Revelations Mentions Only One Heaven, Not Three

[MormonMason]

I can understand how you can see it that way, and I once thought so myself, but the Terrestrial and Telestial kingdoms are also within the kingdom of heaven. Feel free to search the scriptures.

Actually, we are giving some specific details on a "road-map" to other kingdoms of heaven.

... and I believe having that knowledge can help us know where we are going.

But, the Telestial Kingdom represents permanent and total separation from the Father and Son. And, you have to go to hell to get there. No way I'd want to be there...

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

cjcampbell,

I disagree. The word "damnation"means to deliver or condemn to hell or even the state of the condemned in hell. Every scripture passage containing the word "damn", "damned" and "damnation" always mean to condemn to hell. There is a roadmap to the Telestial Kingdom obviously because we are in it right now.

In a way you are still damned if you end up in the lower two kingdoms.

Why?

After having been passed thru the judgment bar to the, say, terrestrial kingdom...you will be damned in a way that you will never ever be in the presence of you Heavenly Father...nor have eternal families, nor progress...

In the telestial world...you will never ever be in the presence of the savior Jesus Christ either...

Can you imagine that? I did have a little problem with the Book of Mormon when it appeared to talk of one heaven and one hell...but being outside of the presence of God eternally would mean a bit of condemnation for me.

[Nofear]

While not particularly on topic, I thought I'd chime in a brief commentary about my appreciation of the doctrinal tolerance we have within the Church. Here we have an interesting thread with two rather different views being espoused. Nor are they unique to the two interlocutors as I've heard such views elsewhere. Yet, despite the differences, both can hold their views and still be regarded as faithful Latter-day Saints ... even though in all probability one (or both) the views are wrong -- even heretical. Ain't Mormonism fun!

[Paul Ray]

But, the Telestial Kingdom represents permanent and total separation from the Father and Son. And, you have to go to hell to get there. No way I'd want to be there...

Me either, but some will be.

And btw, it isn't "total separation" from the Father and Son.

The Terrestrial will enjoy the full presence of the Son, when he personally visits, and the Telestial will receive messages from both of them through messengers, aka angels.

Think of how people today would be thrilled to simply see an angel.

[MormonMason]

MormonMason,

The lake of fire and brimstone is the term laid out only for the sons of perdition. If you have your part in it then you are suffering the second death. The lake of fire is equated to "endless torment" and the "second death" quite a lot in the scriptures. Endless torment is specified only for the wicked after resurrection and judgment and only comes to Satan's followers. The second death only has power over the sons of perdition. Read D&C 76:36-37, it is very clear that only the sons of perdition go into the lake of fire and suffer the second death.

No, it is not only for them. Those who enter the Telestial Kingdom do so through hell. Anyone who suffers in hell has part in the lake of fire. It is only the sons of perdition who will return there and forever stay there after their resurrection, thus suffering the second death. Those of the telestial kingdom will get out but forever be separated from the Father and Son. The lake of fire represents the second death. However, only the sons of perdition will get to stay there. The scriptures as a whole are quite clear on that regard.

For some reason, the end of section 76 where it discusses the Telestial world inhabitants, there seems to be a general division of peoples. That of the wicked as is described through108 but then in verse 109 it begins to describe a completely different group. The first group- those of verses 102-106 are described as the "last of all" group whereas the second group of individuals in verses 109-112 is referred to as the "glory and the inhabitants", this group are the righteous individuals who have come to a reality of the gospel and worship God. These will go to the kingdom of god to be rewarded. Verse 112 is confusing in that it specifies that they may never go to where God and Christ are "worlds without end". I believe that this can mean that as long as we are here on this earth (the Telestial Kingdom) we cannot got to the place where god dwells. 112 is somewhat contradictoryto 111 in that at first it appears that all of these glorious individuals go to the kingdom of heaven where God dwells and then in the very next verse it says that they cannot come to the kingdom of heaven. In light of the knowledge though of this earth being the Telestial Kingdom it is correct in that no matter what man does he cannot go to where God dwells because mortals do not inhabit places where immortals reside.

No, there is no separation at all and no ordering as you claim. The middle verses of this group are parenthetical. The entire context and structure of the sentences are clear on that regard, including the use of the word "for" to connect the thought. The structure of the portion of the revelation relating to kingdoms as a whole is in the following order:

1. sons of Perdition

2. Celestial Kingdom

3. Terrestrial Kingdom

4. Telestial Kingdom.

The order is concrete and the last section of verses of section 76:98-112 clearly speaks of the Telestial Kingdom and the kinds of people who will go there. Take a look at the sentence structure, not at individual verses. Notice the fact that the word telestial is repeated at both ends of that section of verses and that conjunctions and conjunctive words like for connect the sense of the passages together. If you cannot see that, I am sorry but it is as plain on the nose on my face.

