Is There A Way To Block Mormon Relatives From Baptizing Me When I Croak?

[myleague]

If you become Jewish you can be put on that list to be excluded from LDS temples. Join the LDS faith, join the Jewish faith... Not a lot of options.

[Hammer]

On one visit to my wife's family in St. George a few years ago I got into a conversation with her Uncle about geneology. At the time I just thought it was an interesting discussion but thought it was odd that he was writing all of the information down. I assumed it was for personal family record (and it may have been). If he did take the information to submit it to the church, I understand he meant no harm by it. But would rather not it happen just the same.

I have since found that sometimes this information is submitted for baptism of the dead. Is there any way to stop this from happening? I know a lot of Jewish people made an issue about it at one point in time so I assume there has to be some sort of process.

No offense, I just would rather make my own choices about my soul when I bite the dust (assuming the church is still around by then). I'm also concerend about those that have passed before now that were mentioned.

If it isn't a true ordinance with God's power-- then why are you worried? Maybe you prefer the wolves eat your body and bones because there isn't anything on the other side-- no other side. Or perhaps you feel that the baptism means you are forced to become LDS?

NO-- it only gives you the choice--- agency after this life-- and seeings how you are fighting it so hard here, I think the Lord will accept your answer of NO and send you where you really want to be-- among others like yourself.

So what is the problem? Do you think people who are prayed for after their death in the other churches care one whit once they are dead? Do you think you have any power here or in the here after?

Think again. God rules.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mods can I request this thread be close the horse has truley been beaten to death over and over in the 9 pages here. If not that is fine. Just wanted to make a suggestion.

[MorningStar]

My 2 cents, because I've thought of this before.

I'm an ex-member, from a very faithful LDS family. I'm sure that as soon as possible after I die, me and my wife will (by proxy) be hurried through the temple ordinances. I don't like it. I've rejected Mormonism, outright. I find it (absolutely in its earliest form, and to a lesser extent its current form) offensive. I want nothing to do with it personally, I don't want to be associated with it personally. I find the thought of my name being uttered in a temple, and somebody being baptized in my place, disturbing. I don't want it to happen.

That's how I feel. I know most people on this board certainly don't feel that way, and think that I should not. But I do find just about everybody's dismissive attitude about Oracle's (and presumably my) affirmative desire not to be rushed through the temple by proxy to be pretty arrogant, and certainly thoughtless. The "if it's true, great, if it's not, it won't matter" argument avoids the point I think Oracle was making and the one that I do--I don't want it to happen, period. Your agreement with the reasons why really shouldn't matter. Like Oracle said, it's a matter of respect, which this thread has been entirely lacking.

And as to baptizing in the name of Satan, what's the problem with baptizing living persons into the Church of Satan by proxy? How would you feel if evangelicals started "saving" Mormons by going through LDS membership rolls and casting out devils by proxy, and then baptizing by proxy? Would you not be offended? Would you not be outraged if it was done on your behalf despite your attempt to stop it? Wouldn't the argument that it's harmless if it's bogus and great if it's not seem arrogant to you? How is that any different whether somebody is alive or dead?

Unfortunately, I think the notion of most here that Mormonism is "true" and eternal makes it difficult to understand why people like me would not want it to occur, and therefore rather dismissive of any request we'd make in that regard.

I seriously wouldn't care. It has no validity.

[Daniel Peterson]

I find the thought of my name being uttered in a temple, and somebody being baptized in my place, disturbing. I don't want it to happen.

Are you disturbed by the fact that your name might sometimes be uttered elsewhere, too?

This seems positively bizarre to me. And the notion of trying to make sure that it doesn't ever happen strikes me as not only weird but utterly futile. Somewhere today, somebody is likely to utter all or part of your name. (It would be fairly pathetic if nobody ever did.) Someone may even pray for you sometime. That's just the way life is. We all have to learn to endure such pain -- and, sometimes, to cope with even worse agonies. It's part of living.

On the other hand, you could (I suppose) try to copyright your name. If I understood his 84-page legal complaint against me from several years ago correctly, one of the things that the Rev. Kurt Van Gorden found worthy of $4.5 million of my money [!!] was the fact that I and others had dared to use his name -- a name for which, he told the court, he had applied for copyright protection. (I have no reason to believe that such protection was granted, but, if it was, I can see that as a way of blocking vicarious baptisms, as well as an excellent method of extorting early-retirement income from innumerable so-called "innocent" people such as mailmen, IRS employees, sales clerks, policemen, dental hygienists, auto mechanics, and children.)

