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Columbus Is Coming.


consiglieri

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You are absolutely right.

But do the excesses of the invaders absolve Native groups from their sins? 20th century Political Correctness has all-too-often done exactly that.

And I personally am not in the bash-Columbus faction. He may not have been perfect, but he is also not personally responsible for all the terrible things that happened to Native Americans in later years. Most of the mayhem was caused by later people, for which Columbus cannot be blamed.

Beowulf

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Guess what? And here's a little homily from the hell-bound atheist in the room, whose moral compass, strangely enough, seems to be functioning just fine without the help of Bronze Age cosmological myths and pedandtic religious demagoguery. Are you ready?

I don't think trading bad for bad is a good idea, as you point out, but you came across as pretty rude and conceited in this little rant, for what it's worth.

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But do the excesses of the invaders absolve Native groups from their sins? 20th century Political Correctness has all-too-often done exactly that.

It's not okay for one culture to overrun, exploit, and enslave another culture. Period. For you fans of presentism, it was not okay at that time, and it is not okay now. End of story.

Whatever Indians did, or did not do, it does not matter. It is immaterial to the fact that, out of the blue, a far-advanced culture descended upon theirs with the sole aim of stripping them of anything of value that they had.

And I personally am not in the bash-Columbus faction. He may not have been perfect, but he is also not personally responsible for all the terrible things that happened to Native Americans in later years. Most of the mayhem was caused by later people, for which Columbus cannot be blamed.

I'm blaming Columbus for the rape, murder, enslavement and infection that occurred during the voyages he made to the Americas. Whatever else that followed is on the heads of those who committed it.

That is why the Lord said that He uses the wicked to punish the wicked.

Please explain why babies and small children deserve to die.

I don't think trading bad for bad is a good idea, as you point out, but you came across as pretty rude and conceited in this little rant, for what it's worth.

You'd probably like me in real life. :P

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The way I see it, Columbus, and those that came after him, did nothing more or less than what native americans were doing all along. Native Americans were fighting and killing each other over territory and hunting grounds long before the white man ever came along. Some tribes were more warlike than others, but wars happened, and to the victors went the spoils.

Columbus opened the door for the tide of europeans that followed. Like an invading force they conquered the indiginous peoples and took the spoils.

Columbus and the white man gets villified because they did the same thing that was being done all along, only this time it wasn't another tribe that was the victor.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the native american peoples were treated fairly, but neither do I think they were all the romanticized innocent victims that lived in peace and harmony with everyone else.

The plight of native americans is a sad one indeed, but was foretold in the BoM.

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Then there's the whaling ships with their crews that took disease to the south sea islands... if nothing more than colds, measles, and yes some STDs, etc. The islanders did not have immunity and many lost their lives...

Garden Girl

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Columbus and the white man gets villified because they did the same thing that was being done all along, only this time it wasn't another tribe that was the victor.

That's not altogether different from saying that, because of the U.S. casualties inflicted on innocent civilians in Dresden and Nagasaki during WWII, the events of September 11th should not be overblown, because hey, "they did the same thing that was being done all along".

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That's not altogether different from saying that, because of the U.S. casualties inflicted on innocent civilians in Dresden and Nagasaki during WWII, the events of September 11th should not be overblown, because hey, "they did the same thing that was being done all along".

That's debateable. I think drawing that paralell would be a stretch. For instance, Dresden and Nagasaki were done in the midst of a declared war, nation against nation. Also, Dresden and Nagasaki were part of the agressor nations, and the allied forces involved were trying to end the war.

Sept. 11th, was not part of a declared war, it was not nation against nation, and the purpose of it was not to end a war, but to instill terror in America for fanatical religious purposes.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make was that there were wars, killings and taking of another's lands before Columbus came along. Columbus didn't do much of any of that, he just opened the door for other Europeans to come in and conquer.

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Christopher Columbus accidentally bumped into a Caribbean island off the coast of a continent that had ALREADY been visited five hundred years before him by Viking settlers. He immediately enslaved members of the native population, dragging them back to Spain in chains, where they lived out the rest of their dismal and broken existence as slaves. The rest of the population that didn't immediately flee he and his men terrorized, raped, exploited, and infected with illnesses they had no natural immunity to. He then returned on two subsequent voyages to repeat exactly the same behavior in his unquenchable quest for gold, despite the human cost.

... and for this we celebrate him...?

CFR

I dont believe it and I bet it is from a book that is done with shoddy research.

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I'm blaming Columbus for the rape, murder, enslavement and infection that occurred during the voyages he made to the Americas. Whatever else that followed is on the heads of those who committed it.

