Columbus Is Coming.

[consiglieri]

I have been a member of the Church for almost 30-years now, and whenever we speak of Christopher Columbus in the Church, which usually comes up when we are talking about 1 Nephi 13, it has always been in reverent tones.

Lots of other voices are heard that are pretty harsh on Columbus and all the bad stuff he brought to the new world.

I was listening to a medical radio show last weekend where the doctor was saying a new study was out linking Columbus to the introduction of syphillus.

Well, I thought, just another liberal doctor willing to heap more bad stuff on Chris.

So, it was in this frame of mind that I read 1 Nephi 13 in preparation for gospel doctrine class.

All of a sudden, it leaped off the page at me that the character generally understood as Columbus is introduced with the statement: "Behold the wrath of God is upon the seed of thy brethren."

From this, it looks like the Book of Mormon itself views Christopher Columbus as being the source of a lot of bad mojo on the Indians. On the other hand, the Book of Mormon doesn't seem to have anything particularly good to say about him.

Any thoughts?

--Consiglieri

1 Nephi 13:10 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld many waters; and they divided the Gentiles from the seed of my brethren.

11 And it came to pass that the angel said unto me: Behold the wrath of God is upon the seed of thy brethren.

12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Apparently, this less-than-perfect-man was "wrought upon" by the Holy Ghost. Does that make him an immediate Saint? No more than it did Joseph Smith.

[Zakuska]

Along these same lines... the history channel last night was talking about a french guy who landed in florida and went trecking around the souther states with his horses and 300 pigs. He ran itno this huge indian village surrounded by motes and bullworks. He reported that the population had to be some where in the 12,000s. Well he left and went back to france with all his treasures. 70 years later when other explorers found the same village it was deserted. They where speculating about the french explorers pigs probably giving the locals and their animals deseases.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I have been a member of the Church for almost 30-years now, and whenever we speak of Christopher Columbus in the Church, which usually comes up when we are talking about 1 Nephi 13, it has always been in reverent tones.

Lots of other voices are heard that are pretty harsh on Columbus and all the bad stuff he brought to the new world.

I was listening to a medical radio show last weekend where the doctor was saying a new study was out linking Columbus to the introduction of syphillus.

Well, I thought, just another liberal doctor willing to heap more bad stuff on Chris.

So, it was in this frame of mind that I read 1 Nephi 13 in preparation for gospel doctrine class.

All of a sudden, it leaped off the page at me that the character generally understood as Columbus is introduced with the statement: "Behold the wrath of God is upon the seed of thy brethren."

From this, it looks like the Book of Mormon itself views Christopher Columbus as being the source of a lot of bad mojo on the Indians. On the other hand, the Book of Mormon doesn't seem to have anything particularly good to say about him.

Any thoughts?

--Consiglieri

Now that is deep...may I quote you sunday?

[Mark Beesley]

Whenever I read or hear 21st Century critics taking historical figures to task, I simply shrug it off as modernistic elitism, as if the norms of our culture are somehow superior to earlier cultures. I don't doubt that Christopher Columbus, Thomas Jefferson, and Joseph Smith would be considered moral dogs by 21st Century Western Civilization standards. And yet the Lord was able to inspire all of them to do great things. Perhaps if we shed ourselves our our holier-than-thou hypocrisy we could actually find ourselves able to support people in politics who have the capacity and willingness to do great things . . . whoops, I guess we tried that and the Republicans impeached him.

[consiglieri]

Now that is deep...may I quote you sunday?

With proper attribution and a modest royalty . . . certainly.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Zakuska]

1 Tim 5

18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

[Loquacious Lurker]

Christopher Columbus accidentally bumped into a Caribbean island off the coast of a continent that had ALREADY been visited five hundred years before him by Viking settlers. He immediately enslaved members of the native population, dragging them back to Spain in chains, where they lived out the rest of their dismal and broken existence as slaves. The rest of the population that didn't immediately flee he and his men terrorized, raped, exploited, and infected with illnesses they had no natural immunity to. He then returned on two subsequent voyages to repeat exactly the same behavior in his unquenchable quest for gold, despite the human cost.

... and for this we celebrate him...?

