Revelations Mentions Only One Heaven, Not Three

[consiglieri]

Oh, dear, I would never do something like that! I think persons who are not familiar with the proper (English) names for books of the Bible do a good enough job "offing" themselves from the discussion.

Do you remember the name of that book? I know in the Stephen King novella "Different Seasons" (the source for the movie Apt Pupil) a teenage boy loses his mind and starts offing bums and commuters.

I think you are right about "Apt Pupil."

But the one I am thinking of was a collection of four short-stories by "Richard Bachman," and I seem to recall this little ditty was titled "Rage."

It went along with "Road Work," "The Long Walk (?)" and "The Running Man."

If memory serves.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Scott Lloyd]

Touche! I might have expected someone as erudite as you to catch that!

I remember reading a Stephen King book back in the 80's, written under his nom de plume of Richard Bachman, where a whacko teen goes to school one day loaded for bear and starts shooting people for little to no reason.

I seem to recall him offing somebody for saying the Book of Revelations.

Not suggesting that that was a good thing . . .

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Goodness! I have my pet peeves, but that's taking things a bit too far, I would say.

[Garden Girl]

I find it interesting that Paul is talking about some of his revelations and visions from the Lord in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell; God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)...

How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

Garden Girl

[Rob Osborn]

I think it is in good defense that the Bible never mentions more than "one" physical place where the kingdom of God is in the future. More important is the fact that "all" of the saved go to the same place to be with each other. There is no separation of the righteous whom Christ saves. Sure, someone might have more glory or something like that in heaven and thus have a greater reward in that sense but there is no proof that heaven is three distinct spheres out in space that are separate from each other.

What I am driving at here is the great quest for the truth as far as salvation goes. Christ often spoke in parables and the one that really stands out to me is where he likens everything to the kingdom of heaven. There is so much truth in there that I feel we are just missing something. Christ uses different analogies to explain how there will be a separation of the righteous and the wicked in the end and he will set the righteous on his right hand while the wicked go on his left hand to be cast aside. This is remarkable in the sense that Mosiah was told in the BoM to "marvel not" that "all mankind must be born of god becoming his sons and daughters" and if they do not this (leaving none else) then are they cast aside. What is important to note here is that the Lord himself is speaking and saying quite bluntly that "all" men must be born again (baptized) to become his sons and daughters. Sons and daughters are heirs to all that god has and will reside in the kingdom of heaven- the same exact kingdom described in Revelations. There is no disputing then that those who are not "born again into the kingdom of heaven will be cast off fromthe presence of the Lord. Remember that it is not I saying this but the Lord himself.

[Zakuska]

"In my fathers house there are many mansions..."

This doctrine goes back much further than Origen, however. Irenaeus preserved the same tradition which had supposedly come from the elders who knew the Apostles. Many think he received it from Papias:

And as the presbyters say, Then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour shall be seen according as they who see Him shall be worthy. [They say, moreover], that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundred-fold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold: for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second will dwell in paradise, the last will inhabit the city; and that was on this account the Lord declared, "In My Father's house are many mansions." For all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place; even as His Word says, that a share is allotted to all by the Father, according as each person is or shall be worthy. And this is the couch on which the guests shall recline, having been invited to the wedding. The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, affirm that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature; also that they ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father, and that in due time the Son will yield up His work to the Father, even as it is said by the apostle, "For He must reign till He hath put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."15

Clement of Alexandria also expressed belief in the three degrees, and echoed the Lord's revelation to Joseph Smith that those in the highest degree "are gods, even the sons of God."16

Conformably, therefore, there are various abodes, according to the worth of those who have believed.... These chosen abodes, which are three, are indicated by the numbers in the Gospel--the thirty, the sixty, the hundred. And the perfect inheritance belongs to those who attain to "a perfect man," according to the image of the Lord.... To the likeness of God, then, he that is introduced into adoption and the friendship of God, to the just inheritance of the lords and gods is brought; if he be perfected, according to the Gospel, as the Lord Himself taught.17

Clement also preached that the three gradations of glory are procured by virtue of three types of actions:

[Clement of Alexandria] reckons three kinds of actions, the first of which is... right or perfect action, which is characteristic of the perfect man and Gnostic alone, and raises him to the height of glory. The second is the class of... medium, or intermediate actions, which are done by less perfect believers, and procure a lower grade of glory. In the third place he reckons sinful actions, which are done by those who fall away from salvation.18

Indeed, even where three degrees were not specifically mentioned, it was maintained that various gradations of the elect exist. For example, Similitude 8 in the Pastor of Hermas discusses various types of elect. The editors of one collection of early Christian documents preface the chapter with this summary:

"That there are many kinds of elect, and of repenting sinners: and how all of them shall receive a reward proportionable to the measure of their repentance and good works.19

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2671/EC3Deg.html

[Rob Osborn]

The "third heaven", "..many mansions"., how do we know that all of this is just not part of the "Celestial glory" as is spoken here ?-

1 IN the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 131:1)

[MormonMason]

What is interesting is that We as Mormons have been instructed to study out the book of Revelations as it is very particular to our day and age. What is interesting is that John was specifically the "one guy" who was set apart to write about our day and the revelations of how judgment would come about. All other prophets only build off of what he revealed. Particular to the book of Revelations is the teaching of "only" one heaven and not three.

In ch. 20:14-15 it mentions that whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death. This according to the previous verse happens after the millennium. The book of life however is reserved only for the Celestial world peoples according to the D&C. Now keep reading on in ch. 21. It says that in verses 7-8 that to him that overcometh will inherit all things and he shall be my son whereas the rest are the ones in the second death. Once again- only two distinct divisions of peoples. At the end of the chapter it speaks that the Lamb will be the light of the kingdom and that all the nations of the "saved" shall walk in the light of it and that no wicked person shall enter into this kingdom. In the next chapter (22), in verses 14-15 it once again affirms the position of either having access to the kingdom if you are saved or outside of the city and being damned in the second death.

So, if the Revelation of St. John the Divine is really true, all of the saved are in "one" place while the rest are in the lake of fire and brimstone. So if this is true, what should be made of Joseph's revelation of section 76? Is Revelations overuled or is section 76 wrong or unclear as to its meaning?

Actually, the Book of Revelation speaks of four classes of people in other places at the end, and these fit quite well with the LDS view. Also, the Doctrine and Covenants section 76 does not speak of multiple heavens. See the Introduction, which speaks of one heaven with more kingdoms than one. The four classes of people are those who are holy, righteous, unjust and filthy. According to other sections of the Doctrine and Covenants combined with the teachings of the section 76: Holy = Celestial Kingdom of heaven; Righteous = Terrestrial Kingdom of heaven; Unjust = Telestial Kingdom of heaven; Filthy = Perdition/Outer Darkness/no glory.

There are also at least three classes to be seen in Revelation 20: Those holy, and in the second resurrection there are those among the dead who will not be found in the Book of Life but this passage assumes that there will be those who will not be cast into the lake of fire or destroyed. But, even this does not contradict the teachings of section 76, but rather fits the chronology. Those who will be alive during the millenium will be those who are worthy of both celestial and terrestrial glory, according to section 76 and other sections that speak of these glories. I need to go to bed but just wanted to give a few thoughts as they occurred. I may not have time to come back to this thread to elucidate further as I have limited time and need to stick to no more than a couple threads at a time.

[Rob Osborn]

MormonMason,

The 4 classifications you mentioned are actually just 2. The holy and the righteous are the same group. One is pronounced just, holy, righteous, spotless etc if he is found on the right hand of God. If he is found on the left hand though he is pronounced unjust, filthy, unrepentant etc.

Let us examine the just/ unjust for a moment. The just are those who are justified through Christ by being obedient to his commandments. A just person is a person who Christ is able to save from Satan's powers eternally. The unjust are specifically the filthy souls who are not justified and are still a fallen individual. Christ has no power to save this type of soul from Satan. What is interesting about section 76 is that when it discusses the just and the unjust, only the Celestial are mentioned as the just. The unjust are basically equated as the sons of perdition. If you read section 76 very carefully you will notice that some of the telestial individuals described are the very sons of perdition. These sons of perdition that are found on the Telestial world will not be resurrected until the last resurrection. Everyone else according to the section (verses 106-107) is perfected and presented spotless to the Father as part of the kingdom.

The temple informs us that The timing and placement of the Telestial Kingdom is the earth right now. Joseph Smith did not understand this when he wrote this section. It was later revealed in the endowment ceremony that the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms were not eternal worlds of glory after resurrection but mere stages of the earth's progression until it gets celestialized. One could argue very strongly that This earth right now is the same Telestial Kingdom as is mentioned in section 76. This is the only possible way to explain why Joseph mentions the sons of perdition in verse 103 as being a part of the Telestial Kingdom. Cross reference verse 103 with the other scriptures given in the footnotes- they are very much indeed the sons of perdition.

[T-Shirt]

Rob,

Care to respond to my most, #21?