It is easy for us to sit back in the 21st century and judge a person that lived 516 years ago. I guess when someone puts forth something negative in print why are we so easy to believe that's what happened and that was the type of person he was?

From Columbus journals you would seem to get a very religious man not the filthy immoral pig Lurker has wrote.

When the temple work was done for the founding fathers Columbus and George Washington were the only two made High Priest, Why would Father in Heaven have a raping murderer if that was so?

I disagree completely with Loquacious lurker and the books that opine the immoral for a quick sale and an easy buck. Perhaps the author was trying to win a Pulitzer it seems to get a Pulitzers you have to have shocking history contrary to what we've been taught, hell these days facts be damned...

Ok Anijen breath in breath out, fluffy clouds, in comes the good air out goes the bad, 1, 2, 3, 4,....

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Between smallpox, measles and influenza, the total native population of the Americas is estimated to have decreased by 90% over the century and a half after the Spaniards landed. (Restall, Seven Myths of the Spanish Conquest, p. 140-141) However, I think we should be careful in accusing Columbus of too many crimes, when he was in reality one of the most diplomatic and peaceful of the Spanish explorers.

Particularly when compared to Cortes, de Alvaredo and Pizarro, he exhibited a remarkable amount of diplomacy towards the native tribes. His spreading of those diseases was hardly a malicious act, and the main spreading of Old World disease occurred from the early expeditions to Mexico.

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It is easy for us to sit back in the 21st century and judge a person that lived 516 years ago. I guess when someone puts forth something negative in print why are we so easy to believe that's what happened and that was the type of person he was?

It is a fact that Columbus took slaves back to Spain. He took thousands of them, and his efforts to round them up against their will sparked the first major battle in America between the natives and the Europeans.

It is a fact that as a result of his voyage, all Indian tribes contacted became infected with both sexually-transmitted and infectious diseases.

It is a fact that Columbus took their gold from them using any means necessary in order to defray the costs of his voyages for Isabella and Ferdinand. Columbus imposed a tribute system in order to get his gold. All natives in Haiti who were older than fouteen years old were required to find a certain quota of gold every three months. For this gold, they would be given a copper tokens that they wore around their necks. Any Indian found without a copper token had their hands cut off and subsequently bled to death.

There's indisputable evidence of murder, enslavement, theft, and, at the very least, fornication. Columbus was also searching for India, which is why he called the aboriginals "Indians". He had no use for a country no one knew about. He was not looking for that. He was looking for a spice route to the Far East.

Everything I said is true.

From Columbus journals you would seem to get a very religious man not the filthy immoral pig Lurker has wrote.

People who profess a belief in God can still be murderers, rapists, and thieves. Prisons are full of people who believe in God. Just as an interesting study, why don't you look up the phrase "Gott Mit Uns"? It means "God With Us", a very religious sentiment, I'm sure you'll agree. Check out who had it printed on their belt buckles.

When the temple work was done for the founding fathers Columbus and George Washington were the only two made High Priest, Why would Father in Heaven have a raping murderer if that was so?

I was under the impression that temple work is done for anyone who is dead, regardless of their sins in this life. Temple work has been done for Adolf Hitler, and his wife Eva Braun.

I disagree completely with Loquacious lurker and the books that opine the immoral for a quick sale and an easy buck. Perhaps the author was trying to win a Pulitzer it seems to get a Pulitzers you have to have shocking history contrary to what we've been taught, hell these days facts be damned...

If you don't find slavery, rape, and exploitation of peoples unable to defend themselves from invaders using advanced weapondry upsetting, then your postition is understandable.

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And you me, but it was still really rude.

Now, Life On a Plate, I actually really like you -- actually, I really like almost everyone on this board, although I think Bluebell gets the prize for being the sweetest person I've ever encountered on this or any message board -- but anyway, I actually like you very much, LOAP, so don't think I have a tone when I say this, but most of you here think I'm going to Hell, don't you? I mean....c'mon....you kind of do. And that hurts my feelings.

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Now, Life On a Plate, I actually really like you -- actually, I really like almost everyone on this board, although I think Bluebell gets the prize for being the sweetest person I've ever encountered on this or any message board -- but anyway, I actually like you very much, LOAP, so don't think I have a tone when I say this, but most of you here think I'm going to Hell, don't you? I mean....c'mon....you kind of do. And that hurts my feelings.

I wouldn't make the first intimation that you are going to "hell," LL. I think you, like me, will be judged by God with justice and mercy, and that's really not my business. :P

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