[Stargazer]

Along these same lines... the history channel last night was talking about a french guy who landed in florida and went trecking around the souther states with his horses and 300 pigs. He ran itno this huge indian village surrounded by motes and bullworks. He reported that the population had to be some where in the 12,000s. Well he left and went back to france with all his treasures. 70 years later when other explorers found the same village it was deserted. They where speculating about the french explorers pigs probably giving the locals and their animals deseases.

The book 1491 spoke much along the same lines of the entire population of the Americas just before the arrival of the Europeans. A most excellent book, by the way, which I recommend.

One thing that I found interesting is that the native population of the Americas at the time of Columbus was way way more than was commonly accepted, but because this disease problem the Europeans brought with them caused huge die-offs, and most of the people who died never so much as heard of white men, let alone seen any. It makes the large counts of battle deaths among the Nephites, Lamanites and Jaredites much more plausible, too, by the way.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Christopher Columbus accidentally bumped into a Caribbean island off the coast of a continent that had ALREADY been visited five hundred years before him by Viking settlers. He immediately enslaved members of the native population, dragging them back to Spain in chains, where they lived out the rest of their dismal and broken existence as slaves. The rest of the population that didn't immediately flee he and his men terrorized, raped, exploited, and infected with illnesses they had no natural immunity to. He then returned on two subsequent voyages to repeat exactly the same behavior in his unquenchable quest for gold, despite the human cost.

... and for this we celebrate him...?

Total Anti-Columbite.

[Avatar4321]

I have been a member of the Church for almost 30-years now, and whenever we speak of Christopher Columbus in the Church, which usually comes up when we are talking about 1 Nephi 13, it has always been in reverent tones.

Lots of other voices are heard that are pretty harsh on Columbus and all the bad stuff he brought to the new world.

I was listening to a medical radio show last weekend where the doctor was saying a new study was out linking Columbus to the introduction of syphillus.

Well, I thought, just another liberal doctor willing to heap more bad stuff on Chris.

So, it was in this frame of mind that I read 1 Nephi 13 in preparation for gospel doctrine class.

All of a sudden, it leaped off the page at me that the character generally understood as Columbus is introduced with the statement: "Behold the wrath of God is upon the seed of thy brethren."

From this, it looks like the Book of Mormon itself views Christopher Columbus as being the source of a lot of bad mojo on the Indians. On the other hand, the Book of Mormon doesn't seem to have anything particularly good to say about him.

Any thoughts?

--Consiglieri

Yeah, you have a problem with your theory. Syphillus was a New World disease. Columbus and his men brought it to Europe.

The diseases taken to the new world were far worse. of course none of these exchanges were purposeful.

[redwave]

I have been a member of the Church for almost 30-years now, and whenever we speak of Christopher Columbus in the Church, which usually comes up when we are talking about 1 Nephi 13, it has always been in reverent tones.

Lots of other voices are heard that are pretty harsh on Columbus and all the bad stuff he brought to the new world.

I was listening to a medical radio show last weekend where the doctor was saying a new study was out linking Columbus to the introduction of syphillus.

Well, I thought, just another liberal doctor willing to heap more bad stuff on Chris.

So, it was in this frame of mind that I read 1 Nephi 13 in preparation for gospel doctrine class.

All of a sudden, it leaped off the page at me that the character generally understood as Columbus is introduced with the statement: "Behold the wrath of God is upon the seed of thy brethren."

From this, it looks like the Book of Mormon itself views Christopher Columbus as being the source of a lot of bad mojo on the Indians. On the other hand, the Book of Mormon doesn't seem to have anything particularly good to say about him.

Any thoughts?

--Consiglieri

It is in prophesy. Reavelation and Daniel will explain it. The beast rising up out of the earth, notice the other beasts rise up out of the sea.

[redwave]

I have been a member of the Church for almost 30-years now, and whenever we speak of Christopher Columbus in the Church, which usually comes up when we are talking about 1 Nephi 13, it has always been in reverent tones.

Lots of other voices are heard that are pretty harsh on Columbus and all the bad stuff he brought to the new world.

I was listening to a medical radio show last weekend where the doctor was saying a new study was out linking Columbus to the introduction of syphillus.

Well, I thought, just another liberal doctor willing to heap more bad stuff on Chris.

So, it was in this frame of mind that I read 1 Nephi 13 in preparation for gospel doctrine class.