Thanks,

T-Shirt

[Rob Osborn]

T-Shirt,

Sure, sorry for not replying sooner.

In answere to the first question- There will be no wicked people who get saved in the end after the millennium. LDS doctrine teaches that there will be some wicked individuals who get saved fromt the lake of fire but yet do not get saved into the kingdom of God. However, the doctrine is based solely off of interpretive speculation from the scriptures. The scriptures on the other hand are quite clear. Read Mosiah 27:25-27. Note how the Lord says that "all men" must be born again. Note also how he says that they must be changed from their "fallen state". Compare this with D&C 29:27-28,41-44. Note how the "wicked" are cast off intothe lake of fire. No mention is made whatsoever of saving wicked individuals. In fact verses 41-44 state quite plainly that unless a person believes and repents and becomes the opposite of "wicked" then they will be damned to hell. The righteous on the other hand all receive eternal life.

In answer to the second question- I have long debated and thought of this and the answer comes indirectly but is still inferred from Revelations 3:5 itself. Note how it says that they will be clothed in white raiment. It is inferred that if you are not clothed in this white raiment then your name is blotted out. White raiment deals specifically with sinlessness or perfection. Read this verse to clarify-

21 I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be asaved; for there can no man be saved except his bgarments are washed white; yea, his garments must be cpurified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins.

(Book of Mormon | Alma 5:21)

Compare this with this verse-

52 That by akeeping the commandments they might be bwashed and ccleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the dhands of him who is eordained and sealed unto this power;

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:52)

So therefore, from indirect inferrence only the Celestial are the ones pronounced that their garments are clean and thus from Revelations, only the clean are recorded in the book of life.

In answer to the third question- The book of life is the book of names that are listed that have done the necessary ordinances and covenants that pertain to the status of one having eternal life. There will not be wicked peoples names found within the book of life because they have not eternal life- thus they instead have eternal death (second death).

In answer to the fourth question- The names written in heaven is in direct reference to the names found written and recorded in the book of life. Compare this verse with Revelations 22:19-

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the abook of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

(New Testament | Revelation 22:19)

In answer to your fifth question- The boof of the names of the sanctified are the ones dressed in white raiment. They are spotless, and thus the inferrence to the names of the Celestial world only.

To your sixth- There is no possibilty of a wicked person at judgment being saved form the second death. No scripture whatsoever refers to a wicked individual being saved from the second death at the great day of judgment. We as LDS tend to try to read between the lines of John's Revelation but it is very clear- Name found in the book of life= saved, whereas- name not found in book of life= lake of fire and brimstone. No other possibility exists.

Refer back to Revelations 3:5 on whose name is found recorded in the book of life. Only the spotless (the righteous, clean, and pure) have their names recorded within its pages. There is no loophole from the second death without strict obedience to the gospel's covenants and ordinances that are designed to specifically save us from the lake of fire and brimstone!

[T-Shirt]

Rob,

There are several problems I see in your response. I don't have time to address them right now, but I'll be back.

Regards,

T-Shirt

[Sparty]

I think that this is actually a question where LDS people in general use an incorrect frame of reference leading to misunderstanding. Heaven is not so much a place as a state of being.

If I read D&C 88:36-39 correctly there is not 1 physical place (heaven) or 3 physical places (tel, ter, cel) or 5 physical places (tel, ter, cel 1,2,3) that make up what is generically called heaven. There are as many physical places as there is space...in other words the telestial, terrestial, celestial 1,2,3 are eternal and endless. The kingdoms described in D&C 76 are types of glories that resurrected beings can expect depending on which laws they have and will live, not a singular physical location where they will be assigned to reside. If I understand D&C 88 and 76 correctly, the kingdoms are not a single physical location. The locations of the celestial, terrestial and telestial are as endless as space and eternal laws.

The kingdoms are actually descriptions of the glory and law associated with a type of life. My opinion....the reason why outer darkness is called outer darkness is because it is the state of being for that person who choses to live without eternal blessings and glory. That person is not in a specific place, (s)he is in a specific state. The reason people in the celestial glory are called either gods or sons (daughters) of god is because they have humbled themselves, received the mercy of Christ and as such have shown themselves to be ready to live the same law (not necessarily the same place) that God lives...or in other words they become a joint-heir with Christ.

D&C 88: 36-39

36 All kingdoms have a law given;

37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.

38 And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.

39 All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified.

[Son]

I think that this is actually a question where LDS people in general use an incorrect frame of reference leading to misunderstanding. Heaven is not so much a place as a state of being.