I don't want it to happen, period.

But the fact is that it's going to happen, whether you like it or not. Fifteen generations from now, one of your several million kinsmen is virtually certain to be unaware of your early twenty-first century attitude toward this subject and -- barring the rise of a totalitarian state that forbids free religious expression -- he or she will devote twenty to thirty seconds to immersing someone in water, or to being immersed in water, while your name is pronounced. I know of no certain way to prevent that horrific atrocity from happening other than global annihilation of the human race or, at least, of all Mormons.

A squirrel will also probably defecate on your grave. I can't understand why you would care. In any event, you can't realistically stop it, and it seems fairly pointless to work oneself up over things that one cannot control.

How would you feel if evangelicals started "saving" Mormons by going through LDS membership rolls and casting out devils by proxy, and then baptizing by proxy? Would you not be offended? Would you not be outraged if it was done on your behalf despite your attempt to stop it? Wouldn't the argument that it's harmless if it's bogus and great if it's not seem arrogant to you?

Apart from the matter of illicit access to confidential membership records, I wouldn't care even slightly. Not one teensy, tiny little bit.

How is that any different whether somebody is alive or dead?

The only real difference is that there is even less basis for a claim of harm if the person is dead than if she's alive.

[AddamS]

Expositor: what is it you believe or imagine could happen to your soul in the afterlife if a lds proxy baptism is done on your name? I am curious what your thoughts are?

I have hesitated to respond to this because I really don't aim to offend anybody, but I think the question (or some form of it) has been asked of me several times so it warrants an answer. Hopefully you will all see some humor in this as well...

Theoretically, I cross the "River Jordan" and come face to face with St. Peter:

Me: Holy Crap! It's St. Peter! I thought you were just an old wive's tale!

Pete: Well, to be fair, I'm just appearing to you as St. Peter because that's what you most easily associate someone in my position as...

Me: Oh, well that's confusing.... Anyway, what's the deal? Am I getting in or should I count on having lunch with Hitler for eternity?

Pete: (Opens book) Well, let's see here.. no religious background listed...

Me: Oh crap, I can't believe it! I figured everybody couldn't be the only way so they must be ill-informed somewhere along the way. How could I have been so mistaken! Woe is me!

Pete: Easy there, Drama Queen, all of them are wrong to some degree

Me: That's kind of what I thought, does that mean I'm out?

Pete: Not necessarily, it shows here you have been a good person. You loved your family and provided for them, good husband, good father. I think things look pretty good here. I just need to stamp this form and....

(Phone Rings)

Hold on a minute, I just need to take this

Me: No prob, I got nothing but time

Pete: (Into phone) Yeah, he's right here, really, oh my... (hangs up)

Me: Hey! Its my grandpa and grandma, and my mom and dad! I'll be over there in just a few minutes. I just have to finish up some paperwork....I hope. So, Petey, what was that?

Pete: I have some bad news for you, kid.

Me: What happened?

Pete: It seems that you have just been baptized by your wife's uncle Frank

Me: Frank? I hardly even know that guy, I think I met him at a family reunion once, his wife made green Jello Salad. It was horrible!

Pete: Yeah, that's the one. Apparently he just got dunked for you.

Me: So what, he takes a bath and you get a call?

Pete: Well, the way it works up here is that while you don't need to be religious, but if you don't take steps to protect your "soul" from false religions, it's pretty much the same thing as joining them.

Me: What? That doesn't even make sense? They told me if it were true I could elect not to accept it so I didn't stop it.

Pete: Yeah, kind of a bummer huh?

Me: No kidding! So much for free agency!

Pete: If I had a nickel for every time I have heard that before I'd be a rich angel, not that money matters up here, but you get my point.

Me: So, I guess this is it huh? Well, nice meeting you. hope to see you soon!

Pete: Kind of unlikely pal.

(Grandfather on other side of fence disappears in a puff of black smoke)

Me: What about my grandfather over there on the other side of the gate? Where did he go? Now my Grandmother is gone too! What's happening?

Pete: Frank got your whole family on the list.

Me: Where'd they go?

Pete: You'll see them soon enough, but there is good news....

Me: Really, there's good news?

Pete: Yeah, your Uncle in law Frank is going to join you too. And I bet his wife can bring some of that green Jello salad!

Me: That's not funny.

Pete: I know, but I like to keep things light.....

[LifeOnaPlate]

Pete: Well, the way it works up here is that while you don't need to be religious, but if you don't take steps to protect your "soul" from false religions, it's pretty much the same thing as joining them.