Verses 106-109 are parenthetical, not "somewhat contradictory," as you falsely claim. Look at verse 98, where the words "telestial world" are connected to verse 99 by the conjunctive force of the phrase "for these are they." Verse 100 is connected to verse 99 by the force of the words "these are they" at the beginning of the sentence, and continue the description of those who prefer sectarian class-distinctions and divisiveness as Paul describes them in 1 Corinthians. Verse 101 is connected by the word "but" to verse 100.

Then, the phrases "last of all" and "these are all they" connect the comments following to the preceding and the following phrases are linked in by repeating the same phrase "these are they" and the parenthetical phrase concerning those who will not be caught up etc., refer to all who will not ever be members of the Church of the Firstborn and who will not be caught up at Jesus' coming, is connected by further repeated "these are they" clauses.

These in turn are connected with the second resurrection by the phraseology of the 106th verse, which in turn is connected by the word "When" in verse 107 and the word "Then" in verse 108 to form the full parenthetical phraseology of events that will take place at the end, when the second resurrection occurs and Christ is enthroned. Finally, the phrase "But behold and lo" speaks again of the telestial world and connects these with the words "that they were"in verse 109. Verse 110 is connected to 109 with the word "and" and verse 111 is connected to verse 110 by the word "For". Verse 112 is connected to verse 111 by the word "And" in the sentence. The words "these all" is a repeat of the same phrase that is at verse 102.

Finally, each section of the vision is closed with final comments that announce that no further information is given regarding that section and that they were moving onto the next portion of the vision. Verse 49 states that it was "the end of the vision of the sufferings of the ungodly." Verse 70 ends the vision of the Celestial glory. Verse 71 then begins the vision of the Terrestrial world. Verse 80 ends the vision of the terrestrial world and 81 begins the vision of the telestial world. Verses 84-85 define these people as those who are thrust "down to hell" until the last resurrection and this agrees with the later discussion of the telestial world where the same words "down to hell" are used in verse 106.

Verse 86 describes those spoken of in verses 84-85 and this is followed by parenthetical remarks made recounting in reverse order the visions of the degrees of glory and their relative differences from one another, from telestial to celestial, reverting back in order again from celestial to terrestrial in verse 97. Verse 98, where the vision of the telestial world is taken back up again, belongs to the vision of the telestial world which was never ended until the vision closes up in verse 113. In no place is the telestial vision closed before parenthetical and chiastic remarks are made regarding the relative differences between kingdoms of glory. Both the visions of the celestial and terrestrial were closed up by endings but the ending for the whole vision does not occur until verse 113, which gives further credence to my position regarding the order of the visions in the revelation. The conclusion from all the evidence of form and structure is that the verses we have been discussing are part of the vision of the telestial world on both sides of the connected parenthetical comments.

To recap, each previous portion of the vision is ended with a comment regarding ending the vision of each section before beginning another (the sufferings of the ungodly, verse 49; the celestial world, verse 70; the terrestrial world, verse 80). Each portion and vision of each world is preceded with an opening statement connected with the closing statement of the preceding vision. The phrase "But behold, and lo," in the 109th verse informs us that we still are reading, after the parenthetical interruption, the vision of the telestial world that had not yet been closed. There is no closing statement for the telestial world; the entire vision closes on verse 113. Thus, the evidence is against your falsified interpretation of the revelation and lends much stronger support to my position on the contents of the revelation and its organization.

The temple is quite specific and seems to drive home the very point that this earth is the telestial kingdom. I could state as fact that the temple teaches that this earth is the Telestial kingdom. There can be no dispute in this matter. The issue is however if the Telestial kingdom we are now in is the same Telestial kingdom as described in section 76. Personally, I think it is impossible to state that they are separate kingdoms in time because to do so breaks every law of heaven concerning the plan of salvation. Wicked people (the unrepentant) just have no claim whatsoever on salvation. The repentance proces requires paying any penalty for sin and then belief and baptism into the kingdom of heaven, none of which section 76 describes on certain telestial inhabitants. So either the entire bible, book of mormon, pogp, and the D&C are just flat out wrong in teaching the plan of salvation, or, our interpretation of section 76 is just plainly in error. I find it way more plausible that our interpretation of a few select verses in the D&C are wrong verses Christ being made a liar for teaching a false doctrine.