If I read D&C 88:36-39 correctly there is not 1 physical place (heaven) or 3 physical places (tel, ter, cel) or 5 physical places (tel, ter, cel 1,2,3) that make up what is generically called heaven. There are as many physical places as there is space...in other words the telestial, terrestial, celestial 1,2,3 are eternal and endless. The kingdoms described in D&C 76 are types of glories that resurrected beings can expect depending on which laws they have and will live, not a singular physical location where they will be assigned to reside. If I understand D&C 88 and 76 correctly, the kingdoms are not a single physical location. The locations of the celestial, terrestial and telestial are as endless as space and eternal laws.

The kingdoms are actually descriptions of the glory and law associated with a type of life. My opinion....the reason why outer darkness is called outer darkness is because it is the state of being for that person who choses to live without eternal blessings and glory. That person is not in a specific place, (s)he is in a specific state. The reason people in the celestial glory are called either gods or sons (daughters) of god is because they have humbled themselves, received the mercy of Christ and as such have shown themselves to be ready to live the same law (not necessarily the same place) that God lives...or in other words they become a joint-heir with Christ.

D&C 88: 36-39

36 All kingdoms have a law given;

37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.

38 And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.

39 All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified.

thanks for your post, it is very insightfull, and accurate. (not that you needed me to say so.)

Godspeed,

son

[Rob Osborn]

Sparty,

I agree with you in some degree. However, there is still the issue of section 76 and how we try to interpret the kingdoms. Section 76 refers to separate worlds for each of the three. The problem is however on how one interprets the section. If we interpret it how we have continued to interpret it then it is three separate worlds of glory. If we interpret it with the modification of the temple language then it is only one earth, just at progressively different times in it's existance.

This also leads into exactly what is Telestial and Terrestrial law? They cannot be carnal or worldly in any way and yet are still laws prescribed by Christ that are holy. If we once again apply the temple knowledge in our understanding then we can ascertain what them holy laws are. Telestial law is the lowest level of holy law possible. It includes spotlessness and ordinances such as baptism. Beyond that however I am not sure. Terrestrial law involves some level of the priesthood and obedience to it. Celestial law incorporates all of the lower Telestial and Terrestrial levels but also includes the law of consecration.

Eternal marriage is strange in that it can be entered into without obedience of proving oneself able to live Celestial law. This is done everyday in temples throughout the world. It is based primarily on accepting to live by laws in the future when they become fully available.

[Paul Ray]

Sparty,

I agree with you in some degree. However, there is still the issue of section 76 and how we try to interpret the kingdoms. Section 76 refers to separate worlds for each of the three.

Yes, but the separate worlds are all part of one big gigantic kingdom.

... in a sense, they are kingdoms within the one kingdom of God.

The problem is however on how one interprets the section.

Yes, and correct interpretions are the correct solutions.

If we interpret it how we have continued to interpret it then it is three separate worlds of glory.

Are you suggesting the Celestial kingdom consists of only one world, or planet?

... and that, likewise, the Terrestrial and Telestial kingdoms each consists of only one world?

You need to think on a bigger scale, my brother. There is a big gigantic universe out there.

If we interpret it with the modification of the temple language then it is only one earth, just at progressively different times in it's existance.

That sounds like another bad interpretation based on a bad interpretation.

This Earth is destined to become a Celestial planet, but it isn't and won't be the only Celestial planet in all of the universe.

[MormonMason]

MormonMason,

The 4 classifications you mentioned are actually just 2. The holy and the righteous are the same group. One is pronounced just, holy, righteous, spotless etc if he is found on the right hand of God. If he is found on the left hand though he is pronounced unjust, filthy, unrepentant etc.

Let us examine the just/ unjust for a moment. The just are those who are justified through Christ by being obedient to his commandments. A just person is a person who Christ is able to save from Satan's powers eternally. The unjust are specifically the filthy souls who are not justified and are still a fallen individual. Christ has no power to save this type of soul from Satan. What is interesting about section 76 is that when it discusses the just and the unjust, only the Celestial are mentioned as the just. The unjust are basically equated as the sons of perdition. If you read section 76 very carefully you will notice that some of the telestial individuals described are the very sons of perdition. These sons of perdition that are found on the Telestial world will not be resurrected until the last resurrection. Everyone else according to the section (verses 106-107) is perfected and presented spotless to the Father as part of the kingdom.