Me: What? That doesn't even make sense? They told me if it were true I could elect not to accept it so I didn't stop it.

If I understand you correctly, you believe there is a chance that a proxy baptism would cause God to deny you access to heaven. Is that what you are saying?

[AddamS]

If I understand you correctly, you believe there is a chance that a proxy baptism would cause God to deny you access to heaven. Is that what you are saying?

Yes.

Is the idea really any crazier than many Chirstian/Jewish/Muslim beliefs about things that can keep you out?

[Daniel Peterson]

Is the idea really any crazier than many Chirstian/Jewish/Muslim beliefs about things that can keep you out?

Yes, it is.

Christians and Muslims and Jews never, so far as I'm aware, say that you can be kept out of heaven by things that other people do after you're dead.

[MorningStar]

Yes.

Is the idea really any crazier than many Chirstian/Jewish/Muslim beliefs about things that can keep you out?

It's a completely irrational fear. Why would God keep someone out of Heaven over something they had no control over?

[AddamS]

Yes, it is.

Christians and Muslims and Jews never, so far as I'm aware, say that you can be kept out of heaven by things that other people do after you're dead.

They also can't be "helped out" after they die either. So we are in uncharted territory here. But thank you for the well-thought out response...

[MorningStar]

Besides, the work won't be done for you until you've at least been dead for a year. What are they going to do, kick you out of Heaven?

[SolarPowered]

Besides, the work won't be done for you until you've at least been dead for a year.

I was unaware that there is a one-year wait time.

Does anyone know why that is?

[AddamS]

Besides, the work won't be done for you until you've at least been dead for a year. What are they going to do, kick you out of Heaven?

Why not? If you wait a year to BFD it implies there is some movement between "kingdoms".

Unless you believe in purgatory. I don't think you do but please correct me if I am wrong.

[ruski_canuk]

This argument seems ridiculous to me. Does it bother you if I jump up and down 5 times repeating your name while humming the theme to sound of music ?

If you don't believe in Mormonism then you won't believe the ritual to mean anything. If you do believe in it, then you will want it done. I don't see any more complexity than that.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Yes.

Is the idea really any crazier than many Chirstian/Jewish/Muslim beliefs about things that can keep you out?

So you honestly believe it? Or you are calling the notion "crazy." Which is it?

[juliann]

I don't suppose LDS members would like The Church if Satan baptising their members without a say in the matter for the same reason.

Not unless they are digging up bodies to do it. Do you try to micromanage the universe while you are living or do you just want to do it after you are dead?

(Nice touch throwing in Satan, though).

[AddamS]

So you honestly believe it? Or you are calling the notion "crazy." Which is it?

I honestly consider it a possibility.

[urroner]

I honestly consider it a possibility.

It's possible, but is it really probable? it's also possible that I'm supermodel Linda Evangelista, but not probable.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I honestly consider it a possibility.

So if I read you correctly, as you have asserted in this thread, there is no possibility that the LDS Church is actually God's Church, and that a proxy baptism could possitively affect your salvation, but there is a possibility that such baptism could damn you to hell.

Seriously?

[MorningStar]

Why not? If you wait a year to BFD it implies there is some movement between "kingdoms".

Unless you believe in purgatory. I don't think you do but please correct me if I am wrong.

If our view of Heaven is correct, then God will approve of your baptism, right? If not, the alternate view is that judgement happens right after you die and you go to Heaven or Hell. As far as I know, in non-LDS theology, once you're in Heaven, you're there for good.

[MorningStar]

I was unaware that there is a one-year wait time.

Does anyone know why that is?

I'm not positive about the time frame, but with missionary work going on on the other side of the veil, maybe it is a time for the person to learn before they make their decision.

[AddamS]

So if I read you correctly, as you have asserted in this thread, there is no possibility that the LDS Church is actually God's Church, and that a proxy baptism could possitively affect your salvation, but there is a possibility that such baptism could damn you to hell.

Seriously?

I have never said that the LDS church being correct is an IMpossibility. It is just as likely as any other belief system or lack thereof.

I don't believe it is correct, but that doesn't mean it most certainly is not.

Seriously.

[cdowis]

I was unaware that there is a one-year wait time.

Does anyone know why that is?

Probably for the same reason a widow waits for a year before re-marrying. It would really be tacky to have a foot-race to the temple after the funeral. It shows a sense of reverence and respect for the individual as well as the temple ordinances.

[SolarPowered]

I don't suppose LDS members would like The Church if Satan baptising their members without a say in the matter for the same reason.

Is that a Godwin's Law violation?