All of a sudden, it leaped off the page at me that the character generally understood as Columbus is introduced with the statement: "Behold the wrath of God is upon the seed of thy brethren."

From this, it looks like the Book of Mormon itself views Christopher Columbus as being the source of a lot of bad mojo on the Indians. On the other hand, the Book of Mormon doesn't seem to have anything particularly good to say about him.

Any thoughts?

--Consiglieri

From Chief Seattle to the President of the United States in 1852

"The President in Washington sends word that he wishes to buy our land. But how can you buy or sell the sky? The land? The idea is strange to us. If we do not own the freshness of the air and the sparkle of the water, how can you sell them?

Every part of this earth is sacred to my people. Every shining, pine needle, every humming insect. All are holy in the memory and experience of my people.

We know the sap which courses through the trees as we know the blood that courses through our veins. We are part of the earth and it is part of us. The perfumed flowers are our sisters. The bear, the deer, the great eagle, these are our brothers. The rocky crests, the juices in the meadow, the body heat of a pony, and man, all belong to the same family.

The shining water that moves in the streams and rivers is not just water, but the blood of our ancestors. If we sell you our land, you must remember that it is sacred. Each ghostly reflection in the clear waters of the lakes tells of events and memories in the life of my people. The waters murmur in the voice of my father's father.

The rivers ore our brothers. They quench our thirst. They carry our canoes and feed our children. So you must give to the river the kindness you would give any brother.

If we sell you our land, remember that the air is precious to us, that the air shares its spirit with all the life it supports. The wind that gave our grandfather his first breath also receives his last sigh. The wind also gives our children the spirit of life. So if we sell you our land, you must keep it apart and sacred, as a place where man can go to taste the wind that is sweetened by the meadow Flowers.

Will you teach your children what we have taught our children? That the earth is our Mother? What befalls the earth befalls all the sons of the earth.

This we know: The earth does not belong to man, man belongs to the earth. All things are connected like the blood that unites us all. Man did not weave the web of life; he is merely a strand of it. Whatever he does to the web, he does to himself.

One thing we know: Our God is your God. The earth is precious to him and to harm the earth is to heap contempt on its Creator. Your destiny is a mystery to us. What will happen when the buffalo are all slaughtered? The wild horses tamed? What will happen when the secret corners of the forest are heavy with the scent of many men and the view of the ripe hills is blotted by talking wires? Where will the thicket be? Gone! Where will the eagle be? Gone! And what is it to say goodbye to the swift pony and the hunt? The end of living and the beginning of survival.

When the last red man has vanished with his wilderness and his memory is only the shadow of a cloud moving across the prairie, will these shores and forests still be here? Will there be any of the spirit of my people left?

We love this earth as a newborn loves its mother's heartbeat. So if we sell you our land, love it as we have loved it. Care for it as we have cared for it. Hold in your mind the memory of the land as it is when you receive it. Preserve the land for all children and love it, as God loves us all.

As we are a part of the land, you too are part of the land. This earth is precious to us. It is also precious to you. One thing we know: There is only one God. No man, be he Red Man, or White Man, Can be apart.

We Are All Brothers"

[Loquacious Lurker]

Total Anti-Columbite.

If I were to murder, rape, enslave and infect, but happened to ALSO accidentally discover something I wasn't even looking for, that would make everything else I did okay?

No, I didn't think so....

[Loquacious Lurker]

Also, Chief Seattle never made that speech. From Snopes:

"Though undeniably beautiful, the preceeding speech is not even remotely authentic. Rather than issuing from the very real Chief Seattle in 1854, those moving words were written by a screenwriter in 1971."

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/seattle.asp

I'm like the skunk at the garden party today, aren't I?

We should have our heros. We should just make sure they actually ARE heros, not glorified revisionist history god-men who don't deserve the pedestals they're squating on.

[Truth]

Christopher Columbus accidentally bumped into a Caribbean island off the coast of a continent that had ALREADY been visited five hundred years before him by Viking settlers. He immediately enslaved members of the native population, dragging them back to Spain in chains, where they lived out the rest of their dismal and broken existence as slaves. The rest of the population that didn't immediately flee he and his men terrorized, raped, exploited, and infected with illnesses they had no natural immunity to. He then returned on two subsequent voyages to repeat exactly the same behavior in his unquenchable quest for gold, despite the human cost.