The temple informs us that The timing and placement of the Telestial Kingdom is the earth right now. Joseph Smith did not understand this when he wrote this section. It was later revealed in the endowment ceremony that the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms were not eternal worlds of glory after resurrection but mere stages of the earth's progression until it gets celestialized. One could argue very strongly that This earth right now is the same Telestial Kingdom as is mentioned in section 76. This is the only possible way to explain why Joseph mentions the sons of perdition in verse 103 as being a part of the Telestial Kingdom. Cross reference verse 103 with the other scriptures given in the footnotes- they are very much indeed the sons of perdition.

I looked over your view several times and had to scratch my head in trying to figure out where you get that verse 103 is speaking of sons of perdition. These are spoken of much earlier in the text. Liars and the others in the list will be thrust down to hell and then after the millenium be resurrected. These individuals will be part of the Telestial Kingdom according to established Church teaching. The four groups that you condense into 2 are only so in the description of the event that will take place at the coming of the Lord, where only the holy and the just will be allowed to continue into the millenium. All the others will have to wait until the second resurrection. Being just does not necessarily mean that one will be holy in the fullest sense of things.

For instance, one could be justified under the Law of Moses but the most that one could hope to obtain under that law was not perfection but righteouness by faithfulness. Righteousness in its fulness, however, and holiness in its fullest sense, could only be obtained under the Law of the Celestial Kingdom. I disagree that a view of temple teaching expands upon the teaching as given in Doctrine and Covenants 76. I would agree that more was revealed but the fact that this world now is in a Telestial state does not discount the fact that Joseph Smith himself taught that heaven is composed of more kingdoms than one. It also does not discount the existence of various kingdoms of glory in eternity. There will be no progression from glory to glory for those of the masses stuck in the lower glories or kingdoms by the Lord at the final judgment. Once that judgment is finished, only the exalted will continue to progress.

In addition, those who will be raised in the resurrection of the unjust will then be judged and those who are in the book of life will inherit a kingdom of glory that will forever cause the inhabitants to never be in the presence of the Father and Son again. Those not in the book will certainly not receive a kingdom of glory. My position takes into consideration the whole of scripture. There will indeed be the holy, the just, the unjust and the filthy who will never be cleansed enough to dwell in the presence of the Father and Son. Check out the other sections of the Doctrine and Covenants and you will see what I mean.

[Rob Osborn]

MormonMason,

Verse 103 is crossed to D&C 63:17, Rev. 21:8 and Rev. 22:15, 21:27. This is a word grouping that is in essence a paraphrase of earlier revelation. Not that it is official doctrine or anything, I think it interesting that verse 103 is cross referenced to verses specifying the same word grouping used to describe the sons of perdition.

Edited. Please do not discuss the temple endowment on a message board

The only part debateable about comparing the endowment cermony with the D&C is whether or not the wording of "Telestial Kingdom" is the same exact kingdom. Because there is no official doctrine concerning the matter I have gone on in my assumptions that it cannot be ruled out that they are the one and the same kingdom. This said, section 76 is still true, only now it becomes modified with a deeper meaning. This deeper meaning actually has better scriptual support than the previous doctrine.

I know it goes against pretty much every thing we have been taught in the church, but, there must be a reconciliation between the scriptures and the temple endowment ceremony because both show us how to return back to heaven. If they do not agree with each other then either one or both is wrong. If either one or both are wrong, then the LDS church is not teaching the true doctrine of Christ. But if, they are both correct in general then there just lies a misinterpretation issue. Everyone I have talked to says that the misinterpretation issue is of the temple view and not the D&C. Everyone says that I misinterpret the temple doctrine as far as the kingdoms are described. Almost every endowed member I communicate with will not aknowlege that the temple states that this earth is the "Telestial Kingdom" regardless of any mention to the D&C. They say instead that this earth represents the telestial kingdom or that it is in a telestial state. People are somewhat unaware I believe that the temple language uses the same language of the D&C when describing our current earth as the Telestial Kingdom/ world.

edited The disagreements come because we are so tuned in to other ways of thinking that we hear but hear not and see but see not. After the voice explains that the earth we now live on is the Telestial Kingdom, the voice of Elohim refers constantly to our existance here on the lone and dreary earth as the "telestial world". This is the same language as is used in the D&C.

Because we have no doctrine of multiple Telestial Kingdoms, we cannot rule out that the two are really just one and the same. Section 88 can also be viewed in the light of the temple also. It speaks heavily of living laws according to Kingdoms. The key verse may be found in verse 28 concerning the just in resurrection. Note how it states - "they who are of a celestial spirit" it then goes on to speak of being resurrected with different glories for all those who are of a "celestial spirit". This along with the temple endowment ceremony brings the knowledge that those resurrected people who have already been resurrected have done so with a Telestial glory because that is the glory of the earth right now. These resurrected bodies will be quickened tothe higher glory of the Terrestrial as the earth is renewed with the higher glory of Christs return and then once again after the millennium into Celestial grade bodies as the earth becomes renewed with this glory also.