You seem to be overstating your interpretation of things from the temple ceremony. Of course, the state of the present earth is definitely in a telestial state and could thereby be classed as part of the telestial kingdom without problem. On the other hand, Doctrine and Covenants 76:89 clearly states that the glory of the telestial "surpasses all understanding" which is NOT the present state of this earth. And, of course, each glory above that surpasses the previous glory. So, I think you overstate the meaning of the temple ceremony in this case. For all you know, the only reference to the telestial kingdom there may well be a typo since every other occurrence seems to speak of the telestial world rather than the telestial kingdom. I realize, though, that this may be taken as a difference without disinction here.

Repentance is required for everyone. Baptism is not required for any but those who will inherit the kingdom of God; otherwise known as the celestial kingdom. This is the official doctrine of the Church and your view is not. Who are you to tell us what "all the laws of heaven" are? I dare say that you do not even know. Worse for your perspective, section 76 does not name any of the required ordinances for those of the terrestrial kingdom, either--and we know that they are not among the wicked who will have to wait for the second resurrection. Only those of the Celestial world contain reference to the ordinances of baptism and confirmation. The only verse you might be able to claim as to ordinances is the peculiarly worded verse 73, which is answered by verses 74-75. In other words, there is a difference between those who never heard and those who heard and "received not the testimony" because they were blinded by the craftiness of man.

Nonetheless, my argument still stands for verses 98-112, apart from the parenthetical statements, as referring to the telestial world and not the sons of Perdition in any way. Christ's doctrine is not false and does not conflict. It is your misundertanding thereof that does. My view also has the advantage of being in line with the doctrine of the Church and the statements of Brigham Young and others regarding the earth being in a telestial state. Yours does not.

[MormonMason]

Me either, but some will be.

And btw, it isn't "total separation" from the Father and Son.

The Terrestrial will enjoy the full presence of the Son, when he personally visits, and the Telestial will receive messages from both of them through messengers, aka angels.

Think of how people today would be thrilled to simply see an angel.

I mentioned only the telestial kingdom, not the terrestrial. The terrestrial is a total separation from the Father and the telestial is a total separation from Father than Son, whose only contact with the Spirit of God at all will be when angels visit from the kingdom above theirs. Those of the terrestrial kingdom receive the Spirit from ministration of celestial personages and those of the telestial kingdom receive of it from those angels of the terrestrial kingdom who receive it from the visitors from the celestial kingdom. But, those in the telestial kingdom never receive the fulness of the Father or Son. Essentially, they are cut off from the Father and the Son and get the Spirit second hand. Sorry, but that would be its own hell to me.

[wenglund]

Since my last post doesn't appear to have been of much help, may I just say that after browsing the Topical Guide under the term "heaven", it seems clear to me that that term is used in various ways in with various meanings throught the Standard Works. In some places it refers to the area above the earth where the clouds or stars are. In some places it refers to the realm of pre-existent spirits. In some places it is in reference to the dwelling place of God. In other places it is place where the spirits of all men will go after this life, and a place for the post-mortal judgement where the spirits of all men will be brought to stand. In other places it is used synonomously with "degrees of glory". Etc., etc.

So, depending upon the connotation of heaven one has in mind, one may rightly claim that there may be one heaven, or three, or even multiple heavens.

The term "hell" also has multiple scriptural connotations.

What this means to me is, that while one can reasonably view post-mortality in binary terms (either a person is going to heaven or hell), and conclude that there is only one heaven which is descret from the one hell; one can also reasonably view post-mortality as a spectrum arrayed from complete hell to complete heaven or complete darkness to complete or celestial glory, with shades or degrees in between, which can be broken out categorically as kingdoms. And, the closer a kingdom (and the resurrected souls of those that will abide there) is to the celestial end of the spectrum, the greater the measure of glory and the less the state of hell.

But, that may just be how I view it, for what that may be worth.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[MormonMason]

Since my last post doesn't appear to have been of much help, may I just say that after browsing the Topical Guide under the term "heaven", it seems clear to me that that term is used in various ways in with various meanings throught the Standard Works. In some places it refers to the area above the earth where the clouds or stars are. In some places it refers to the realm of pre-existent spirits. In some places it is in reference to the dwelling place of God. In other places it is place where the spirits of all men will go after this life, and a place for the post-mortal judgement where the spirits of all men will be brought to stand. In other places it is used synonomously with "degrees of glory". Etc., etc.

So, depending upon the connotation of heaven one has in mind, one may rightly claim that there may be one heaven, or three, or even multiple heavens.

The term "hell" also has multiple scriptural connotations.