... and for this we celebrate him...?

As opposed to the native and indian population so often reverenced and looked to. Nope, they did not rape, murder, pillage, enslave, practice cannabalism, practice human sacrifice, or anything.

[LifeOnaPlate]

If I were to murder, rape, enslave and infect, but happened to ALSO accidentally discover something I wasn't even looking for, that would make everything else I did okay?

No, I didn't think so....

Would it have helped if I had included one of these:

[markwhannig]

From this, it looks like the Book of Mormon itself views Christopher Columbus as being the source of a lot of bad mojo on the Indians. On the other hand, the Book of Mormon doesn't seem to have anything particularly good to say about him.

Any thoughts?

--Consiglieri

I agree that Columbus "discoverying" the Americas may have been a blessing for the Gentiles [Europeans], but it was all-in-all "the wrath of God" for the indigenous peoples of America, at least for first 500 years of the two worlds colliding.

I also cite 1 Nephi 13:14 "and I beheld the wrath of God, that it as upon the seed of my brethern; and they were scattered before the Gentiles and were smitten." And 1 Nephi 13:18 "and also that the wrath of God was upon all those [i interpret this as Mother Gentiles and Seed of Lehi] that were gathered together against them [the humble Gentiles who came out of captivity] to battle."

You can apply the same blessing/wrath metaphor to places all over the world where colonizers exploited/brought the wrath to indigenous peoples: Africa, Austrialia, India, S.E. Asia. Europeaners weren't the only colonizing people in history either. American Indigenous groups brought wrath on each other well outside any "Gentile" influence. It seems to me that indigenous African groups are each other's own worst enemies for the most part.

I believe that Nephi was using the best language he had to describe the impact of European immigrants on American Indigineous populations. The diseases brought by the Europeans, the technology, the domesticated animals, the sense of "Capitalism:" the Indians didn't stand a chance.

But the story doesn't end there. The "Seed of the Brothers of Nephi" can take heart in what Christ said in 3 Nephi 20:15-16 "And I say unto you, that if the Gentiles do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive, after they have scattered my people -- Then shall ye, who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many; and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as young lion among the flocks of sheep . . ." See also 3 Nephi 21: 12 "And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest . . . (v.14) Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots."

Just my opinion, but I think the immigration issues that we face today -- many Latin Americans flooding into the United States -- may be the beginning of the house of Jacob becoming a lion. Again, my opinion: the only thing that will save the Gentile is repenting and as 3 Nephi 21:22 says, "they [the Gentiles] shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for thier inheritance."

The way I read the Book of Mormon it's quite clear that the Gentile must be numbered among the remnant of Jacob, not vice versa. If ya want to engage Mitt Romney in substantive application of his religous beliefs to his politics, ask him how he would reconcile these Book of Mormon passages with his proposed immigration policy.

Respectfully,

Mark Hannig

[SquarePeg48]

I agree that Columbus "discoverying" the Americas may have been a blessing for the Gentiles [Europeans], but it was all-in-all "the wrath of God" for the indigenous peoples of America, at least for first 500 years of the two worlds colliding.

I also cite 1 Nephi 13:14 "and I beheld the wrath of God, that it as upon the seed of my brethern; and they were scattered before the Gentiles and were smitten." And 1 Nephi 13:18 "and also that the wrath of God was upon all those [i interpret this as Mother Gentiles and Seed of Lehi] that were gathered together against them [the humble Gentiles who came out of captivity] to battle."

You can apply the same blessing/wrath metaphor to places all over the world where colonizers exploited/brought the wrath to indigenous peoples: Africa, Austrialia, India, S.E. Asia. Europeaners weren't the only colonizing people in history either. American Indigenous groups brought wrath on each other well outside any "Gentile" influence. It seems to me that indigenous African groups are each other's own worst enemies for the most part.

I believe that Nephi was using the best language he had to describe the impact of European immigrants on American Indigineous populations. The diseases brought by the Europeans, the technology, the domesticated animals, the sense of "Capitalism:" the Indians didn't stand a chance.