[Sparty]

Sparty,

I agree with you in some degree. However, there is still the issue of section 76 and how we try to interpret the kingdoms. Section 76 refers to separate worlds for each of the three. The problem is however on how one interprets the section. If we interpret it how we have continued to interpret it then it is three separate worlds of glory. If we interpret it with the modification of the temple language then it is only one earth, just at progressively different times in it's existance.

Let me offer a third interpretation. In "The Holy Temple" Elder Packer stresses that the temple ceremony teaches the plan of salvation and much of the teaching is symbolic.

Likewise, the defining principle of each world mentioned in D&C 76 is the law given to that world, the glory (promises or blessings) given to that world, and the responsibilities given to that world. If we do not constrain the idea of a world to mean a specific physical place but a type or symbol of resurrected glory (consistent with D&C 76) both the temple and 76 symbolically discuss the same thing in a slightly different way....the journey towards the potential outcomes that await individuals and the choices that get them there....or the plan of salvation.

To clarify, I do believe there are physical places (e.g. - this earth some day and god's planet according to D&C 130) where people live celestial laws and have resurrected glories. However, I don't think these are singular (one place that is a celestial world). D&C 88 suggests that there are as many kingdoms as there is space...which we currently assume is endless and infinite. I think that by constraining our thoughts to think of the Celestial Glory as just one singular place reduces our understanding of Celestial glory.

Your discussion of laws is interesting....might make a good thread on its own.

Sparty

[cjcampbell]

There is only one heaven -- exaltation in the celestial kingdom and life in the presence of God. Anything less is a level of damnation.

We are not given specific details on a road-map to the telestial or terrestrial kingdoms for a good reason -- God does not intend these to be our destination. You want to go there, you have to find your own way.

[Rob Osborn]

cjcampbell,

I disagree. The word "damnation"means to deliver or condemn to hell or even the state of the condemned in hell. Every scripture passage containing the word "damn", "damned" and "damnation" always mean to condemn to hell. There is a roadmap to the Telestial Kingdom obviously because we are in it right now.

[MormonMason]

MormonMason,

Verse 103 is crossed to D&C 63:17, Rev. 21:8 and Rev. 22:15, 21:27. This is a word grouping that is in essence a paraphrase of earlier revelation. Not that it is official doctrine or anything, I think it interesting that verse 103 is cross referenced to verses specifying the same word grouping used to describe the sons of perdition.

It may be cross referenced to these scriptures but these are not sons of perdition. They may have their part in the lake of fire, according to Revelation 21:8, 17 but the passage presupposes no length of duration and there are no verbs or adjectives expressive of time. Anyone going to the Telestial kingdom will have part in the suffering of the damned, the same as those who will be sons of perdition. The difference is that those destined for the Telestial Kingdom will get out at some point of time in the second resurrection/resurrection of the unjust. Here is the context of the remarks in verse 103, which puts the lie to your eisegesis of scripture:

98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;

101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.

103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.

105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine–press alone, even the wine–press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.

108 Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

(Doctrine and Covenants 76:98-112)

Look at the full context of the entire passage and note the repeated use ot telestial, telestial world, these and they in the passage, and note the punctuation and the structure of the conjunctions of the sentences used there. There is no room for doubt when we rely on the scriptures as given and do not formulate views based solely upon the footnotes.

The only part debateable about comparing the endowment cermony with the D&C is whether or not the wording of "Telestial Kingdom" is the same exact kingdom. Because there is no official doctrine concerning the matter I have gone on in my assumptions that it cannot be ruled out that they are the one and the same kingdom. This said, section 76 is still true, only now it becomes modified with a deeper meaning. This deeper meaning actually has better scriptual support than the previous doctrine.

Actually, there is no deeper meaning there. The terms Telestial world and Telestial Kingdom are not totally synonymous in their greater contexts. Several General Authorities have given talks over the years concerning the matter, not the least of which is President Brigham Young. More on this below.