What this means to me is, that while one can reasonably view post-mortality in binary terms (either a person is going to heaven or hell), and conclude that there is only one heaven which is descret from the one hell; one can also reasonably view post-mortality as a spectrum arrayed from complete hell to complete heaven or complete darkness to complete or celestial glory, with shades or degrees in between, which can be broken out categorically as kingdoms. And, the closer a kingdom (and the resurrected souls of those that will abide there) is to the celestial end of the spectrum, the greater the measure of glory and the less the state of hell.

But, that may just be how I view it, for what that may be worth.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I would pretty much agree with this assessment. The interchangeability of meaning is very much a problem when trying to determine how the grand picture all fits together. Case in point is the above exchange of ideas. An excellent instance is the term outer darkness. We too long have held the idea that it refers only to the place of the sons of Perdition. But, a quick look at the usage of the phrase in the Book of Matthew reveals yet another meaning that is not readily apparent from English translation. In these passages, judgment of saved Christians is in view in at least one of the occurrences.

[johnny]

How do LDS interpret the words "delivered up the kingdom to God" in 1Cor 15:24 (see below), if the LDS Church teaches three kingdoms after Final Judgment?

1Cor.15

[24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

[cjcampbell]

How do LDS interpret the words "delivered up the kingdom to God" in 1Cor 15:24 (see below), if the LDS Church teaches three kingdoms after Final Judgment?

1Cor.15

[24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Only the celestial kingdom is the kingdom of God. All others are lesser kingdoms.

[fatherofone]

Only the celestial kingdom is the kingdom of God. All others are lesser kingdoms.

errm isn't God over all tho, meaning all glories answer to him

[cjcampbell]

errm isn't God over all tho, meaning all glories answer to him

Yes. But the kingdom of God generally refers to the celestial kingdom, as does the presence of God. That does not mean that God is unaware of what goes on in the other kingdoms, nor does it mean that He is not responsible for them. But in the sense that Johnny was talking about the kingdom of God, it is the celestial kingdom. All others are lesser kingdoms directly ruled and administered by personages other than God the Father.

[Rob Osborn]

johnny,

Perhaps you've hit the darn hammer right on the head with that scripture in Corinthians. The whole point I have been driving at is that Christ perfects the kingdom during the millennium and presents it to the Father. What is interesting is that everyone on the earth at that point will include all but the sons of perdition. There cannot be three kingdoms the Lord delivers up to the Father becasue all are spotless and part oif the one single kingdom of god on the earth.

[MormonMason]

I just wanted to point out that the new Joseph Smith manual also lists Doctrine and Covenants 76:81-85, 100-106, 110-112, as all referring directly to the Telestial Kingdom on its page 223, that the Gospel Principles Manual of the Church gives Doctrine and Covenants 76"81-86, 103-106 as referring to the Telestial Kingdom on its page 298, and, that the Institute of Religion manual for Religion 430 and 431, entitled Doctrines of the Gospel, mentions Doctrine and Covenants 76:81-112 as referring to those who will inherit the Telestial Kingdom on its page 93.

[wenglund]

How do LDS interpret the words "delivered up the kingdom to God" in 1Cor 15:24 (see below), if the LDS Church teaches three kingdoms after Final Judgment?

1Cor.15

[24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

I view it as referring to the kingdom of earth in its fallen state (i.e. mortality or death).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[LifeOnaPlate]

johnny,

Perhaps you've hit the darn hammer right on the head with that scripture in Corinthians. The whole point I have been driving at is that Christ perfects the kingdom during the millennium and presents it to the Father. What is interesting is that everyone on the earth at that point will include all but the sons of perdition. There cannot be three kingdoms the Lord delivers up to the Father becasue all are spotless and part oif the one single kingdom of god on the earth.

This implies that everyone will want to be in the perfect Kingdom.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Concerning being in God's presence: Brigham Young often taught that the Father is aware of all space, that His influence and knowledge do not have bounds. For example, there is a scripture in Alma:

"Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrectionâ??Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life."

Does that mean all are going straight back to literally be with and see God the Father? Brigham Young postulated it is possible to be in God's presence, or home with God, without actually beholding Him:

"Where do the spirits of this people go to, when they lay down their tabernacles? They go into the presence of God, and are at the pleasure of the Almighty. Do they go to the Father and the Son, and there be glorified? No; they do not. If a spirit goes to God who gave it, it does not stay there. We are all the time in the presence of the Lord, but our being in the presence of the Lord, does not make it follow that He is in our presence; the spirits of men are understood to go into the presence of the Lord, when they go into the spiritual world," (Journal of Discourses 3:80).