But the story doesn't end there. The "Seed of the Brothers of Nephi" can take heart in what Christ said in 3 Nephi 20:15-16 "And I say unto you, that if the Gentiles do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive, after they have scattered my people -- Then shall ye, who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many; and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as young lion among the flocks of sheep . . ." See also 3 Nephi 21: 12 "And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest . . . (v.14) Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots."

Just my opinion, but I think the immigration issues that we face today -- many Latin Americans flooding into the United States -- may be the beginning of the house of Jacob becoming a lion. Again, my opinion: the only thing that will save the Gentile is repenting and as 3 Nephi 21:22 says, "they [the Gentiles] shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for thier inheritance."

The way I read the Book of Mormon it's quite clear that the Gentile must be numbered among the remnant of Jacob, not vice versa. If ya want to engage Mitt Romney in substantive application of his religous beliefs to his politics, ask him how he would reconcile these Book of Mormon passages with his proposed immigration policy.

Respectfully,

Mark Hannig

Mark, this is interesting in light of the immigration thread running here also. I also like the Savior's quote in 3 Nephi 20:15-16, which I posted there as well; those verses suggest to me that if the Gentiles who have become the dominant power in this land are not willing to accept the gospel and repent, the native inhabitants will go among them "as a lion" and destroy. Isn't that pretty much what we see today with the native populations moving from the poverty-stricken nations of Latin America to grab their share of the wealth here (along with bringing with them violence and an extreme amount of rage toward the "Gringo".)

[cdowis]

I was listening to a medical radio show last weekend where the doctor was saying a new study was out linking Columbus to the introduction of syphilis.

This is another myth.

New evidence indicates that syphilis was in the New World prior to Columbus.

"Using these criteria, they examined 687 skeletons from archaeological sites in the United States and Ecuador ranging in age from 400 to 6,000 years. Populations to the south (New Mexico, Florida, and Ecuador) proved to have syphilis, while those to the north (Ohio, Illinois, and Virginia) had yaws. By contrast, examination of 1,000 Old World skeletons dated to before contact with the New World revealed no cases of syphilis. This suggests that syphilis was first present in the New World and was later brought to the Old World."

http://www.archaeology.org/9701/newsbriefs/syphilis.html

[SquarePeg48]

This is another myth.

New evidence indicates that syphilis was in the New World prior to Columbus.

Actually, syphilis was a New World disease introduced to the Old World by the immorality and violence of the Spaniards--after all, there's only one way to get it at that point in history! However, gonnorhea was brought by the Europeans (along with smallpox, measles, and many other diseases) to the Natives...ain't sharing grand?

[Zakuska]

Well... That brings an intresting twist to the OP.

1 Nephi 13:10 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld many waters; and they divided the Gentiles from the seed of my brethren.

11 And it came to pass that the angel said unto me: Behold the wrath of God is upon the seed of thy brethren.

12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.

[cdowis]

Mark, this is interesting in light of the immigration thread running here also. I also like the Savior's quote in 3 Nephi 20:15-16, which I posted there as well; those verses suggest to me that if the Gentiles who have become the dominant power in this land are not willing to accept the gospel and repent, the native inhabitants will go among them "as a lion" and destroy. Isn't that pretty much what we see today with the native populations moving from the poverty-stricken nations of Latin America to grab their share of the wealth here (along with bringing with them violence and an extreme amount of rage toward the "Gringo".)

I have another interpretation == the drug trade bringing drugs from Mexico and Columbia.

[Loquacious Lurker]

As opposed to the native and indian population so often reverenced and looked to. Nope, they did not rape, murder, pillage, enslave, practice cannabalism, practice human sacrifice, or anything.

Wow. It sounds like you got your moral compass too close to a magnet or something, 'cuz them arrows, they are a-spinnin' all crazy-like.

Let me get this straight. It's okay, it somehow lessens the impact of what Columbus did, if the Indians were violent and lawless people already?

Yeah right.

Guess what? And here's a little homily from the hell-bound atheist in the room, whose moral compass, strangely enough, seems to be functioning just fine without the help of Bronze Age cosmological myths and pedandtic religious demagoguery. Are you ready?

It's not okay to hurt, terrorize, or exploit people, regardless of how bad these people might already be.

That is all.

[Loquacious Lurker]

Would it have helped if I had included one of these:

Yeah, a lot! Mwah!