I know it goes against pretty much every thing we have been taught in the church, but, there must be a reconciliation between the scriptures and the temple endowment ceremony because both show us how to return back to heaven. If they do not agree with each other then either one or both is wrong. If either one or both are wrong, then the LDS church is not teaching the true doctrine of Christ. But if, they are both correct in general then there just lies a misinterpretation issue. Everyone I have talked to says that the misinterpretation issue is of the temple view and not the D&C. Everyone says that I misinterpret the temple doctrine as far as the kingdoms are described. Almost every endowed member I communicate with will not aknowlege that the temple states that this earth is the "Telestial Kingdom" regardless of any mention to the D&C. They say instead that this earth represents the telestial kingdom or that it is in a telestial state. People are somewhat unaware I believe that the temple language uses the same language of the D&C when describing our current earth as the Telestial Kingdom/ world.

The Temple Ceremony does not use the same language as the Doctrine and Covenants notwithstanding like terms are used. Brigham Young was pretty insistent that the world is going through changes in state and that the world currently is in the Telestial State, and he relates it to the temple ceremony without quoting anything.

The disagreements come because we are so tuned in to other ways of thinking that we hear but hear not and see but see not. After the voice explains that the earth we now live on is the Telestial Kingdom, the voice of Elohim refers constantly to our existance here on the lone and dreary earth as the "telestial world". This is the same language as is used in the D&C.

The language is not that of the Doctrine and Covenants. The disagreements come because we do not listen to the Brethren and because we try to set ourselves up as authorities on doctrine. I never did get the meanings you do out of the temple ceremony simply for the fact that when I come up with something, I check with the teachings of the presidents of the Church (not the printed manuals but their actual teachings themselves) and try to see if there is some degree of consensus. There pretty much is consensus on the matter of the world being in a telestial state, and that the world as we know it will reach a terrestrial state ("paradisiacal glory" as one scripture puts it) and eventually be celestialized.

Because we have no doctrine of multiple Telestial Kingdoms, we cannot rule out that the two are really just one and the same. Section 88 can also be viewed in the light of the temple also. It speaks heavily of living laws according to Kingdoms. The key verse may be found in verse 28 concerning the just in resurrection. Note how it states - "they who are of a celestial spirit" it then goes on to speak of being resurrected with different glories for all those who are of a "celestial spirit". This along with the temple endowment ceremony brings the knowledge that those resurrected people who have already been resurrected have done so with a Telestial glory because that is the glory of the earth right now. These resurrected bodies will be quickened tothe higher glory of the Terrestrial as the earth is renewed with the higher glory of Christs return and then once again after the millennium into Celestial grade bodies as the earth becomes renewed with this glory also.

The earth is now part of the telestial kingdom. We have no detailed doctrine on multiple telestial kingdoms but the idea itself is part and parcel of the wording of the revelations on the matter. There are differing glories amongst those of the telestial kingdom and there are as many variations as there are stars of different magnitude in the heavens. Even amongst those who will inherit one of three heavens or degrees of the celestial kingdom there will be variation. See section 131:1-4 and section 132:15-20. In time, there will be those who will add glory to glory in their exaltation and others will stop their progression and add no more glory to their static selves by failure to abide the commandments of God. But, by no means does section 88 maintain that peole of celestial spirits are raised to telestial bodies and glory simply because they are raised from the dead on what is now a world in the telestial state of existence. I have combed section 88 and cannot fathom where you are getting this from. The fact that resurrected personages already raised are described as having a glory shining brighter than the noon-day sun or above the noon-day sun (Joseph Smith-History 1:16-17; 1:30-32; Doctrine and Covenants 110:1-4; Oliver Cowdery's description of John the Baptist, etc.) puts the lie to that false interpretation and doctrine. The scriptures do not call celestial glory the glory of the sun for nothing. The plain reading of the scriptures, particularly section 88 is that all will be quickened with the glory which their spirits merit.

Now, in fairness, it is possible for us to progress from state to state and our spirits to progress from glory to glory while we are yet alive but the final judgment puts a stop to the advancement and development and progression of all but those who will be exalted. Notwithstanding, your view as a whole misinterprets the rather plain meaning of the scriptures as a whole.

[MormonMason]

cjcampbell,

I disagree. The word "damnation"means to deliver or condemn to hell or even the state of the condemned in hell. Every scripture passage containing the word "damn", "damned" and "damnation" always mean to condemn to hell. There is a roadmap to the Telestial Kingdom obviously because we are in it right now.

The term damnation does not always refer to condemnation in hell, just as the phrase outer darkness in several passages of the book of Matthew does not refer to the place of no glory for the sons of perdition. See Doctrine and Covenants 132 and read section 88 very carefully. Damnation also indicates the loss of blessings and resultant suffering and sadness that this causes. All roads leading away from exaltation lead toward damnation of greater or lesser degree.

