Going viking was a passtime, quasi-religious in nature, during the period from about 800-1100 C.E., of a small percentage of the populace of Scandinavia.

The Normans [fr. North + Men] were one particularly organized and, therefore, successful group.

USU "Who Knew Thunar and Woden Before it was Cool" 78

[Marmonboy]

To those who don't see any direct evidence:

Maybe there isn't any DIRECT evidence. But the circumstantial evidence is piling up in heaps. People sit on death row on the basis of less circumstantial evidence than there is for the Book of Mormon.

(I missed the lecture--you people gotta start telling me of these things!)

[consiglieri]

People sit on death row on the basis of less circumstantial evidence than there is for the Book of Mormon.

Now that is a classic line I must remember!

[John Williams]

To those who don't see any direct evidence:

Maybe there isn't any DIRECT evidence. But the circumstantial evidence is piling up in heaps. People sit on death row on the basis of less circumstantial evidence than there is for the Book of Mormon.

(I missed the lecture--you people gotta start telling me of these things!)

Circumstantial evidence becomes important when there is no evidence to refute it. These little tidbits are impressive support for Book of Mormon authenticity as long as you completely ignore the evidence to the contrary. It's like saying "Mesoamerica is the only place that fits for the Book of Mormon, as long as you ignore the horses and chariots and steel and anachronistic Isaiah quotes and so on."

[Brant Gardner]

It's like saying "Mesoamerica is the only place that fits for the Book of Mormon, as long as you ignore the horses and chariots and steel and anachronistic Isaiah quotes and so on."

If anyone ignored those arguments, I would agree with you. Since it isn't true, I cannot.