[wenglund]

What is interesting is that We as Mormons have been instructed to study out the book of Revelations as it is very particular to our day and age. What is interesting is that John was specifically the "one guy" who was set apart to write about our day and the revelations of how judgment would come about. All other prophets only build off of what he revealed. Particular to the book of Revelations is the teaching of "only" one heaven and not three.

In ch. 20:14-15 it mentions that whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death. This according to the previous verse happens after the millennium. The book of life however is reserved only for the Celestial world peoples according to the D&C. Now keep reading on in ch. 21. It says that in verses 7-8 that to him that overcometh will inherit all things and he shall be my son whereas the rest are the ones in the second death. Once again- only two distinct divisions of peoples. At the end of the chapter it speaks that the Lamb will be the light of the kingdom and that all the nations of the "saved" shall walk in the light of it and that no wicked person shall enter into this kingdom. In the next chapter (22), in verses 14-15 it once again affirms the position of either having access to the kingdom if you are saved or outside of the city and being damned in the second death.

So, if the Revelation of St. John the Divine is really true, all of the saved are in "one" place while the rest are in the lake of fire and brimstone. So if this is true, what should be made of Joseph's revelation of section 76? Is Revelations overuled or is section 76 wrong or unclear as to its meaning?

I am no sure this has been mentioned already in this thread (I am sorry but I haven't had a chance to read through it), but whether right or wrong, I tend not to look at this in and either/or way (i.e. either there is one heaven or there are three heavens), but rather as there being both one heaven and three, or stated another way, three heavens in one heaven. Sound familiar? To me, this 3-in-1 correlation with the Godhead is not coicidental, but according to divine design. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Paul Ray]

There is only one heaven -- exaltation in the celestial kingdom and life in the presence of God. Anything less is a level of damnation.

I can understand how you can see it that way, and I once thought so myself, but the Terrestrial and Telestial kingdoms are also within the kingdom of heaven. Feel free to search the scriptures.

We are not given specific details on a road-map to the telestial or terrestrial kingdoms for a good reason -- God does not intend these to be our destination. You want to go there, you have to find your own way.

Actually, we are giving some specific details on a "road-map" to other kingdoms of heaven.

... and I believe having that knowledge can help us know where we are going.

[Rob Osborn]

MormonMason,

The lake of fire and brimstone is the term laid out only for the sons of perdition. If you have your part in it then you are suffering the second death. The lake of fire is equated to "endless torment" and the "second death" quite a lot in the scriptures. Endless torment is specified only for the wicked after resurrection and judgment and only comes to Satan's followers. The second death only has power over the sons of perdition. Read D&C 76:36-37, it is very clear that only the sons of perdition go into the lake of fire and suffer the second death.

For some reason, the end of section 76 where it discusses the Telestial world inhabitants, there seems to be a general division of peoples. That of the wicked as is described through108 but then in verse 109 it begins to describe a completely different group. The first group- those of verses 102-106 are described as the "last of all" group whereas the second group of individuals in verses 109-112 is referred to as the "glory and the inhabitants", this group are the righteous individuals who have come to a reality of the gospel and worship God. These will go to the kingdom of god to be rewarded. Verse 112 is confusing in that it specifies that they may never go to where God and Christ are "worlds without end". I believe that this can mean that as long as we are here on this earth (the Telestial Kingdom) we cannot got to the place where god dwells. 112 is somewhat contradictoryto 111 in that at first it appears that all of these glorious individuals go to the kingdom of heaven where God dwells and then in the very next verse it says that they cannot come to the kingdom of heaven. In light of the knowledge though of this earth being the Telestial Kingdom it is correct in that no matter what man does he cannot go to where God dwells because mortals do not inhabit places where immortals reside.

The temple is quite specific and seems to drive home the very point that this earth is the telestial kingdom. I could state as fact that the temple teaches that this earth is the Telestial kingdom. There can be no dispute in this matter. The issue is however if the Telestial kingdom we are now in is the same Telestial kingdom as described in section 76. Personally, I think it is impossible to state that they are separate kingdoms in time because to do so breaks every law of heaven concerning the plan of salvation. Wicked people (the unrepentant) just have no claim whatsoever on salvation. The repentance proces requires paying any penalty for sin and then belief and baptism into the kingdom of heaven, none of which section 76 describes on certain telestial inhabitants. So either the entire bible, book of mormon, pogp, and the D&C are just flat out wrong in teaching the plan of salvation, or, our interpretation of section 76 is just plainly in error. I find it way more plausible that our interpretation of a few select verses in the D&C are wrong verses Christ being made a liar for teaching a false doctrine.